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The well-known problem of IBD or lymphoma and pancreatitis
- Thread starter arinlars
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Bone broth isn't sold anywhere. Sadly, you have to make it. Most use a crock pot. If you're up for it, the links have instructions. Or you can find them online.
And making cat food - the recipes are already balanced, so the only real issue is your time and ability to follow a recipe. But it is much easier to buy commercial! Rad Cat may be best, but plenty of people use Nature's Variety or Primal, which are both much easier to find for most people. If you can afford it, Stella & Chewy's (freeze dried) is also usually liked by cats, the problem is they don't have many that are single-source proteins in cat format.
Just remember - if you transition to raw, please do it very slowly. And introduce just one protein at a time. Please don't just offer it as a meal. All cats do best with slow transitions, but IBD kitties in particular need very slow transitions. Start with just a bite or two next to or mixed into her current food. And if she still has diarrhea then, if it gets worse, skip a few meals, then give her less. If she doesn't have diarrhea when you start to introduce it, and develops diarrhea at any point, skip offering raw at a meal or two, and give less. IBD kitties are GOING to react. Period. So it's a matter of keeping an eye on the litter box (or if she vomits or regurgitates the food, this can happen too).
Think of it as you would someone that's been eating pizza for years with no fresh food of any kind, ever. You can't just suddenly switch to eating salads without a lot of gastrointestinal turmoil. Same thing.
And making cat food - the recipes are already balanced, so the only real issue is your time and ability to follow a recipe. But it is much easier to buy commercial! Rad Cat may be best, but plenty of people use Nature's Variety or Primal, which are both much easier to find for most people. If you can afford it, Stella & Chewy's (freeze dried) is also usually liked by cats, the problem is they don't have many that are single-source proteins in cat format.
Just remember - if you transition to raw, please do it very slowly. And introduce just one protein at a time. Please don't just offer it as a meal. All cats do best with slow transitions, but IBD kitties in particular need very slow transitions. Start with just a bite or two next to or mixed into her current food. And if she still has diarrhea then, if it gets worse, skip a few meals, then give her less. If she doesn't have diarrhea when you start to introduce it, and develops diarrhea at any point, skip offering raw at a meal or two, and give less. IBD kitties are GOING to react. Period. So it's a matter of keeping an eye on the litter box (or if she vomits or regurgitates the food, this can happen too).
Think of it as you would someone that's been eating pizza for years with no fresh food of any kind, ever. You can't just suddenly switch to eating salads without a lot of gastrointestinal turmoil. Same thing.
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I wonder if I could post here without hyjacking someone else's issues.
My cat Obi was diagnosed with pancreatitis. He is 15 and I am not having biopsies or ultrasounds done. I am sure folks here understand.
He is being treated for the pancreatitis. All his organs are in great shape on the chemistry panel. But, his hairball vomiting escalated, and I hit the wall over the weekend, so I got an internal medicine consult . Four hours later, the diagnosis is pancreatitis,(SNAP test); the rule outs are parasites, IBD or lymphoma, or, I suppose, some none specific GI issue. That last one is a stretch, I know.
So: I realize the treatment is pretty much the same for both diseases. However, is there any collective wisdom here that might help me determine whether my Obi has cancer or IBD? he does not have diarrhea, he has had a healthy appetite until yesterday and today; and has for the most part, only vomited hair.
Collective or individual wisdom appreciated, and I will try to answer any and all questions.
My cat Obi was diagnosed with pancreatitis. He is 15 and I am not having biopsies or ultrasounds done. I am sure folks here understand.
He is being treated for the pancreatitis. All his organs are in great shape on the chemistry panel. But, his hairball vomiting escalated, and I hit the wall over the weekend, so I got an internal medicine consult . Four hours later, the diagnosis is pancreatitis,(SNAP test); the rule outs are parasites, IBD or lymphoma, or, I suppose, some none specific GI issue. That last one is a stretch, I know.
So: I realize the treatment is pretty much the same for both diseases. However, is there any collective wisdom here that might help me determine whether my Obi has cancer or IBD? he does not have diarrhea, he has had a healthy appetite until yesterday and today; and has for the most part, only vomited hair.
Collective or individual wisdom appreciated, and I will try to answer any and all questions.
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- #104
Hello ! I don't know much about pancreatitis but this site ibdkitties.net helped me a lot and it's very resourceful with tips and tricks with pancreatitis and ibd. I guess that slippery Elm bark can help and antibiotics. What food is he on now? How often does he vomit? And did he vomited ever bile or blood?
Well in my Mimi's case.. We don't know and no one knows.
Even if you did the exploratory surgery you might still don't know.l I just choose to treat her with prednisolone which I regret, because the vets did not inform me correctly, they did not say that it costs much more less to perform one in my vet and the internist said it was 4000$ and that it's dangerous and blah blah , I know now that it's not dangerous but I have to stop her treatment which means she has to be sick again and I don't want that. So I will go to a holistic vet. I trust herbs and natural remedies a lot. Slippery elm bark helped my kitty a lot with her diarrhea.
If you kitty doesn't have diarrhea he is in very good path. There are so many natural treatments against vomiting. You can search the forum it's really helpful. Good luck to your kitty?
So sorry to hear about your kitty. You might want to start your own thread to get more views and/or responses
Best wishes for your kitty
My kitty had large cell lymphoma and testing is the only way to know the difference between IBD and cancer as is my understanding. I do believe the Predisone treatment is the the protocol for both. I think the main difference is that lymphoma (large cell) is terminal and quickly, IBD is manageable and cats can still have a long life. There are many others who are familiar with this more than me and I m sure will chime in
Best wishes for your kitty
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Hi, Arinlars:
First, I think one has to decide on a path - holistic or alopathic. It is hard to combine both. I was using slippery elm and then found out it can interfere with the absorption of meds. This is a critical point if I am trying to bring down an inflammatory process with pred (low dose) and metaclopramide (for persistant hairball vomiting). Holistic vets may say you can combine both but I was down that road years ago with a holistic vet in Oregon that was treating my beloved Kiku for severe asthma, and let me say that I would never ever do that again unless the vet was HERE. And then, you have the issue that supplements/herbs are not researched and tested - unfortunately, in my opinion - because there is no profit motive there. Sad.
On the biopsy issue, it is my understanding that when a cat has been on a steroid, the pathologist may or may not be able to determine what is going on. Why should I spend $4000, which I dont have, to subject my cat to an iffy procedure, especially when the treatment protocol is the same?? We have to be judicious about our own health care dollars, and those of our beloved furry friends. So Obi is on 2.5 mg pred, w hich is a low dose, and if I can keep him there, even if it is indefinitely, he is 15 and I dont think that will hurt him any. No, he does not have diarrhea or constipation, and I am wondering what others think about this. Also, his chemistry panel was very normal except for the positive reading on the SNAP. In fact, in late Feb. some values were slightly elevated, and are now normal.
Ruby, I am so sorry about your cat. Thank you for the words of support and encouragement. Yes, the treatment is the same for both, so it seemed unnecessary to do any more diagnostics at this time.
I did ask for B12, and for whatever reason, Obi seems a lot more himself this morning and did not vomit hair this morning or anything else, and yes, when he does vomit, it is hair and not food.
I have been slowly chipping away at the IBD kitties thread. Thank you all and in advance as well. I love this site, its a godsend.
First, I think one has to decide on a path - holistic or alopathic. It is hard to combine both. I was using slippery elm and then found out it can interfere with the absorption of meds. This is a critical point if I am trying to bring down an inflammatory process with pred (low dose) and metaclopramide (for persistant hairball vomiting). Holistic vets may say you can combine both but I was down that road years ago with a holistic vet in Oregon that was treating my beloved Kiku for severe asthma, and let me say that I would never ever do that again unless the vet was HERE. And then, you have the issue that supplements/herbs are not researched and tested - unfortunately, in my opinion - because there is no profit motive there. Sad.
On the biopsy issue, it is my understanding that when a cat has been on a steroid, the pathologist may or may not be able to determine what is going on. Why should I spend $4000, which I dont have, to subject my cat to an iffy procedure, especially when the treatment protocol is the same?? We have to be judicious about our own health care dollars, and those of our beloved furry friends. So Obi is on 2.5 mg pred, w hich is a low dose, and if I can keep him there, even if it is indefinitely, he is 15 and I dont think that will hurt him any. No, he does not have diarrhea or constipation, and I am wondering what others think about this. Also, his chemistry panel was very normal except for the positive reading on the SNAP. In fact, in late Feb. some values were slightly elevated, and are now normal.
Ruby, I am so sorry about your cat. Thank you for the words of support and encouragement. Yes, the treatment is the same for both, so it seemed unnecessary to do any more diagnostics at this time.
I did ask for B12, and for whatever reason, Obi seems a lot more himself this morning and did not vomit hair this morning or anything else, and yes, when he does vomit, it is hair and not food.
I have been slowly chipping away at the IBD kitties thread. Thank you all and in advance as well. I love this site, its a godsend.
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- #107
The biopsy is also too much for some kitties, you never know how they will respond. On the other hand is useful to know.. That was my biggest dilemma I honestly don't know what to do and the money wasn't the issue so much as "will I make my kitty worse ?" And mind the my internist told me we can always find out later as we can do the surgery later which is wrong.. My vet told me there is no chance we can see a clear disease if she is no prednisolone..
I did not know that about slippery elm bark that can interfere with prednisolone.. Also it's hard to find a vet that really knows what he is doing. My Mimi is fine now but her poop is usually yellow and pink. I tell the vet all that they tell me they don't know or they don't answer my calls, and I just found out that my internist just left the clinic to go to another state.. Sigh
So Obi still vomits with 2.5mg prednisolone? How often does he take it?
I did not know that about slippery elm bark that can interfere with prednisolone.. Also it's hard to find a vet that really knows what he is doing. My Mimi is fine now but her poop is usually yellow and pink. I tell the vet all that they tell me they don't know or they don't answer my calls, and I just found out that my internist just left the clinic to go to another state.. Sigh
So Obi still vomits with 2.5mg prednisolone? How often does he take it?
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Yes, Obi vomits HAIR, not food, generally. his pred is 2.5 mg daily. That is not a high dose. I have had cats on many times more than that, and I am OK with it. However, the past month or so, when he has worsened, I havebeen giving SEB, which can interfere with absorbtion. So, I am not doing that now as of Saturday. He is 15 and I want him to be comfortable. I know that what you said about biopsies and ultrasounds on pred is true.
So, what I have been doing with the pred/slippery elm may have been counter productive. : (
So, what I have been doing with the pred/slippery elm may have been counter productive. : (
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She has not .. She stays the same 3.29kg for a month from 3.50kg as she used to be keep in mind she is 11 years old and all of her life she was around 4kg. Next month I will take her to another internist but I am not sure if I want an internist or holistic vet .
I'm not clear on what is $4,000?? To diagnose our kitty, I believe it was around $400 with sonogram and biopsy
What are they charging you for?
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Hm, They can tell if it's large cell or small cell through testing the small specimen they take. There was no need to explore anything, at least for us. The ultrasound showed the mass-like area which was really thickened stomach lining. Perhaps I'm still confused, but what are they exploring for?
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@Ruby, oh my gosh, where do you live?? an ultrasound would have cost me between $300-400, and that is not a surgical procedure. An ultrasound is often inconclusive, especially if the cat has been on steroids, which Obi has. So I believe - others pls correct me if I am wrong - t here is a surgical biopsy and an endoscopy. I think the cost of a surgical procedure was over $2000. In any case, Obi is 15 and I am not going to put him under. Arinlars has figures for these procedures that are more in line with what I was told.
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@ruby I did an ultrasound and it only showed thickened intestines that's it :/ they told me they could not see more and an endoscopy wouldn't show anything . I'm going a new vet now on July since the old one quit his job .
They told me a laparoscopy would make sense but it costs $4000. I'm in the human medical field and I know they could do an ultrasound with a needle biopsy but they said that couldn't be done with this case..... Sigh kitty is ok she eats a lot , plays a lot just her poop is yellow with a pink hue ( sorry for the gross description ) and sometimes it's runny like a tootsie roll .....(gross I know )
They told me a laparoscopy would make sense but it costs $4000. I'm in the human medical field and I know they could do an ultrasound with a needle biopsy but they said that couldn't be done with this case..... Sigh kitty is ok she eats a lot , plays a lot just her poop is yellow with a pink hue ( sorry for the gross description ) and sometimes it's runny like a tootsie roll .....(gross I know )
@myrnafaye.
@arinlars
I'm on the East Coast. Yes, the ultra sound with the needle biopsy was around $300-400. The internist asked our permission to do them together should the ultra sound show anything and we agreed. He said it would save us time and money. This is why I wasn't sure what the $4k was for? Maybe I'm confusing myself on theses posts?
@arinlars
My kitty's stomach was thickened in one part, which is what showed as a mass. She also had small thing near her heart and her lungs. They got cell samples from the stomach and tested those. I know it's hard. Hang in there! P.S. My kitty never had weird poop.
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- #117
@arinlars
I've mentioned this before and I will mention it again - not to tell you what dosage pred your cat should be on and i am not telling you to change the dosage, but i am urging you to discuss with a vet why your cat appears to be under dosed? The link below, a very mainstream and reputable site says the standard starting dosage for Pred is 2mg/kg of body weight and for your cat that would be 2mgx3.9kg=6.58mg of Pred. My cat is on a conservative dose of 5mg once daily because of other health issues, but severe IBD may need 10mg per day, and you cat is well under even my cat's dose and isn't gaining weight.
Normally, vets start with a higher dose and taper lower once they see positive results rather than starting with a low dose that does nothing.
This quote is from http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/dig...lammatory_bowel_disease_in_small_animals.html
"Corticosteroids may be useful for both small- and large-intestinal disease. Initial dosages are 2 mg/kg/day for prednisone or prednisolone and 0.25 mg/kg/day for dexamethasone."
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- #119
I called again because I'm truly conserned and he said to increase it to 2 times per 2.5mg a day for 2 weeks and then decrease it to 1 a day per 2.5 mg he said that kitty is too tiny for more... I'm panning to call the other internist too but unfortunately they never call back so I will go to another vet in 2 weeks
@arinlars
Well that's up to 5mg per day which is starting to sound reasonable. But the measure of what is working is whether there is weight gain or not so to tell you to do a dose for x weeks and then cut back doesnt even take into account if its working or not, the ONLY real measure of whether the pred is working or not is if there is weight gain.
What was your cats weight before this all started?
Well that's up to 5mg per day which is starting to sound reasonable. But the measure of what is working is whether there is weight gain or not so to tell you to do a dose for x weeks and then cut back doesnt even take into account if its working or not, the ONLY real measure of whether the pred is working or not is if there is weight gain.
What was your cats weight before this all started?
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