Time for a cat behaviorist...

Kvla

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Hi all!
I’ve been posting a lot about my cat as she’s been growing up and all the problems I’ve been having with her. This is my first cat and I’m really struggling to even like her. Her and I definitely have a bond issue and while I’d never euthanize her or rehome her to someone I don’t know, (if I were to rehome her it’d be to my roommate because she loves my roommate) it’s sad to feel like she’s not mine. So, I contacted a couple cat behaviorists in the area, I filled out multiple pre-assessment forms and I sent them my history. I’m feeling really guilty that it came to this point but I’m really just at my last straw.
If any of you have any last minute suggestions here is her history:


I adopted my cat from a friend who found the kittens on her farm. When I took her to the vet, they estimated that she was about 4 weeks old. She was weaned too early. She was very sweet and cuddly, never purred unless she was kneading, but also very curious and energetic as a kitten should be. I played with my hands and didn’t start to correct the behavior until she was a couple months old.
At a couple months old, she was being a kitten and climbing up on furniture. I talked to my veterinarian (who was not Dr. Stacy at the time) and she suggested I get cat trees and scratching posts. I had asked about nail caps and she had told me that many of their clinic cats used them and that they worked really well and stayed on for quite a while. So, I invested in some cat trees, scratching posts, and some nail caps. The nail caps didn’t stay on well, and fell off after about a week. Getting them put on was traumatic, because she did not handle being restrained very well at the vet clinic and it cost $35 to get them reapplied, even at a lower cost clinic. It got to the point where she needed to be sedated for her nail trims/caps. I started to do it myself, because I didn’t want to have to spend $35 on nail trims/caps and didn’t want her to be sedated so often. (To be fair, the receptionist told me there isn’t many negative effects with frequent sedation, but I didn’t like the idea of it). Eventually I couldn’t do it alone and it became too much of a hassle. The nail sessions started to end with bloody hands and that’s when I stopped using nail caps.
At 5 months old, her behavior was still the same as it was a couple months ago, still crazy as ever and climbed everything. She also would attack fast moving feet and hands. I read online that this is usually normal kitten behavior that they’re practicing hunting skills and that they will grow out of it, so I let it go on. We were also preparing for her spay surgery at this time, and my old veterinarian wanted to do bloodwork before the surgery date to get it out of the way. They brought her back to me and said that they were unable to work with her as she was “too irritated and reactive” as said in her medical records. We had to wait until she was sedated for surgery to be able to do bloodwork.
After her spay, she was fine. She continued to bite hands/ankles and continued to not stand for nail trims, or being touched. But I brushed it off as normal kitten behavior again. (She was 8 months now) I knew the people who adopted her siblings, and saw how cuddly of cats that they had become and started to wonder why my cat acted like this. I joined a cat forum called “CatSite” where I asked lots of questions regarding my cat’s behavior. I explained how she bit and scratched whenever I try to pet her. It didn’t seem aggressive/stress-related. I got responses like “this cat lacks confidence and still needs more socialization” and “she’s still a kitten”. They gave me LOTS of great advice. Rewarding her when being pet, using feliway or bach rescue remedy, getting cat trees, hissing, making a loud high pitched “ow” everytime she bit, doing time-outs, saying no, distracting, ignoring, redirecting. I tried all of it, but nothing stopped her.
I posted again at 11 months, after trying many of these options, and I was told to be very stern with my corrections. I also learned that her back twitched when I touched her there. They told me that this is a sign that she might be pretty sensitive there and to try to just touch her face. I learned she might have pent up energy, so I started to play with her more and take her out on walks. (I know I should’ve been doing this from the start, but I’ve never had a cat before and I’ve been learning as I go..).
After this, I finally went to my vet clinic again, to learn that my previous vet had moved out of state and that’s where I met Dr. Stacy. I talked to her about the problems that I’ve been having and that I felt exhausted of options. I also brought up the twitching of her back and Dr. Stacy talked to me about Hyperesthesia and I think we ruled that out. This is where the medication started. We first tried liquid gabapentin and it felt like the nail trims all over again. Restraining her was difficult, she hated the taste of the medication.
I expressed concern to Dr. Stacy about feeling like it wasn’t doing much and that restraining her was too difficult and was probably contributing to her hatred towards being touched/held/pet/near her. I wondered if there was a capsule version of the med that I’d be able to sprinkle onto her food and get her to eat. I also wondered about increasing the dose. The first couple days I think I was able to get her to eat the med with the food in it and it really knocked her out to the point where I felt bad that she was so drowsy. After that, she refused to eat her food if she could smell the med in it. We tried pilling her, pill pockets, cat burritos, lateral hold, etc. We couldn’t get her to eat the med.
I talked to my vet again, and we decided to try a compounded version of gabapentin liquid that tasted like fish. I tried that in her food and she ate a tiny bit of it, but caught a sniff of the med and I watched her gag. The next morning, she had thrown up 12-13 times in an hour. I took her to the emergency vet and they did an ultrasound to see if something was lodged in her intestines. Instead, they just found that her intestines were irritated. Dr. Stacy suspected it was probably the new medication.
After that $700 bill, she was on antibiotics and anti-nausia meds, which she took fine (surprisingly) with pill pockets. We took a break from any and all meds for a couple weeks, and then my cat was prescribed Amytriptyline. (From my understanding they usually use that on older cats with behavioral problems and that’s why we tried gabapentin first).
I haven’t gone to pick that up yet, since I’ve been at college (UW-Madison) and when I come home (DeForest) some weekends, the vet clinic in Waunakee isn’t open. I’ve been watching a lot of cat behavior videos to try and figure out what my cat is trying to say to me. Even my roommate, who has had cats her entire life and has always been a cat person, says that she doesn’t really understand “cat language.” Which makes sense since she left her litter too early and hasn’t met another cat in her life.

Another concern that I have is that she just naturally isn’t a friendly cat to me. I think it might be from months of trying to get her to take pills and doing her nail trims. She probably associates me with all things bad. I haven’t ever heard her purr and when I offer my finger for her to rub on, she never does. Though, whenever my roommate comes home, my cat runs to her and rubs up all over her legs. My cat sleeps with her at night, lays on her lap, purrs with her. My cat also bites her, which is confusing. If you talk to my cat, her tail lashes and she gets angry and gets ready to pounce on you, even if it’s a soothing voice. I can’t look or touch her without her getting angry. I understand that I may never have a cuddly cat, but all behavior signs that are “I love you” she doesn’t show. She runs to the door when someone new comes in and when my roommate does, but not me. She purrs with my roommate, but not me. She sleeps with my roommate, but not me.”

tia
 

rexinminn

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Wow, Kia, my heart really goes out to you. I'm sorry that you are having to endure this kind of anguish. I applaud you for sharing this story in such gripping detail, I know it's not easy to do this kind of thing. I admit I did not read everything word for word but I get the general idea of most of what you're concerned about. When you mentioned the medicine that your cat took which caused her to throw up 12-13 times, that reminded me of our Punkin who, a year ago at the age of 13, was given an anti-nausea med (not the same one you mentioned) and she reacted the same way. Punkin was sick like that for a full day and then would not eat for several days; in fact, I posted about it here and some of the ideas I got from people here helped us get over this ordeal, but it was so scary! So there are people here, Kia, who understand what you are going through. I think it is just so interesting that your cat reacts towards you the way she does, and I think I'd be going crazy about it by now. How painful! So I have a few ideas about what you could do. First, try not to take it personally. Second, reduce your expectations. Who knows why the cat acts toward you the way she does, it could be a million things, smell, your phermones and overall body chemistry, voice, etc. etc. Just keep letting her come to you, but obviously you'll have to MAKE opportunities for that to happen. See if you can entice her into playing. If you can crack the ice in the area of "play" you'll start to make inroads with her, I believe. One really simple play thing we do (we have two cats) is to take a bed sheet and stretch it out on the living room floor and use it as a platform for play where you can introduce simple toys. We like to shoot hair rings into the air and let them land on the sheet, then shake the sheet to make them go in the air. Their favorite thing is to hide under the sheet (you sort of have to create an opening), then I play with them from outside the sheet. But they sometimes just love to pounce on the sheet if you billow it up (it helps if you're using a fitted sheet) to make it sort of balloon up and slowly deflate. I really think that if you use the "play" route and try to get her to engage with you, she'll adapt to you eventually. I just think right now she's simply not "adapting" to you right now but she will need opportunities (that you go out of your way to create) to bond and adapt to you in the way you want. This will take time of course, but as long as you're consistent about offering her these play opportunties to her, she may eventually engage with you and that will be a good start. Tell me what you think of these ideas. PS...I'm also from Wisconsin, in fact, I grew up in Madison and went to UW too!
 

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As I read this, bad advice was given and errors were made:

(1) nail caps are often a PITA and should be a last resort when training has failed;
(2) a kitten biting hands or feet should be trained, not tolerated. The loud "ow!" you adopted would likely have worked if used earlier and consistently;
(3) medication shouldn't be used until training has been exhausted

You've had a tough time because of some bad advice. So now you have a cat that is set in his bitey ways and yes, all of the treatment has impacted his attitude towards you. Help from a behaviorist might be a good idea. Or maybe as She's a witch She's a witch suggested below, rehoming to the roommate is the way to go.
 
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Kvla

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Wow, Kia, my heart really goes out to you. I'm sorry that you are having to endure this kind of anguish. I applaud you for sharing this story in such gripping detail, I know it's not easy to do this kind of thing. I admit I did not read everything word for word but I get the general idea of most of what you're concerned about. When you mentioned the medicine that your cat took which caused her to throw up 12-13 times, that reminded me of our Punkin who, a year ago at the age of 13, was given an anti-nausea med (not the same one you mentioned) and she reacted the same way. Punkin was sick like that for a full day and then would not eat for several days; in fact, I posted about it here and some of the ideas I got from people here helped us get over this ordeal, but it was so scary! So there are people here, Kia, who understand what you are going through. I think it is just so interesting that your cat reacts towards you the way she does, and I think I'd be going crazy about it by now. How painful! So I have a few ideas about what you could do. First, try not to take it personally. Second, reduce your expectations. Who knows why the cat acts toward you the way she does, it could be a million things, smell, your phermones and overall body chemistry, voice, etc. etc. Just keep letting her come to you, but obviously you'll have to MAKE opportunities for that to happen. See if you can entice her into playing. If you can crack the ice in the area of "play" you'll start to make inroads with her, I believe. One really simple play thing we do (we have two cats) is to take a bed sheet and stretch it out on the living room floor and use it as a platform for play where you can introduce simple toys. We like to shoot hair rings into the air and let them land on the sheet, then shake the sheet to make them go in the air. Their favorite thing is to hide under the sheet (you sort of have to create an opening), then I play with them from outside the sheet. But they sometimes just love to pounce on the sheet if you billow it up (it helps if you're using a fitted sheet) to make it sort of balloon up and slowly deflate. I really think that if you use the "play" route and try to get her to engage with you, she'll adapt to you eventually. I just think right now she's simply not "adapting" to you right now but she will need opportunities (that you go out of your way to create) to bond and adapt to you in the way you want. This will take time of course, but as long as you're consistent about offering her these play opportunties to her, she may eventually engage with you and that will be a good start. Tell me what you think of these ideas. PS...I'm also from Wisconsin, in fact, I grew up in Madison and went to UW too!
Thank you so much for your input, that sounds like something she’d like. She loves to play I just don’t have much of a routine with it as I have such a busy schedule haha. I’ll try to play with her everyday again and just be consistent with it even if I’m not seeing many outcomes.


As I read this, bad advice was given and errors were made:

(1) nail caps are often a PITA and should be a last resort when training has failed;
(2) a kitten biting hands or feet should be trained, not tolerated. The loud "ow!" you adopted would likely have worked if used earlier and consistently;
(3) medication shouldn't be used until training has been exhausted

You've had a tough time because of some bad advice. So now you have a cat that is set in his bitey ways and yes, all of the treatment has impacted his attitude towards you. Help from a behaviorist might be a good idea. Or maybe as She's a witch She's a witch suggested below, rehoming to the roommate is the way to go.
Getting her was such a last minute decision and I realize now how these “corrections” were actually really harmful to our bond. It makes me upset and angry at myself for not knowing. Owning her has been such a learning experience that I’ll appreciate forever, never in my life have I known so much about cats than I do after this year. And you’re right, I was hesitant to post here again about her issues, but I’m hopeful a behaviorist will help and wanted to be proactive while waiting for an email back. The behaviorist is my last hope.


I think rehoming her to your roommate seems like a best solution that all of you would like.. i Wouldn’t hesitate to do this in your case.

Was she separated from her siblings at 4 weeks old? That would explain most of her behavioral issues. Kittens should never grow up alone.
I’m really hoping the behaviorist might help, but if it fails, I’ll most likely rehome her. It’s funny, I can look at her and not feel much emotion/love, but the thought of rehoming her makes me want to cry haha!
And yeah she hasn’t met another cat in her life, sometimes I don’t think she knows how to be one.
 

She's a witch

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It’s funny, I can look at her and not feel much emotion/love, but the thought of rehoming her makes me want to cry haha!
Frankly, I wouldn’t try the behaviorist path at this point.. not that I think they’re not helpful, I sure do, but I think, frankly, that if you two don’t like each other, you won’t have enough drive/will to work on her behavior. If you don’t like her, she knows it, and it seems you won’t like her because she doesn’t like you. Don’t take it personally, it’s just the way it is. So if she has a better relationship with your roommate, I’d leave it to her/him to work on her, as at least they have some good base in bonding.
The thought of rehoming her may make you sad if you treat it as your personal failure.. If that’s the case, try to shift your thinking and focus on what’s best for you and the cat.

Whatever you decide, good luck!!
 
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Kvla

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Frankly, I wouldn’t try the behaviorist path at this point.. not that I think they’re not helpful, I sure do, but I think, frankly, that if you two don’t like each other, you won’t have enough drive/will to work on her behavior. If you don’t like her, she knows it, and it seems you won’t like her because she doesn’t like you. Don’t take it personally, it’s just the way it is. So if she has a better relationship with your roommate, I’d leave it to her/him to work on her, as at least they have some good base in bonding.
The thought of rehoming her may make you sad if you treat it as your personal failure.. If that’s the case, try to shift your thinking and focus on what’s best for you and the cat.

Whatever you decide, good luck!!
That makes a lot of sense.. looks like I have some thinking to do. Thank you.
 

Talien

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Sometimes things just don't work out, if she really likes your roommate and they would have no problem taking her then that's probably the best way to go. Like ArtNJ said, you got a lot of bad advice and a lot of unnecessary use of medication.

You might also want to consider finding a new vet if you decide to get another Cat, because any vet that pushes medication as the first treatment for anything is a bad vet.
 

calicosrspecial

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Hi all!
I’ve been posting a lot about my cat as she’s been growing up and all the problems I’ve been having with her. This is my first cat and I’m really struggling to even like her. Her and I definitely have a bond issue and while I’d never euthanize her or rehome her to someone I don’t know, (if I were to rehome her it’d be to my roommate because she loves my roommate) it’s sad to feel like she’s not mine. So, I contacted a couple cat behaviorists in the area, I filled out multiple pre-assessment forms and I sent them my history. I’m feeling really guilty that it came to this point but I’m really just at my last straw.
If any of you have any last minute suggestions here is her history:


I adopted my cat from a friend who found the kittens on her farm. When I took her to the vet, they estimated that she was about 4 weeks old. She was weaned too early. She was very sweet and cuddly, never purred unless she was kneading, but also very curious and energetic as a kitten should be. I played with my hands and didn’t start to correct the behavior until she was a couple months old.
At a couple months old, she was being a kitten and climbing up on furniture. I talked to my veterinarian (who was not Dr. Stacy at the time) and she suggested I get cat trees and scratching posts. I had asked about nail caps and she had told me that many of their clinic cats used them and that they worked really well and stayed on for quite a while. So, I invested in some cat trees, scratching posts, and some nail caps. The nail caps didn’t stay on well, and fell off after about a week. Getting them put on was traumatic, because she did not handle being restrained very well at the vet clinic and it cost $35 to get them reapplied, even at a lower cost clinic. It got to the point where she needed to be sedated for her nail trims/caps. I started to do it myself, because I didn’t want to have to spend $35 on nail trims/caps and didn’t want her to be sedated so often. (To be fair, the receptionist told me there isn’t many negative effects with frequent sedation, but I didn’t like the idea of it). Eventually I couldn’t do it alone and it became too much of a hassle. The nail sessions started to end with bloody hands and that’s when I stopped using nail caps.
At 5 months old, her behavior was still the same as it was a couple months ago, still crazy as ever and climbed everything. She also would attack fast moving feet and hands. I read online that this is usually normal kitten behavior that they’re practicing hunting skills and that they will grow out of it, so I let it go on. We were also preparing for her spay surgery at this time, and my old veterinarian wanted to do bloodwork before the surgery date to get it out of the way. They brought her back to me and said that they were unable to work with her as she was “too irritated and reactive” as said in her medical records. We had to wait until she was sedated for surgery to be able to do bloodwork.
After her spay, she was fine. She continued to bite hands/ankles and continued to not stand for nail trims, or being touched. But I brushed it off as normal kitten behavior again. (She was 8 months now) I knew the people who adopted her siblings, and saw how cuddly of cats that they had become and started to wonder why my cat acted like this. I joined a cat forum called “CatSite” where I asked lots of questions regarding my cat’s behavior. I explained how she bit and scratched whenever I try to pet her. It didn’t seem aggressive/stress-related. I got responses like “this cat lacks confidence and still needs more socialization” and “she’s still a kitten”. They gave me LOTS of great advice. Rewarding her when being pet, using feliway or bach rescue remedy, getting cat trees, hissing, making a loud high pitched “ow” everytime she bit, doing time-outs, saying no, distracting, ignoring, redirecting. I tried all of it, but nothing stopped her.
I posted again at 11 months, after trying many of these options, and I was told to be very stern with my corrections. I also learned that her back twitched when I touched her there. They told me that this is a sign that she might be pretty sensitive there and to try to just touch her face. I learned she might have pent up energy, so I started to play with her more and take her out on walks. (I know I should’ve been doing this from the start, but I’ve never had a cat before and I’ve been learning as I go..).
After this, I finally went to my vet clinic again, to learn that my previous vet had moved out of state and that’s where I met Dr. Stacy. I talked to her about the problems that I’ve been having and that I felt exhausted of options. I also brought up the twitching of her back and Dr. Stacy talked to me about Hyperesthesia and I think we ruled that out. This is where the medication started. We first tried liquid gabapentin and it felt like the nail trims all over again. Restraining her was difficult, she hated the taste of the medication.
I expressed concern to Dr. Stacy about feeling like it wasn’t doing much and that restraining her was too difficult and was probably contributing to her hatred towards being touched/held/pet/near her. I wondered if there was a capsule version of the med that I’d be able to sprinkle onto her food and get her to eat. I also wondered about increasing the dose. The first couple days I think I was able to get her to eat the med with the food in it and it really knocked her out to the point where I felt bad that she was so drowsy. After that, she refused to eat her food if she could smell the med in it. We tried pilling her, pill pockets, cat burritos, lateral hold, etc. We couldn’t get her to eat the med.
I talked to my vet again, and we decided to try a compounded version of gabapentin liquid that tasted like fish. I tried that in her food and she ate a tiny bit of it, but caught a sniff of the med and I watched her gag. The next morning, she had thrown up 12-13 times in an hour. I took her to the emergency vet and they did an ultrasound to see if something was lodged in her intestines. Instead, they just found that her intestines were irritated. Dr. Stacy suspected it was probably the new medication.
After that $700 bill, she was on antibiotics and anti-nausia meds, which she took fine (surprisingly) with pill pockets. We took a break from any and all meds for a couple weeks, and then my cat was prescribed Amytriptyline. (From my understanding they usually use that on older cats with behavioral problems and that’s why we tried gabapentin first).
I haven’t gone to pick that up yet, since I’ve been at college (UW-Madison) and when I come home (DeForest) some weekends, the vet clinic in Waunakee isn’t open. I’ve been watching a lot of cat behavior videos to try and figure out what my cat is trying to say to me. Even my roommate, who has had cats her entire life and has always been a cat person, says that she doesn’t really understand “cat language.” Which makes sense since she left her litter too early and hasn’t met another cat in her life.

Another concern that I have is that she just naturally isn’t a friendly cat to me. I think it might be from months of trying to get her to take pills and doing her nail trims. She probably associates me with all things bad. I haven’t ever heard her purr and when I offer my finger for her to rub on, she never does. Though, whenever my roommate comes home, my cat runs to her and rubs up all over her legs. My cat sleeps with her at night, lays on her lap, purrs with her. My cat also bites her, which is confusing. If you talk to my cat, her tail lashes and she gets angry and gets ready to pounce on you, even if it’s a soothing voice. I can’t look or touch her without her getting angry. I understand that I may never have a cuddly cat, but all behavior signs that are “I love you” she doesn’t show. She runs to the door when someone new comes in and when my roommate does, but not me. She purrs with my roommate, but not me. She sleeps with my roommate, but not me.”

tia
Hi,

You obviously have feelings/love towards her so that is a positive,

I deal with ferals and have realized how important our emotions are as cats pick up on them (our sadness, anxiety, fear, etc). And sometimes the humans don't realize that we are feeling "different" but the cat does and since cats don't like change they get more "cautious and on guard'.

The fact the cat rubs on, sleeps with, lays on her lap, purrs with your roommate tells me that she can respond. I would like to understand the biting as some cats bite out of love and others out of defensiveness.

When I deal with a unknown feral cat I do a few things. I never initiate contact. I watch my emotions. I never stand over a cat. I never reach from above a cat. I don't stare at a cat. I let them go at their pace. I use food to build a positive relationship/positive association. I don't force attention on them etc. I try to give them a routine as cats are creatures of habit. I give them the scratching posts, warm, comfy bedding, cat trees etc so give them opportunities to go high (confidence building), to hang out, own things (getting their scent on things).

And slowly build on the positives.

Given you obviously do have feelings for her and she does respond to your roommate I don;t see any reason why you couldn't build that bond and trust with her. You obviously are a good person (otherwise you wouldn't be here), you are intelligent, you have the desire. Our goal is to give you the knowledge to build that bond. I do this with ferals all the time and I don't see any reason why your cat would be more difficult than a feral.

I am guessing there was some trauma and some negative association given what happened with the history (caps, vet visits, medicines,etc) but cats can overcome and do respond to being loved.

The BEST way to a cat's heart is food. So using food and giving her some space (no attempts at petting, no staring, no standing above, approaching lower, keeping positive emotions, moving at a normal pace - not faster than normal not slower, and trying to find a routine) is a good way to start. And then we can see how she responds.

I am happy to help if you like. I know I am coming in a bit late but I think this relationship can be saved if you would like. It will take time and effort but I haven't really read any reason why it wouldn't work.
 

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Firsts of anything are always difficult because you go into a learning mode rather than a reacting mode. Then the experiences program you so you think you know what your doing. This even includes things like your first child. It molds how you learn to react to things. Then you have a second child and you discover that much of what you learned with the first one doesn't work because every child is different. Yeah, you thought you new what you were doing, nope you don't. The same is true of cats. I am always amazed at how different each one is. Where do these different personalities come from? So you and your cat are both dealing with one of a kind experiences and trying to extend them to "all cats are the same" while in fact they are not. Ideas for training one cat don't necessarily work for others. So it's not so much that you have gotten bad advice as much as you have gotten advise that comes from experience with other cats which are likely very different from your own. I have a batch of 6 kittens from a feral mom and each one is unique. One aggressively goes after a stuffed mouse on a wand while another hides from it. One runs in the door when I open it to give them food while the rest wait around the dish. Two of them got to excited about the food thing and thought they could get it faster by climbing me while I opened the can. I am not a tree, it hurt, they got swatted. Some people think it's counterproductive to swat a kitten. But after 2 times they quit trying to climb me and now wait like the others do. But I am aware that some kittens will just never learn and it just doesn't do any good with some. So essentially you just need to figure out what works with this cat and what doesn't. And just like with children, some things are worth making an issue about and some things aren't. For me, biting hard would be an issue. All my cat's know biting me hard gets a loud verbal response and they get dropped on the floor and left. They now almost never do that because they know it is not an acceptable behavior. By the way something Jackson Galaxy talks about is over-stimulation. Some cats are very sensitive and can't handle to much stimulation, like to much petting or even to much playing with their paws. I have one cat who is very ticklish in her back feet and she doesn't like them touched lightly. Hard is fine but just running a finger over the hairs will make her kick and shake her foot and a second time she will get up and leave. Every cat is different.
 
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Kvla

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Sometimes things just don't work out, if she really likes your roommate and they would have no problem taking her then that's probably the best way to go. Like ArtNJ said, you got a lot of bad advice and a lot of unnecessary use of medication.

You might also want to consider finding a new vet if you decide to get another Cat, because any vet that pushes medication as the first treatment for anything is a bad vet.
I agree. I’m trying to think of rehoming her as best for her, even as sad as it will be for me. It makes me feel guilty now knowing that some advice given to me wasn’t helpful and was actually against me. I also would feel guilty if I hadn’t tried everything in my power to help her and help our bond.


Hi,

You obviously have feelings/love towards her so that is a positive,

I deal with ferals and have realized how important our emotions are as cats pick up on them (our sadness, anxiety, fear, etc). And sometimes the humans don't realize that we are feeling "different" but the cat does and since cats don't like change they get more "cautious and on guard'.

The fact the cat rubs on, sleeps with, lays on her lap, purrs with your roommate tells me that she can respond. I would like to understand the biting as some cats bite out of love and others out of defensiveness.

When I deal with a unknown feral cat I do a few things. I never initiate contact. I watch my emotions. I never stand over a cat. I never reach from above a cat. I don't stare at a cat. I let them go at their pace. I use food to build a positive relationship/positive association. I don't force attention on them etc. I try to give them a routine as cats are creatures of habit. I give them the scratching posts, warm, comfy bedding, cat trees etc so give them opportunities to go high (confidence building), to hang out, own things (getting their scent on things).

And slowly build on the positives.

Given you obviously do have feelings for her and she does respond to your roommate I don;t see any reason why you couldn't build that bond and trust with her. You obviously are a good person (otherwise you wouldn't be here), you are intelligent, you have the desire. Our goal is to give you the knowledge to build that bond. I do this with ferals all the time and I don't see any reason why your cat would be more difficult than a feral.

I am guessing there was some trauma and some negative association given what happened with the history (caps, vet visits, medicines,etc) but cats can overcome and do respond to being loved.

The BEST way to a cat's heart is food. So using food and giving her some space (no attempts at petting, no staring, no standing above, approaching lower, keeping positive emotions, moving at a normal pace - not faster than normal not slower, and trying to find a routine) is a good way to start. And then we can see how she responds.

I am happy to help if you like. I know I am coming in a bit late but I think this relationship can be saved if you would like. It will take time and effort but I haven't really read any reason why it wouldn't work.
I got back from class today at the same time as my roommate, we both walked through the door. Ophelia was laying on the end of her bed and got up immediately to say hi to my roommate and rubbed against her hand. I got upset and crawled into bed under the covers and my cat jumped up and sat on my hip and let me scratch the top of her head with one finger for a minute. I don’t get moments where she’s friendly towards me a lot, but when I do my heart explodes with love. I do really love her and I do want to have a bond with her and I don’t want to give up. Reading your reply gave me more hope. I also find the best acomes from those who work with the least domestic cats. I would love any help I can get!!


Firsts of anything are always difficult because you go into a learning mode rather than a reacting mode. Then the experiences program you so you think you know what your doing. This even includes things like your first child. It molds how you learn to react to things. Then you have a second child and you discover that much of what you learned with the first one doesn't work because every child is different. Yeah, you thought you new what you were doing, nope you don't. The same is true of cats. I am always amazed at how different each one is. Where do these different personalities come from? So you and your cat are both dealing with one of a kind experiences and trying to extend them to "all cats are the same" while in fact they are not. Ideas for training one cat don't necessarily work for others. So it's not so much that you have gotten bad advice as much as you have gotten advise that comes from experience with other cats which are likely very different from your own. I have a batch of 6 kittens from a feral mom and each one is unique. One aggressively goes after a stuffed mouse on a wand while another hides from it. One runs in the door when I open it to give them food while the rest wait around the dish. Two of them got to excited about the food thing and thought they could get it faster by climbing me while I opened the can. I am not a tree, it hurt, they got swatted. Some people think it's counterproductive to swat a kitten. But after 2 times they quit trying to climb me and now wait like the others do. But I am aware that some kittens will just never learn and it just doesn't do any good with some. So essentially you just need to figure out what works with this cat and what doesn't. And just like with children, some things are worth making an issue about and some things aren't. For me, biting hard would be an issue. All my cat's know biting me hard gets a loud verbal response and they get dropped on the floor and left. They now almost never do that because they know it is not an acceptable behavior. By the way something Jackson Galaxy talks about is over-stimulation. Some cats are very sensitive and can't handle to much stimulation, like to much petting or even to much playing with their paws. I have one cat who is very ticklish in her back feet and she doesn't like them touched lightly. Hard is fine but just running a finger over the hairs will make her kick and shake her foot and a second time she will get up and leave. Every cat is different.
I totally understand. I has just thought for such a long time my cat just wasn’t very friendly, wasn’t a cuddler, didn’t like being pet, until my roommate came around and she started to show those signs. Then I started to wonder what I did or what was wrong with me that made her love her more. I did take it personally, and probably still do. Which I know I shouldn’t. I know that nobody on this forum KNOWS my cat. They haven’t met her, and what I’m describing is only things that I’ve picked up on. I’m hoping a cat behaviorist might see what I can’t see, and assess how I should approach her based on what they see.
 

calicosrspecial

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GREAT!! The way she responded to you tells me that there is hope.

I can tell that you have a lot of love for her and it sounds like she has that with you as well. A cat would not come up on you and get a pet unless she likes you. THAT is a GREAT SIGN. Cats can sense our emotions and she knew you needed some "cheering up". Cats are more sensitive than we think. What she did is VERY COOL!!

I'll be with you every step of the way. Don't worry, I am very hopeful. Positives tend to build on positives.

I am short on time right now but take a look at my post. Try to give her something special (a treat, or warm chicken, some food that she may love). Stay calm and confident around her. See the good in her. Don't take things personally. And we'll slowly build on those positives. Given what you said about how she responded when you came home I think things are in a better place than you may fear.

Please ask any questions. If you can take some video of her.

Does she like to play?

I'll get you some more concrete things in a post tomorrow when I have more time. I am really excited about how she responded to you when you came home!!
 
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Kvla

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GREAT!! The way she responded to you tells me that there is hope.

I can tell that you have a lot of love for her and it sounds like she has that with you as well. A cat would not come up on you and get a pet unless she likes you. THAT is a GREAT SIGN. Cats can sense our emotions and she knew you needed some "cheering up". Cats are more sensitive than we think. What she did is VERY COOL!!

I'll be with you every step of the way. Don't worry, I am very hopeful. Positives tend to build on positives.

I am short on time right now but take a look at my post. Try to give her something special (a treat, or warm chicken, some food that she may love). Stay calm and confident around her. See the good in her. Don't take things personally. And we'll slowly build on those positives. Given what you said about how she responded when you came home I think things are in a better place than you may fear.

Please ask any questions. If you can take some video of her.

Does she like to play?

I'll get you some more concrete things in a post tomorrow when I have more time. I am really excited about how she responded to you when you came home!!

I definitely lack confidence around her, especially when my roommate is home. I definitely feel less confident and more jealous. I watch her a lot and I feel jealous of the things that she does with my roommate while I'm home. I'll have to work on that, and practice.

I'm wondering what I should do if she's not food-motivated. I feed her dry and wet food in the morning and at night (at varying times). I try to give her treats when I walk in the door, but she doesn't always eat them. I tried a lot of different foods when I was trying to give her medicine too. She does really love tuna from a can, still. That's just a real messy one! If I use this treat too much will it lose it's value?

She does love to play! And I'll try to get videos. Of her attacks? Or while interacting with me? Or both?
 

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If you want to bond with the cat, you have to do whatever it is she is willing to do with you. Play. Pet when tired (often the only time a cat that doesn't fully trust a person will allow petting). Pet in a particular place if there is one (sometimes cats will allow a human they don't fully trust to pet in one special spot where they know the human is quiet like a couch or bed). And you also have to scheme. My main scheming tactic is to link a call noise and signal to good things. Use it to summon the cat to the special spot, if there is one. Or to summon the cat to give treats. Once they know what the call noise means, you try to expand where and how you interact gradually.

I typically have no problem using negative reinforcement (usually a loud "no!") to extinguish behaviors like biting or climbing the curtains. Well, sometimes it is slowww to work, but it doesn't hurt the bond with the cat. However, with a cat that isn't bonded yet its a dicier thing. I'm confident I could bond with this cat OR fix the behaviors, or probably sequence them, but doing both together is another level of difficult is why I thought the behaviorist might be a good idea. Maybe some of the members that routinely work with ferals might be able to help more -- I rescued a stray once, but not the same level of difficulty your facing.
 

calicosrspecial

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I definitely lack confidence around her, especially when my roommate is home. I definitely feel less confident and more jealous. I watch her a lot and I feel jealous of the things that she does with my roommate while I'm home. I'll have to work on that, and practice.

I'm wondering what I should do if she's not food-motivated. I feed her dry and wet food in the morning and at night (at varying times). I try to give her treats when I walk in the door, but she doesn't always eat them. I tried a lot of different foods when I was trying to give her medicine too. She does really love tuna from a can, still. That's just a real messy one! If I use this treat too much will it lose it's value?

She does love to play! And I'll try to get videos. Of her attacks? Or while interacting with me? Or both?
I LOVE your honesty regarding your emotions. Understanding where we are is very self aware and very helpful in moving forward. It is amazing how much our emotions impact a cat's behavior. I see it all the time when dealing with ferals. If there is fear then the cat gets defensive. If we act like all is good they tend to relax more. Oftentimes, the biggest challenge I have is getting a human to understand how important their emotions are towards the cat. I don;t think that is going to be the issue with us. That is great!!

Yes, please don't feel jealous. Because it is not personal. If Ophelia can respond to one human she can respond to you. View it in the lense of Ophelia is happy and enjoying herself and that is wonderful. SO now we want to expand that enjoyment with you as well. Again, she came to you when you were in bed and sat on you AND allowed you to pet her. She wanted to cheer you up, she wanted to affection. I can't emphasize what a great sign that is. She came to you and cats don't do that unless there is some bond. So we just need to build on that.

We'll let's see if she is food motivated. Try not to give tuna from a can since it is not he best for a cat. And as you mention, it is really messy. If she likes tuna she will probably like treats that have fish. And the really good thing is, fish treats tend to be really stinky and cats tend to like stinky. When I deal with ferals I use sticky fish treats and I use warm chicken thigh meat (or if it isn't warm then cold but it still have a good smell). Some cats like "fresh bird" as I call it (chicken) while others like fish based (and many like both).

What I do with treats when dealing with a cat (whether in a house, shelter, or in a trap) is to get as low as possible (typically sitting on the floor). Cats don;t like when we stand over them since height is a part of a cat's confidence. I have my hand with the treat or food as low as possible below the cat's eye line). I make sure my emotions are calm and confident as cats can pick up on any fear, etc and if they pick up on that they will be more "on guard" and cautious. I move at a normal pace, not faster, not slower. I watch the cat's body language and do not get too close into their "personal" space. If you see a cat getting lower (crouching down a touch), or the ears go back, or the eyes get "funny, or the tail starts swishing then just realize it and put the treats down and retreat back in a normal pace. Not panic. Typically cats will give a lot of notice and warnings before they would attack or strike out. And also, never have the cat cornered (in a corner, against the wall, etc). We always want a cat to have multiple exit routes so they can choose "flight" over "fight". If you would like to film that that could be helpful.

On will the same treat lose its value - I like to switch them up a bit. If the cat doesn't show interest (which can happen because they aren't hungry or because they want something different) then it is not a big deal and we can try another treat or another time.

Also, I really like to build confidence as I believe a confident cat is more likely to accept people, love people, etc. Play is a BIG part of confidence building. I am so glad to hear she loves to play. So play with her and after play feed either treats or a meal. That replicates the survival instinct that they have (in the wild). What they do is they Hunt, then Capture, then Kill the prey, then Eat they prey (which is our play session and then feeding treats or a meal) then typically in the wild (and at home) will groom themselves and go to sleep. If we get a really good play session then feed a meal or treats that is a great step in building her confidence. If she is playing with you that is a great sign as well and will make that positive association with you and build that bond.

You are feeding her, correct? Feeding builds a positive association as food is something good and it is survival. So cats really respond to those that feed them. Try to keep feeding on a routine if possible. So certain set times. Cats LOVE routines and are creatures of habit so the more "routine" everything is the more confident and comfortable they tend to be.

I do need to understand the attacks more. So if you can video them (don't encourage them to happen) that could be helpful. I also would just love to see how she interacts with you and how she plays.

Now I want you to wait for her to initiate contact rather than you initiating contact. One thing I always so is always let the cat initiate contact and to go at the pace the cat wants to go. I never force affection etc on a cat. Once the bond and trust develops the cat will show you they want that affection. NOW we did get a glimpse of that when you were in bed. So I think you are much closer than you may realize.

Cats are complex and interpreting their body language, actions, etc can be very difficult. Hopefully, I can interpret her so that it can help you understand what she really is telling us. It is so common for people to misinterpret a cat and then get negative and then the cat gets negative and it just fizzles out on a misinterpretation. So my goal is to get an accurate assessment of what is really going on and work on things to improve the situation. If it looks hopeless I will tell you. But if it can be improved I will be with you every step of the way.

Please ask anything, post anything. This is not about holding back or blaming or anything like that. We are here to help the situation. My goal is to make the relationship between you and Ophelia to be as positive and loving as possible. I am very confident given what I have read so far that we can do it. Typically it is all about desire and knowledge and you certainly have the desire to improve this and I believe I have the knowledge. We can do this.
 

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You are getting some great advice here, I too would hold off with the behaviorist, I had a bad experience with one
They just medicated my cats and it was more of a problem.
I think you are right, you had so much to do with this cat, it wasn't fun for the cat, I went through the same thing.
Just play and be all good things! Be patient, kitty will figure it out!
 
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Kvla

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If you want to bond with the cat, you have to do whatever it is she is willing to do with you. Play. Pet when tired (often the only time a cat that doesn't fully trust a person will allow petting). Pet in a particular place if there is one (sometimes cats will allow a human they don't fully trust to pet in one special spot where they know the human is quiet like a couch or bed). And you also have to scheme. My main scheming tactic is to link a call noise and signal to good things. Use it to summon the cat to the special spot, if there is one. Or to summon the cat to give treats. Once they know what the call noise means, you try to expand where and how you interact gradually.

I typically have no problem using negative reinforcement (usually a loud "no!") to extinguish behaviors like biting or climbing the curtains. Well, sometimes it is slowww to work, but it doesn't hurt the bond with the cat. However, with a cat that isn't bonded yet its a dicier thing. I'm confident I could bond with this cat OR fix the behaviors, or probably sequence them, but doing both together is another level of difficult is why I thought the behaviorist might be a good idea. Maybe some of the members that routinely work with ferals might be able to help more -- I rescued a stray once, but not the same level of difficulty your facing.
Her favorite spot to sit and sleep is on my roommate's bed, so when I come home I can often find her there and I used to walk up to her and pet her while she was on the bed because while she was sleepy from her nap, she did allow me to pet her. Now that I'm writing this out, it makes sense. Lately, I've been walking in the door and sitting down on the ground and calling her name to get her to come off my roommate's bed and come over to me where I'd reward her with a treat. I've always just said "my cat" or "kitty" instead of using her name, but I'm hoping she'll start to respond to her name and that can bee the "summoning noise" to signal good things?

Instead of doing both bonding and fixing the behavior together, is there one you think should be done first? I would assume probably bonding with her first might solve a lot of my issues and help her to quit biting or attacking randomly because she stopped seeing me as something negative.

I LOVE your honesty regarding your emotions. Understanding where we are is very self aware and very helpful in moving forward. It is amazing how much our emotions impact a cat's behavior. I see it all the time when dealing with ferals. If there is fear then the cat gets defensive. If we act like all is good they tend to relax more. Oftentimes, the biggest challenge I have is getting a human to understand how important their emotions are towards the cat. I don;t think that is going to be the issue with us. That is great!!

Yes, please don't feel jealous. Because it is not personal. If Ophelia can respond to one human she can respond to you. View it in the lense of Ophelia is happy and enjoying herself and that is wonderful. SO now we want to expand that enjoyment with you as well. Again, she came to you when you were in bed and sat on you AND allowed you to pet her. She wanted to cheer you up, she wanted to affection. I can't emphasize what a great sign that is. She came to you and cats don't do that unless there is some bond. So we just need to build on that.

We'll let's see if she is food motivated. Try not to give tuna from a can since it is not he best for a cat. And as you mention, it is really messy. If she likes tuna she will probably like treats that have fish. And the really good thing is, fish treats tend to be really stinky and cats tend to like stinky. When I deal with ferals I use sticky fish treats and I use warm chicken thigh meat (or if it isn't warm then cold but it still have a good smell). Some cats like "fresh bird" as I call it (chicken) while others like fish based (and many like both).

What I do with treats when dealing with a cat (whether in a house, shelter, or in a trap) is to get as low as possible (typically sitting on the floor). Cats don;t like when we stand over them since height is a part of a cat's confidence. I have my hand with the treat or food as low as possible below the cat's eye line). I make sure my emotions are calm and confident as cats can pick up on any fear, etc and if they pick up on that they will be more "on guard" and cautious. I move at a normal pace, not faster, not slower. I watch the cat's body language and do not get too close into their "personal" space. If you see a cat getting lower (crouching down a touch), or the ears go back, or the eyes get "funny, or the tail starts swishing then just realize it and put the treats down and retreat back in a normal pace. Not panic. Typically cats will give a lot of notice and warnings before they would attack or strike out. And also, never have the cat cornered (in a corner, against the wall, etc). We always want a cat to have multiple exit routes so they can choose "flight" over "fight". If you would like to film that that could be helpful.

On will the same treat lose its value - I like to switch them up a bit. If the cat doesn't show interest (which can happen because they aren't hungry or because they want something different) then it is not a big deal and we can try another treat or another time.

Also, I really like to build confidence as I believe a confident cat is more likely to accept people, love people, etc. Play is a BIG part of confidence building. I am so glad to hear she loves to play. So play with her and after play feed either treats or a meal. That replicates the survival instinct that they have (in the wild). What they do is they Hunt, then Capture, then Kill the prey, then Eat they prey (which is our play session and then feeding treats or a meal) then typically in the wild (and at home) will groom themselves and go to sleep. If we get a really good play session then feed a meal or treats that is a great step in building her confidence. If she is playing with you that is a great sign as well and will make that positive association with you and build that bond.

You are feeding her, correct? Feeding builds a positive association as food is something good and it is survival. So cats really respond to those that feed them. Try to keep feeding on a routine if possible. So certain set times. Cats LOVE routines and are creatures of habit so the more "routine" everything is the more confident and comfortable they tend to be.

I do need to understand the attacks more. So if you can video them (don't encourage them to happen) that could be helpful. I also would just love to see how she interacts with you and how she plays.

Now I want you to wait for her to initiate contact rather than you initiating contact. One thing I always so is always let the cat initiate contact and to go at the pace the cat wants to go. I never force affection etc on a cat. Once the bond and trust develops the cat will show you they want that affection. NOW we did get a glimpse of that when you were in bed. So I think you are much closer than you may realize.

Cats are complex and interpreting their body language, actions, etc can be very difficult. Hopefully, I can interpret her so that it can help you understand what she really is telling us. It is so common for people to misinterpret a cat and then get negative and then the cat gets negative and it just fizzles out on a misinterpretation. So my goal is to get an accurate assessment of what is really going on and work on things to improve the situation. If it looks hopeless I will tell you. But if it can be improved I will be with you every step of the way.

Please ask anything, post anything. This is not about holding back or blaming or anything like that. We are here to help the situation. My goal is to make the relationship between you and Ophelia to be as positive and loving as possible. I am very confident given what I have read so far that we can do it. Typically it is all about desire and knowledge and you certainly have the desire to improve this and I believe I have the knowledge. We can do this.
I went to Walgreens today and got a bag of treats that are tuna flavored and they were a hit! I sit on the ground when I enter the room and call her name to me, then when she approaches me I give her a treat or two and then I walk to take off my coat/backpack and go about settling in at home.

For play, she loves the laser and she loves feathers on a string wand-toy. I usually don't do this, but today I did this for playtime: I pull out my ottoman, pulled out some chairs, laid blankets on the beds flat, brought out her tube toy, and laid out a fitted sheet like someone above had reccommended for play. I tried to recreate a "foresty" feel for her to pounce on things, got through things, leap on things and run down hallways. I wonder if using a feather toy versus using a laser toy first would help? I know sometimes using a laser can frustrate a cat because they can't often actually catch it. I usually use the wand toy first around the room and once she gets tired of it, loses interest and doesn't watch it as intensely as she has been, I switch to the laser because the laser always gets her going. I just learned that when cats lay down on their side, it means "I want to keep playing, but my body won't let me" When she does this I get her to do one more good chase of the laser and then gave her some treats. I wonder if I should switch to the feather toy last because that's something she can actually catch? or are treats enough? Also, when I use the feather toy, I usually end up standing over her because of how the string lands near her. Is this okay because we're playing? or is this still seen as hurting her confidence?

I do feed her twice a day, wet and dry. Though she usually just sniffs the food when I set it down and comes back to it later. She seems to free-feed during the 10-12 hours between feedings. I'll try to keep it on a schedule, but I struggle with that as my college schedule is crazy and I'm not always home at the same times everynight. And if it's later in the night, like 11am and 11pm, I feel bad feeding her so late at night.

As for her attacks, I'm going to attach a couple videos of something that happened last night. I do notice the warning signs like her tail swishing and her ears back. Her eyes are focused on me and she's standing really still. She does the same thing when she's watching her wand toy. What I don't know is why? I was sitting on the floor cutting out flashcards for a speech I had the next day, and me sitting there seemed to bother her. I don't know what I did for her to want to come bite me other than remember that I'm negative. I also don't know what to do when she starts to act like this, if I stand up, she'll lunge at my legs or my hand. If I walk away, she'll chase me and bite my leg. Sometimes I'll ignore her and let her bite me even though it hurts because "their prey run from them and it makes them latch on harder" In this case I stood up and let her bite my leg in order to safely pick her up and put her outside the bathroom with the door closed so I could cut my paper. 2 minutes later, her paws are under the door and she's begging to come back in. As soon as I let her back in she's back to biting my arms.

Another video I attached was today after playtime, she walks around with her tail laid out straight and not straight up and curved at the tip. Does this mean she's lacking confidence and is not comfortable around me?

Attack:
Walking:
 
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Kvla

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You are getting some great advice here, I too would hold off with the behaviorist, I had a bad experience with one
They just medicated my cats and it was more of a problem.
I think you are right, you had so much to do with this cat, it wasn't fun for the cat, I went through the same thing.
Just play and be all good things! Be patient, kitty will figure it out!
Thank you!
 

walli

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Keep giving her treats and try to make sure you are not stressed about any of this, she will pick up on it
Enjoy yourself as you figure this out, cut yourself some slack, some situations are difficult with cats
we just wing it! she needs you to enjoy yourself right now, utilize info when you get it, but don't stress about it.
when you build some relationship with her, you can start dealing with the biting,
One thing you can do for now is whenever she bites, say ow really loud this will let her know she is hurting you.
say it in a way that sounds like you're hurt. I would start with this, you have to do it every time or it's like starting over
every time. Your room mate needs to do it too, every time.
Be all good things for the kitty, saying Ow should be ok, it's not like your disciplining her.
someone else might be able to give better info, also if the biting continues there are more things you can do
but just enjoy her and let her enjoy you for awhile. And do the "Ow"!
One time I did this to my Joey and he looked at me like he was surprised that I was hurt.
He has come a long way with his biting.
 

calicosrspecial

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How do I get the videos to work? I clicked on one but it just took me to a site but there wasn't a video. I am not technical and have no idea how to upload a video but I know people use youtube and it works (whatever they do).

Once I can see the videos I will respond to everything. Thanks
 
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