The truth about carrageenan

[emilymaywilcha]

Emily, what about hydrolysis?

I was just thinking if hydrolysis is what makes carrageenan bad for cats certainly we don't want them to be eating hydrolysed guar gum either. But if guar gum is not dangerous when it is hydrolysed, I will not worry about it.

 

[carolina]

I was just thinking if hydrolysis is what makes carrageenan bad for cats certainly we don't want them to be eating hydrolysed guar gum either. But if guar gum is not dangerous when it is hydrolysed, I will not worry about it.

Emily, Hydrolysis, FYI, is generally the split of a molecule/chemical bond by the addition of water. Depending on the conditions, you can have acid hydrolysis.
What Laurie was talking about, which degrades Carragerran, is Acid Hydrolysis - Read Carefully, from her post:

Acid hydrolysis, which is dependent on pH, temperature and time, may hydrolyse (degrade) Carrageenan in solution at higher temperatures but this takes place only when Carrageenan is dissolved.

Read what would take to cause the same to Guar Gum (actually from your post)

Strong acids cause hydrolysis

So, there is more to it, then just the word "hydrolysis". This process for example, can be beneficial actually...... Have you heard of Hydrolyzed Proteins? Used in prescription diets for allergic animals and baby formulas for infants who are lactose intolerant?

 

[emilymaywilcha]

I assume if Dr. Pierson uses guar gum in her recipes there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[ldg]

Guar gum is used as a fiber, because it can absorb up to 20x its weight in water.

And no, hydrolysis in and of itself is not an issue. It's simply a chemical process in manufacturing.


The problem with carrageenan is that degraded (low molecular weight) carrageen is cancerous. The carrageenan in our foods is supposedly undegraded (high molecular weight). But acid breakdown of high molecular weight carrageenan can create low molecular weight carrageenan. Apparently this can occur in the process of digestion, so even though carrageenan in our food can start as "safe," "undegraded" carrageenan, through the process of digestion it can become the cancerous, low molecular weight, "degraded" carrageenan. Carrageenan is the problem, not the process of hydrolization.

Though in a very quick search of guar gum, I did find this:

Guar gum may slow down the absorption of sugar into your bloodstream after eating. Although many people would consider this a positive attribute, for diabetics this can cause glucose fluctuations, interfering with other drugs and treatment plans. According to Shire Pharmaceuticals, guar gum is potent enough to be "used as an adjunct to other antidiabetic drugs in the treatment of diabetes mellitus." Consult your physician before incorporating guar gum into your diet if you have diabetes.

.....

Flatulence, stomach distention and intestinal obstruction are common side effects of guar gum. Guar gum may swell up to 20 times its original amount, producing carbon dioxide and hydrogen during fermentation in the large intestine. If you suffer from irritable bowel syndrome, monitor your guar gum intake closely.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/339250-problems-with-guar-gum/


So at least for kitties with diabetes and IBD, it seems guar gum should be avoided.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

So if your cat does not have IBD or diabetes, the food should have guar gum?

 

[carolina]

The problem with carrageenan is that degraded (low molecular weight) carrageen is cancerous. The carrageenan in our foods is supposedly undegraded (high molecular weight). But acid breakdown of high molecular weight carrageenan can create low molecular weight carrageenan. Apparently this can occur in the process of digestion, so even though carrageenan in our food can start as "safe," "undegraded" carrageenan, through the process of digestion it can become the cancerous, low molecular weight, "degraded" carrageenan. Carrageenan is the problem, not the process of hydrolization.

:nod: Thanks Laurie

As for Guar Gum, I did not know about the diabetes thing.... Interesting :nod:
I did know about fermentation.... (I think that's why Dr. Pierson says the poop will stink) It didn't cause any ill effects on Bugsy.... I did stop feeding it to him as he simply didn't like the taste very much.... I did use it for a little bit when he was constipated....
There was such a discussion at the time about not using anything coming from plants, that I just stopped feeding though.

 

[ldg]

So if your cat does not have IBD or diabetes, the food should have guar gum?

Why are you thinking guar gum should be in cat food? I'm just wondering what the train of thinking is here. :dk:

 

[carolina]

So if your cat does not have IBD or diabetes, the food should have guar gum?

Emily, the discussion here, was if Guar Gum is dangerous for cats, and thus an ingredient to be avoided, such as carrageenan.
To round this up, Guar Gum in canned pet foods is used as a thickening agent, that's all - it has little to none nutritional benefits. It is not a vitamin, not a supplement.... Not really something you would be looking for as being beneficial for your cat.

The question is,
Is it Dangerous?

As Laurie has posted, if your cat has Diabetes, it can be an issue. You either want to avoid it, use it under medical supervision, or at the very least keep in mind that it can affect sugar levels.

Also, it might be an irritant for IBD cats - like many, many things can be. For my Bugsy, it was not. If you have an IBD cat, you either want to avoid it, or, know that this ingredient can be ingredient causing inflammation on your kitty's digestive system. If you add a food with this ingredient to your IBD kitty's diet, you should watch it very carefully for any ill effects.

Benefits:
Guar Gum is a strict soluble diet, which, when added to the diet (as a supplement/fiber), can help with digestive problems such as constipation. The difference in between Guar Gum and Psyllium, is that psyllium swells and dries up the poop too much, and if the kitty is too constipated, it can have the opposite effect - 1-getting stuck to the intestinal walls causing blockage, 2- causing Megacolon. Not good things at all.
Guar gum as a strict soluble fiber, doesn't swell the poop as much, and it helps to soften the poop, preventing the above issues.
It is the natural version of Miralax, if you will, but is is a fiber.
I hope this helps you a bit......

 

[pat]

Good summary post Carolina!

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Why are you thinking guar gum should be in cat food? I'm just wondering what the train of thinking is here.

If Dr. Pierson thinks it has nutritional value as a fiber, apparenlty it is good for cats without IBD or diabetes.

Of course, the people who praise pumpkin for treating constipation probably will say there is a way to do it without stinking up poop.

Now I will start looking for cat foods with no psyllium because I don't want a constipated cat.

 

[finnlacey]

Carrageenan has been scientifically proven to instigate IBD in both animals and humans:

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/carrageenan-just-dont-do-it.html

http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.01109983

 

[ldg]

Here are Dr. Pierson's comments regarding fiber in the diet:

Fiber - A cat's natural diet is extremely low in fiber. Contrary to popular belief, the hair and feathers of their prey is not a source of fiber. Fiber only comes from plant material - not other animals. The only source of fiber for a cat in the wild is the miniscule amount in the gut tract of their herbivorous/omnivorous prey or the plants that they may eat. Since cats don't generally chow down on much plant material, this is also a negligible source of fiber.

When I first started feeding raw, I used psyllium whole husks but I did not see much difference in their stool consistency. It was still very dry and and low in volume but then I came to realize that this was normal for a cat eating a diet like this. I was just so used to the big, bulky, stinky stools of cats fed commercial canned and dry diets.

For the next 8 years, I added no source of fiber.


Recently, Robbie, my best buddy with no colon whose picture adorns the top of all web pages on this site, has needed his stools softened due to an anatomic abnormality in his intestines. I have chosen to use guar gum powder but I am not adding it to the entire batch. I am just adding it to individual meals so that I can play around with the amount.

I am using ~1/8 per 3 ounces of food. If you are going to try it, start with 1/8 tsp and work up from there. Also, add more water to the food since fiber 'soaks up' water.

There are two types of fiber - soluble and insoluble. Psyllium is a combination of both types. Guar gum is strictly soluble. I use this source of fiber because it does not seem to add as much bulk to the stool when compared to insoluble fiber but it does increase the water content of the feces, thereby softening it.

Soluble fiber also has some properties that promote intestinal (colon) health.

If you want to use psyllium, add 2 tsp if using psyllium husk powder. If using whole psyllium husks, use 4 tsp.

If using any fiber source, be sure to add more water to the this recipe.

The emphasis in bold is NOT my emphasis, it is written that way by Dr. Pierson on the site: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

It's always a good idea to go to the source. Dr. Pierson is using a fiber (guar gum) for one cat due to a specific medical condition.

 

[ldg]

Carrageenan has been scientifically proven to instigate IBD in both animals and humans:
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/carrageenan-just-dont-do-it.html
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.01109983

Thank you for these links!!!!

 

[finnlacey]

I had more but about a month ago my computer crashed and I had to reformat and lost all of my saved links! Grrrrr. LOL Now I have to find these all over again. I had some good ones too. 

 

[violetxx]

Just to add to the list of canned food without carageenan:

-Blue Wilderness Wild Delights

-Blue Bistro

-Lotus

-Taste of the Wild

-Newmans Organic

-Fromm

-Tiki cat (depends on flavour)

-Wellness Healthy Indulgences Pouches

Now I will start looking for cat foods with no psyllium because I don't want a constipated cat.

 Huh? Cat foods do not contain psyllium? You may find psyllium husks in cheap brands. Aren't you feeding grain-free high protein wet foods?? 

Emily, the discussion here, was if Guar Gum is dangerous for cats, and thus an ingredient to be avoided, such as carrageenan.
To round this up, Guar Gum in canned pet foods is used as a thickening agent, that's all - it has little to none nutritional benefits. It is not a vitamin, not a supplement.... Not really something you would be looking for as being beneficial for your cat.
The question is,
Is it Dangerous?
As Laurie has posted, if your cat has Diabetes, it can be an issue. You either want to avoid it, use it under medical supervision, or at the very least keep in mind that it can affect sugar levels.
Also, it might be an irritant for IBD cats - like many, many things can be. For my Bugsy, it was not. If you have an IBD cat, you either want to avoid it, or, know that this ingredient can be ingredient causing inflammation on your kitty's digestive system. If you add a food with this ingredient to your IBD kitty's diet, you should watch it very carefully for any ill effects.
Benefits:
Guar Gum is a strict soluble diet, which, when added to the diet (as a supplement/fiber), can help with digestive problems such as constipation. The difference in between Guar Gum and Psyllium, is that psyllium swells and dries up the poop too much, and if the kitty is too constipated, it can have the opposite effect - 1-getting stuck to the intestinal walls causing blockage, 2- causing Megacolon. Not good things at all.
Guar gum as a strict soluble fiber, doesn't swell the poop as much, and it helps to soften the poop, preventing the above issues.
It is the natural version of Miralax, if you will, but is is a fiber.
I hope this helps you a bit......

But do cats really need fiber if their diet is species appropriate? It may have benefits for cats with constipation issues (which is debatable), but what about cats without those problems? I don't think it would be a good idea for them to be ingesting fiber (guar gum) even though its soluble on a regular basis. 

Speaking of foods with guar gum, I've just recently taken Naddie off all carageenan foods (about 2 months now), and she's strictly eating wet foods with guar gum instead and since then I've noticed that her stool has a thin layer of liquid on the outside (sorry to be gross) and now I'm starting to wonder if the guar gums making her stools sticky. 

 I am really really really thinking about transitioning to raw right now... 

 

[kittylover23]

Guar gum is useless to cats. If you want to add fiber to a cat's diet, why not use something more accessible and safe like canned pumpkin?

Pet food manufacturers only include guar gum for cosmetic reasons (so the product seems more appealing to the consumer). Even though it is useless, it does seem harmless, as well. (Except for more litterbox odor). It doesn't seem to have a huge effect on a cat's health. I would take guar gum over carrageenan any day. Though, I would avoid guar gum in pet foods - Cookie's litterbox is stinky enough!

 

[ldg]

But do cats really need fiber if their diet is species appropriate?

No. Even in in her discussion of the subject, Dr. Pierson points out she only uses it for her cat with a medical issue.

The OP asked about guar gum. Carolina was simply addressing some misconceptions Emily posted about.

 

[kittylover23]

• Carrageenan is used in many cat foods and some human ones (hello cheap ice cream!), but it seems  the government is mighty slow at heeding the latest research about it.
• Degraded carrageenan, which occurs at high temperatures and acidity, has been associated with ulcerations in the gastro-intestinal tract and gastro-intestinal cancer in animals. Before freaking out about that, do know that we aren’t sure if the carrageenan in pet food has been degraded or not, and one study of various samples of human foods with carrageenan found no degraded carrageenan.
• But, a quick review of several research articles cited by Wikipedia says that, at the very least, even regular (nondegraded) carrageenan looks guilty of suppressing the immune system and inflaming the intestinal lining–which, I might add, is the kind of thing that causes intestinal bowel disease (IBD). Some of my favorite cat food companies don’t seem to have heard about this particular study on non-degraded carrageenan yet.

http://www.naturalcatcareblog.com/2011/07/stunning-info-about-human-grade-cat-food-and-carrageenan/

So there is a link between carrageenan and IBD (which can cause intestinal lymphoma)?

 

[finnlacey]

IBD does not cause intestinal lymphoma all the time. IBD is severe inflammation and depending on the amount of inflammation and the amount of steroids and immune suppressing drugs the cat is on, it CAN lead to lymphoma. But there are MANY, MANY, MANY kitties who never develop lymphoma. There are other factors involved also, including being stabilized with their IBD, the amount of symptoms they have, etc. 

 

[finnlacey]

OH! Great link btw, thank you very much.