Took In Two 1 Yr Old Ferals

[calicosrspecial]

I had to take these photos of Panda. You'll have to excuse my unmade bed... I couldn't pass this opportunity up:
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He is SUCH a goober.

Seriously, how adorable is Panda?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Soooo I have a question now.

Is there any way I can tell how old Sandy really is? Im beginning to wonder if she is older than Panda because... ...she may be Panda's mother. I don't know for sure as I saw another cat way back when Panda was a kitten that appeared to be the mother.

Panda is suckling on Sandy. I'm alittle nervous about this given she had surgery not to long ago. Sandy and Panda have begun grooming and snuggling together fairly often now... Sandy isn't as afraid as she used to be .. Its interesting the more I think of it these cats definitely had lives before I caught them... They were pretty much always together - usually the mother cat -weens - her kittens off and although Panda is still young he's definitely older than the weening period. I can't tell if Sandy is his literal girlfriend or if Sandy is his mother.

When we left food for them at the office, Panda usually came first and Sandy would stay back until no humans were in site, then eat... that or eat when she knew we couldnt get to her. Panda was a bit more bold. They 'seemed' the same size - Sandy alittle bigger maybe... If Sandy is older that would explain why its more difficult for her to adopt...

meanwhile how long does it take for a cat to heal after being spayed? If Sandy is still healing Im not sure I like the idea of Panda suckling on her... She doesn't 'seem' uncomfortable and seems to be okay...but if I need to do something what should I do?

EDIT:

Well, another interesting thing just happened. I was feeling uncomfortable about the whole thing (would really like another week to pass before Panda starts licking/suckling Sandy) and decided to get Panda's attention. As not to startle them too much I came down on the floor and approached them from just below the mattress (they were on my bed) and Panda came right to me when I called his name... he sat at the edge of the mattress and stared at me for moments and I softly spoke to him and extended my hand up to his paws and gently rubbed his paws with my fingers and he didnt move or react he just remained there and stared at me...then he put his head close to my finger and I slowly moved it to his cheek and he remained there and still and he let me touch his cheek... for the first time I was able to really pet his cheek and he didnt adverse against me ... although I was still alittle cautious and he had is eyes locked on me I just gave him slow blinks and softly spoke to him while rubbing his cheeks... ...and he then....closed his eyes and fell asleep.... I couldn't believe it.

It is really difficult to determine the ages. Vets are good at it but it is hard. It is usually looking at their teeth etc.

It seems to me that Sandy is young. But I don't see her in person. Cats can have kittens at an early age so it is possible.

It is very possible Sandy is his mother. It is difficult to know.

Do you notice Sandy licking her incision? Or any discharge?

It has been a week so she should be healed now. I do think it is best Panda doesn't do things there (especially because they will knead and that can't cause issues) but she should be past any risk. Just monitor and try to keep Panda from doing that the best you can.

WOW. Panda. You have really built trust. Often times a cat will recoil when their paws are touched. Often times a cat is cautious wanting to initiate touch but just can't do it. Panda might have been that way. I would still let Panda initiate contact but it sounds like it went well. The fact Panda closed his eyes is a BIG sign of trust. NO cat would close their eyes to a potential threat. That is why eye kisses are so good as it shows we trust them.

And Sandy enjoying the bed is great. She is trusting your scent.

Overall, this is amazing. I would try to distract Panda from suckling etc but just call his name. If it hurt Sandy would stop it I would imagine with a good swat, etc. Other than that just keep doing what you are doing especially building trust with food with Sandy. And you can sit near her on the floor and just talk lovingly and confidently to her like you do with Panda. Take it slow with Panda don't force affection (not saying you are).

You are doing amazing with them. Panda is way ahead of plan and is doing GREAT and Sandy has made unbelievable progress and is really coming around (faster than I thought she would). Just keep her as quiet as possible for a few more days but I think she is past the risk of opening anything (as long as you are not seeing discharge or redness, swelling etc).

Just keep up the great work. You are doing amazing with them!!

 

[MikeAW2010]

I can't tell if there's any swelling or discharge. I'd have to get pretty close to her to do that and I don't think she would have that... it does worry me alittle bit so Im hoping nothing is wrong there and definitely hoping that it isnt the reason Panda was suckling.

He didn't seem to do this today. Sandy went to the other side of the room.

Panda has been trying to get out of the bedroom when I open the door and on one attempt he surprised me and managed to do so to confront my resident cats. Nothing happened, basically they sniffed each other. Rabbit still seems edgy on the situation but Panda seems comfortable with Rabbit. He explored for a moment then went back to the bedroom.

I decided to try to be a bit more social with Sandy than normal as I'm trying to gain her trust incase sometime in the future that I may need her to trust me. I layed down on the floor and extended my hand with some cat treats and slid my hand across the floor (so it would be well below her and on the ground) and opened my palm with treats...she sniffed my hand and the treats and erupted a hiss... I left the treats and removed my hand. Later today, when I fed her... I slid my hand fairly close to her, not as close as before - just enough so she could see it infront of her...left it there for about a minute and then pulled back and slid her food bowl to her and then I continued laying there and gently spoke to her while she ate. Some progress was obtained there because in the past she wouldnt consider eating if I was anywhere near around and today she did eat. After she was done however she got up and walked to the other side of the room then later snuggled up with Panda.

She had been looking at me since then and seemed very edgy so I left the room and let her alone for awhile and went to play with the resident cats, then came back and put on some soft music for her, now they're both asleep... I never really put much mind and thought into relationships between cats and other cats or even animals and other animals but I am really beginning to believe Panda and Sandy actually truly love each other.

I guess in a way I'm worried that Sandy may never trust me. I dont want to push her though and between them both Sandy has always been alot more skittish than Panda...and she isnt as bad as she used to be. I just have to remain calm and be patient.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Those are fantastic pictures. They love each other. Fantastic!! They are SO ADORABLE!! They are loving life!!

I am not worried. If something was wrong you could tell. Something would just seem "not right". I get a sense Sandy is doing great. The vet seems to have done a really good job.

Yes, do your best to keep Panda in "his" room and away from the other cats. We'll have to start the formal intro process soon. I want to get Sandy is a little better place first though. But we want to make sure the resident cats hav only positive associations. The biggest mistake I see is that people put cats together before they are ready and that sets the process back. The intro process is done to make positive associations so the cats view the other cats as "cool". No threat. In other words, when we get them to meet they think "I know that cat, that cat is cool, that cat is no threat, they wont hurt me or take my food away". That is the whole goal of intros. To get them to feel safe and secure and confident with the other cats.

That is great. Hissing is just communication. It is a "hey, you better not try anything". The good thing is you listened to her and backed off letting her know you didn't mean harm. And sure enough, the next time she ate with you close to her. It just takes time to trust. To show her that you don't mean harm. It sounds like a very positive encounter. A positive association with you and food. It just take time, don't push her just go at her time table.

I think Sandy just has that look. I don't think she was edgy. Of course, I don;t see it but that is just my feeling. I have seen that look before. I call it more of a model pouty look. I have a cat just like Sandy with that look. I think she has a lot more trust to you than you realize. I say that because of how well she seems to be doing.

I take one paragraph at a time so I can respond to each one. I just got to your point about them loving each other. Yep, that is exactly what my though was when I see the pics and see the actions. Panda is really helpful in Sandy's progress.

I have no doubt Sandy will trust you. She already trusts you a lot but I know there is more. Now, some cats never get 100% trust. We'll see where Sandy can get but you seem to have a way with cats so if there is anyone to maximize trust I can say I think it is you.

Don't worry, like you said stay calm and confident with them, love them and they will understand that. It is hard to explain but you'll see it.

Just keep up the great work. When Sandy gets more confident then we'll start the intro process. The only problem is I have to be away for the first 3 weeks in Sept and will not have the ability to be online so we'll probably have to do it after that.

Keep up the great work. Please try to keep Panda and Sandy in their territory and the resident cats in theirs so as not to create any negative associations.

 

[MikeAW2010]

The romantic night ended abruptly last night when Panda started playing rough with Sandy after waking up with 10 cat lives worth of energy. I had to break up about 5 cat fights with Sandy growling and hissing at Panda who wouldn't stop playing with her... I started having to call Panda, sometimes even loudly which usually stopped it - then I had to try to wear him out at some odd 2 - 3am by playing with him... but something interesting happened during that session. I pulled out my new laser pen (Panda goes absolutely crazy for it...its adorable... Sandy on the other hand usually just ignored it altogether.)

I pulled out the laser pen and flashed it on the wall and as expected -DART- ...but...it wasn't Panda....It was Sandy...just out of nowhere she broke out of her shy / collected cattitude and went full on play after the laser. Panda and myself just stood back shocked lol. She chased it for a good 15 minutes... Panda played afterward but after I put the laser down, he continued trying to initiate play with Sandy who just wasnt having it...because I couldn't get Panda to stop I eventually had to lock him in the Kennel for the night - didn't get to bed till about 5am.

Tonight... I slowly approached Panda and Sandy with cat treats... in my palm. Sandy was laying on my bed and Panda smelled the treats so he came up as well... I moved my hand halfway to Sandy and opened my palm, keeping my head as low as the matress and avoided staring at her. Panda ate half the treats right out of my hand without hesitation. Sandy began to move like she wanted to do the same but seemed very uncertain so I dumped the rest of them off infront of her and she began to eat them while I was still laying there practically right infront of her. I remained very still and just spoke softly to her. After she was done, she turned and looked at me for a bit, but didnt leave the bed...she slowly just laid down right infront of me (within reaching distance) and just kept an eye on me. I just gave her eye kisses and kept talking softly to her until both her and Panda ended up falling asleep.

.... now I need to find someplace else to sleep

 

[calicosrspecial]

Yes, that can happen. Panda wasn't listening to Sandy. :/ Trusts her too much. Did she swat at him at all? It is good that he stopped when you called him.

You may want to look into some non-interactive toys for Panda. Mine love to play football. I get a ball that they can't grab with their claws and throw in the air and they kick it around. There are other toys as well.

WOW, Sandy playing?!?!?!?!?! GREAT!!!! She is really coming out of her shell. This is great. Play is going to be a part part of building her confidence.

FANTASTIC!!! I use food with ferals all the time and to me it is the best way to build trust. This is fantastic what you are doing. Sandy is really doing well and responding to your love. GREAT work!!

Hahahaha, it is worth it. Wait until you have two kitties sharing your bed with you!!!

Keep trying to play with Sandy and of course Panda. Think about some toys they can play with when you are not there or are asleep. See if you can get some kind of cat trees or shelving so they can run up and down and burn some energy also. Things like that. And keep feeding and showing them love (be calm, confident and talk lovingly and give eye kisses).

Keep up the great work!!

 

[MikeAW2010]

Panda did sleep pretty close to me a few nights ago.

I'm starting to have problems with Panda getting overly aggressively playful with Sandy and Sandy hissing all night while trying to get Panda off of her. I can't touch Panda so its not easy putting him in the Kennel (which I wasn't able to last night). He seems to really need someone to play at his level. I had to go to Houston yesterday so I was gone all day and was too tired to really play full out with Panda when I got back.

Sandy will sometimes walk toward me now when I have food. Sometimes. She's still extremely hesitant about it but I usually get down on the ground and slide it to her and she eats while keeping an eye on me. I'm trying to get her more used to my presence so I have gotten down near her and slid treats to her. While doing this she did manage to swat my hand, it wasn't as painful as I thought it would be. I remained calm and kept feeding her.

Baxter darted in here while I was re-entering the room and in process of picking him up to take him back out I accidentally dropped him and Sandy was not happy to see this. She was on edge all day.

What should I do about Panda? I really need to get him to a point where I can touch and handle him if necessary.

 

[calicosrspecial]

GREAT!!! I have a feeling Panda will be when it gets colder.

How aggressive is he playing? What exactly is he doing? Is it possible to get video of it? Does it possibly look like mating at all?

Typically the cat (Sandy) will make it very well known that play etc is not an option. Hissing but also swatting. Hopefully Panda will get the hint.

Sandy is doing great as are you with her. Remember to be calm and confident and act normally with her while giving food. When she swatted you was it with her nails and did she draw blood? The key is really to act normal and calm and confident as you did. Cats will sense that and calm down and enjoy the food.

Yes, an "outsider" will cause the other cats some stress. BUT nothing bad really happened. Do your best to keep them apart but I know it does happen.

With Panda, it is difficult. This is where we need Sandy to stand up to him and tell him no. All I can say is do your best to drain as much energy as possible with play and also toys he can play with by himself (like a ball that he can't hook with his nails and throw and break things). If you can arrange things that he can run up and down and around that can help drain his energy. So cat trees, dressers, cat shelving if possible. If you can have something where they can safely (without tipping it into the window) look out of the window that can attract his attention.

As to picking him up it is really just building that trust as you have been doing. Some cats never allow being picked up but I think Panda will. But just take it slow as it will not happen overnight. Build trust. We'll have to get to petting before trying to pick him up. I know it is frustrating but it s best to not rush things and have a setback. I think Panda will be able to be picked up in time though. I'll give you some tips later on when the time is right.

 

[MikeAW2010]

Her claws were extended. No blood was drawn but I have 4 cats, 2 of which are much bigger than Sandy who regularly play with my arms / hands...not the best training but...Im kind of used to getting scratches / scars.... although I definitely dont want to be attacked.

I've been laying near Sandy for a good portion of the day while talking to her. Will do so one more time before I go to bed. Should I continue to offer my hand for her to smell?

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is great no blood was drawn. Cats typically know what they are doing so she consciously knew not to hurt you. She didn't want to hurt you. That is a very good sign. It tells me that she trusts you and doesn't really fear you.

Perfect. Again, building that positive association, trust. Showing her you are no threat.

You can offer your hand. I don't think it is necessary. Always best to do it with treats at this point. Just don't force it and watch her body language. Make sure your hand is low (but doesn't act like prey). Make it a positive experience. If she seems relaxed and happy it is great. I think it will probably be a while before she rubs on your hand or head butts it. Just keep your emotions calm and confident and talk lovingly to her.

Great work with her!! She is way ahead of where I thought she would be. You are doing great!!

 

[MikeAW2010]

Panda is becoming more and more like a house cat. He darts out of the bedroom as soon as I open the door and immediately greets the resident cats. He started rubbing up against Baxter and Baxter initiates play with him. Rabbit still seems not to like Panda very much but generally tolerates him. Panda tries to be friendly toward Rabbit. Ginger and Marshmallow show no difference in behavior. At night though Panda is getting more aggressive with Sandy and its becoming difficult to control and its also waking me up at obscene hours. I play with Panda when I can but sometimes I dont get enough time to.

Today, however; Panda allowed me to pet him while he was resting with Sandy. They were both on my bed like before and I crawled up to the matress and slowly stuck my hand out at him. He offered no objection. I strokes his paws and he basically allowed it and allowed me to kind of tickle his paws.. then he allowed me to stroke his cheek, and fell asleep on my hand. While he was asleep I also managed to stroke his head and the rest of his face. Sandy was laying her head on Panda's hip at the time and she basically watched me seeming somewhat on alarm but I spoke softly to her and she eventually just turned her attention away and fell back asleep.

Sandy is... sloooooooooowly coming along... I can't touch her but she doesn't immediately attack if I put my hand out infront of her usually. A few times she will raise her paw as if warning me she's about to swat and I'll retract at that point... but I usually leave food when I place my hand infront of her.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I think we need to start a formal introduction process now. Feeding the cats on each side of a closed door. Starting a good distance away and slowly moving the bowls forward by a few inches each day monitoring how they eat, what their body language is, etc. Making sure they are having a "positive encounter".

I really want to keep Panda separated from the other cats. I know he wants to see them and get to know them BUT it is important to build a trust between them so that they will get along. In the intro process we start by making positive associations between them using food and just their scent. So they smell the other cat and they are enjoying food and they think positive things and it is positive because there is not threat, no chasing, etc. And we just build that trust over time.

It is very common for the new cat to be better in wanting to like the other cats because they don't own that territory so aren't as defensive about defending that territory. Cats are territorial so anything that threatens their territory (whether in reality or just in their minds) can cause issues. Often times early on the resident (existing) cats accept the new cat but them things can go downhill. It is for the most part good that the resident cats are acting that way but it is too early to tell if it would continue without going through the intro process. The reaction by Rabbit is pretty normal and tells me that we need to make positive associations.

Now the good news is, Panda seems confident and confident cats are less likely to attack or be attacked. We need to work on continuing to build the confidence of the resident cats especially Rabbit.

And go through the formal introduction process. To let all the cats know that the other cats are positive and do not pose any threat to their territory or safety (physical) or affect their access to food etc.

I will include links to explain the formal introduction process at the end of this and will go through it with you as we move through the steps. The only issues is I do leave for a week until the en of Sept and will not have access to the internet.

When you write Panda is "aggressive" with Sandy. Can you please describe? Is he just rough playing or just wanting to play? What is his body language like? Is his tail swishing? Is his tail big? Are his ears back? Etc.

How is Sandy reacting? Growling? hissing? Swatting? Biting? Running?

How do they act after? Any walking low? Hiding? Avoiding areas? Etc.

Now the fact they are sleeping together that tells me it doesn't sound bad in a relationship way.

Panda is doing amazingly well. He is responding to your love. Fantastic. I am also really proud and impressed the way Sandy is reacting. On the bed and allows you to be there. Again, trust is being built, she is responding to your love. TRUST!! Fantastic. Honestly, Sandy is way ahead of where I thought she would be. Keep up the great work. Don't force anything but continue to build that trust using food, letting them know you love them, etc. Sandy is doing great.

Keep up the great work. You are doing fantastically!!

Here are the formal introduction process links.

How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide

https://www.aspcapro.org/sites/default/files/new-cat-introductions-aspca_0.pdf

The Do's and Don'ts of Introducing Cats | Tips & Tricks | Jackson Galaxy Store

 

[MikeAW2010]

Panda is mainly playing, he just won't let up when Sandy is showing she doesn't want to play. His tail is swaying and ears up. Sandy is hissing and swatting.

I managed to pet Panda again and once again he fell asleep on my hand. Its seeming I can kind of pet him when he's tired and about to sleep. Not so much when he's active, but he doesn't attack or hiss at me anymore.

Sandy on the other hand is being very random.

Once in awhile I can put my hand close to her and it will be fine and she'll ignore it, other times she will swat at it and hiss. She watched me pet Panda and didn't object to it even though my hand was on his face right infront of her. I put my hand down infront of her and she raises her paw like she's going to swat and I usually manage to retract in time...sometimes I can't and take the hit.

I guess what I'm trying to do is show Sandy my hands are not a threat. I'm not sure if there's a better way to do this.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is what I figured. They love each other but Panda just has so much energy and wants to play. Just keep trying to drain his energy and give him things like cat trees, toys he can play with by himself, maybe a ball he can't pick up and throw, etc. Sandy will probably tell him as well at some point............

AWESOME!!! It is a process. He will come around. He is a sweetie.

Yes, she will be. BUT she has REALLY done well and is well ahead of where I thought she would be and most cats would be given her background. We'll see how affectionate she will be but I am confident she is going to be a great cat. She is doing really well. Just go at her pace, don't force things.

That is normal. She is just still building trust. Just make positive associations and don't force things with her. Just keep using food, etc. The more confident and happy she is the more she will come along.

Yes. IF she really thought you were a true threat she would attack (or run). She isn't. The fact she shows restraint, hiss, swat tells me she doesn't want to hurt you but you are just into her personal space. It isn't worrisome at all. Just keep making positive associations with food, being calm, confident and loving to her. Don't force affection. The more instances there are positives and no negatives the more trust she will have. Being a feral is a tough life and they have to be defensive to survive. So it is a process to build that trust. Some ferals will never get to be lap cats BUT they can have great lives.

Don't worry, Sandy is doing great and well ahead of schedule. You are doing a great job.

Let me know if or when you are thinking about feeding by the closed door to start the intro process. The only thing I worry about is I have to be away and will not have internet access. If you do and sense any negativity then take a step back and try to keep everything as positive as possible. If you want to wait until after I am able to be back that it fine and may be better.

Keep up the great work. You are doing fantastically!!

 

[MikeAW2010]

Sooo a bit of an update.

Sandy and Panda have made it extremely convinient for me to feed them near the door. They seem to know when its time to eat and will come up to the door and wait for me to come in with food so I can pretty much leave it right infront of the door and they will eat there while positioning the resident cats food infront of the door.

Panda is 'extremely' energetic and has been triggering fights with Sandy - one so bad that Sandy had her claws dug into him while dragging him across the floor and hissing. He didnt seem hurt just baffled.

Panda and the resident cats have made contact a few times because my family came to stay here for about 3 weeks and when they enter my room he immediately surges out and they dont feel comfortable enough to stop him (which I don't blame)... He got used to my family much quicker than he got used to me. He even allowed my mother to pet him once.

Sandy on the otherhand, If I get my hand too close she will still swat and hiss. I'm just hoping one day she adjusts a bit more.

 

[FarmersWife24]

With ferals it just takes time and patience. When mine was doing the hissing and swatting, the hissing seemed to be a stress release, like letting steam out of a valve. I just gave him space. I remained calm saying things like, “It’s ok, kitty. I’ll give you some space,” in a calm voice and then I walked away. Swats were not rewarded with any kind of attention.

My feral male, who was 1 1/2 years old when I trapped him is now over two years old and he’s my little buddy. We snuggle, he grooms me, talks to me a lot, lets me hold him, and let’s me trim his nails. I introduced him to one of our barn cats who needed to come inside and they are now BFFs.

 

[MikeAW2010]

With ferals it just takes time and patience. When mine was doing the hissing and swatting, the hissing seemed to be a stress release, like letting steam out of a valve. I just gave him space. I remained calm saying things like, “It’s ok, kitty. I’ll give you some space,” in a calm voice and then I walked away. Swats were not rewarded with any kind of attention.

My feral male, who was 1 1/2 years old when I trapped him is now over two years old and he’s my little buddy. We snuggle, he grooms me, talks to me a lot, lets me hold him, and let’s me trim his nails. I introduced him to one of our barn cats who needed to come inside and they are now BFFs.

Just wondering, did you ever initiate any kind of petting or did you more so just stand back?

 

[FarmersWife24]

I did. I was sitting on the floor with a closed hand, back of my hand toward him, not making eye contact and speaking very softly. He got to smell my first two fingers and then I used them, still with a closed hand, to rub the side of his face, more along the jaw where he could put his scent on me.

If I moved my other hand, it would startle him. Petting sessions would be short but increasing in frequency, and he’d get a treat at first.

With swatting, I found it usually happened when he had more energy, like when I’d get up in the morning. He was still nocturnal. I did not reward his swatting with attention or play. I would gently say, “No” and do something else and ignore him for awhile. Over time, he quit.

 

[FarmersWife24]

At times, I let Binx come to me when he was ready but I had to initiate contact quite a bit. One thing that also helped was that I used a baby monitor with a camera to watch him at night. I wanted to see where his boundaries were. When he started exploring the house and sitting near my bedroom at night (my door closed), I knew it was time to go for the petting. I think it was about 6 weeks.

 

[MikeAW2010]

Sandy is getting more playful. She surprised me a bit yesterday as I found her playing with loose objects in the open. I initiated some play with some string and she chased it and played for quite awhile. She didnt get too close to me but I was atleast able to play.

I've been starting to try to pet Panda first as he's the most friendly of the two. He doesnt swat or hiss but he's still apprehensive over it. I guess I need to try with Sandy as well. If she swats, do I just firmly tell her no and withdraw from her? Also with treats, did you leave a free treat so they would know you have them before petting them or was being pet the absolute only way they got a treat?