The Right Queen Of My Catstle. . .

Which girl would you choose for breeding?

  • Girl A (Russian)

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Girl B (Domestic)

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2
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  • #21

MistyDawn

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The English language bottle of foaming hand soap on the counter bothered me in a Russian household - it's exclusive to Bath and Body Works. A little checking, however:

"Ленинградское шоссе" ванны магазин - Google Search

shows that they have one store in Moscow:

Bath & Body Works, фирменный магазин косметики, Ленинградское шоссе 23 км, 1, Химки — 2ГИС

so if the photos were taken in a Russian household, it's a pretty affluent household.
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No, no, this is the American cattery. I may have mixed up my girl A and girl B. This is my little American baby. I see something in her, in her wide muzzle, in her chin being strong for a female of her age, in her eye and ear set, her coat, her look. I think her pictures are desaturated, because none of the colors look right. It's a mistake some people make when trying to correct for room lighting yellow balance, especially if they use an auto-color on an app or program.

Newer pics of her coming.

Also, if you have your heart set on buying a European Maine Coon, in that case I would suggest taking a trip to Europe and meeting breeders there. The FIFe show calendar is here: Fédération Internationale Féline :: Show Calendar

Here is an idea: There is a Maine Coon specialty show in Poland, June 30-July 1st. Here is the web site of the show, it is in Polish but you can run it through Google Translate: Międzynarodowa Wystawa Kotów Rasowych - International Cat Shows - Sopot 2018 - Cat Club Amber, Sopocki klub felinologiczny
With a specialty show they are likely to have a large number of Maine Coons and you can meet the breeders and handle the cats. I went to a European show a few years ago that happened to have a Norwegian Forest Cat specialty and they had a huge number of them at the show, it was amazing.

I've made international trips to visit shows and import cats from overseas, and it's totally worth the trip, as well as being a wonderful experience. But I wouldn't import a cat sight unseen from pictures alone.
I have been wanting to take my husband to Denmark, a country I spent 3 months in, and adored, anyway. Maybe we'll do a little European tour. :) He runs a band so maybe we can bring the guys and use my connections in the scene to get a few small gigs while we're there. Could be fun!
 

lutece

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Here is an interesting article about how to choose a kitten for newbie breeders. It is written for Bengal breeders, but much of the advice is applicable to any breed.
Bengal Kitten Selection
First step: "Stop looking at kittens" :)
One thing I like about this article is that the method described here strikes a balance between trusting your own judgement and working with mentors. It encourages you to choose a few very specific features that you will initially focus on in your breeding program, and to make yourself as much of an expert on these features as you can, while relying on your mentor(s) to help you not go too far astray with the rest of the cat. Being very specific about your breeding program's focus is a good plan. Also, it's good advice to take your time and choose a cattery or bloodline first, then be patient waiting for the right kitten.
 
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MistyDawn

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People are gonna think I'm nuts, but those ears just bothered me. I just couldn't do it, knowing that it may be passed down to the babies and hurt the look I'm going for. I want my brand of Maine Coon to look like lynx-eared lions. So I'm going for the "chunky face" look, a rugged edge that's hard to describe, and ear perfection. I want big, but I won't put size over type. I'm trying for the best of both worlds. Both girls come from 26lb fathers. It's a tough comparison, especially with that darned age gap, but I had an idea.

I got more recent photos of the Baby B, and, instead of comparing them to the older girl, compared them to Alaska at her age, who turned out very well. While her chin isn't as strong as his (the majority of kittens', especially females', aren't. He looked ridiculous and deformed in his one-week photos because his chin was disproportionately huge, but I knew he'd grow into it and it'd be a very strong chin.), her muzzle is even wider than his, with a nice little square shape. As her ears mature, her lynx tips are popping out, thick and dark, and her ears are perking up and aligning with her eyes quite well. Buying from Russia is a gamble, always. Sure, you can ask for every little piece of evidence, but you can falsify anything if you're clever enough. I ask for video to make sure the cat acts healthy, but even sick cats have good days, or can be coerced to play long enough for a short video.

This will have to be my last USA purchase, until I decide if I'm going to hazard line-breeding (If I do, I have very high standards for how far apart the two cats will be down the line); I believe the breeder of Baby Girl B, who only have one male that is 100% European, so I can't buy from them again, is the only USA European Maine Coon breeder I haven't bought from that allows purchase of breeding rights, at least as far as I've looked, (If you guys know anybody besides ArtCityClaws and Jinxie's Den, I'm all ears, much like young Euro Maine Coons, haha) so from hereafter, I'll be dealing with Russia and the Ukraine. As for the Russian breeder, I've made a deal with them, because they're a big, reputable, and well-known breeder that my little inner circle I've made speaks well of, to get my next male from them. I want my next male to be black, black smoke, or dark tabby, and they produce all three, and do it beautifully. If I can get a black smoke, that's the optimal goal, but solid blacks are gorgeous, too, and dark tabbies are classic, but I think my chosen queen will already make those (her father, as you saw, is a black/grey tabby)

And lutece lutece I know, I know. Kittens are unpredictable. When I first laid claim on Alaska, before I even brought him home, I thought "Well, I'll have a pet Maine Coon with a nice chin." I did not buy breeding rights initially. When I saw the way the wind was blowing as he grew, I realized "I've got a potential show taker here", and sheepishly asked the breeder if I could pay the fee retroactively, to which she kindly agreed, God bless her. It took me until 4-5 months to be sure. Call this one a gut feeling. Like I said, people are gonna say I'm making a mistake, but if you buy American, you have to buy young. It sucks, but that's how it is. I appreciate your advice, and I know it's the smart thing to do, but this decision has made me start studying baby/adult photos in search of what will become what, and to figure out the trends. I know what I'm doing is still just educated guessing, and either cat is a gamble, because we know Russia isn't the best place to go for honest business. One thing I do appreciate about the Russian market is that they sell cats at 4-6 months, where you've got a good idea of what it is you're getting. I'd been going by the rest of the how-to almost exactly, funny enough. My 3 features are muzzle shape, ears, coat (with size in the line being a cherry on top, but not required). Chin isn't a big deal; Alaska will most likely pass this on to most of his kittens. The parents are what really led my decision. The parents of the baby were the cats that, when I checked out the cattery, were my favorites, and isn't that male just jaw-dropping? Just going off of genetics and looking at baby/adult feature correlations, I'm pretty certain in my choice. I may be wrong, and I may waste money, but if I do, I'll learn my lesson, keep her as a pet, and go with a Russian breeder. Whatever qualities this queen does not have, I will prioritize in my next one, to even things out and allow eventually for me to develop my line by crossing the offspring of the two, especially once I find Male 2, or as I call him, "Tall, Dark, and Handsome", which, barring some look that just inspires a name, like that tortie I missed out on, will probably be his show name.

If anyone has advice on show names, and if they even matter, I'm also listening on that. Alaska is Artcityclaws Alaskan White Lion. I'm going for more poetry in the future. Maybe even literary references. My new girl is going to have a very catchy name. I hope she gets her dad's size, as size can hurt females in the ring, and I want to show all of my cats.
 

lutece

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If anyone has advice on show names, and if they even matter, I'm also listening on that.
My advice on that is: With the names of individual cats, just have fun with that! But put plenty of time into choosing and registering your cattery name. It is your "brand" and it is likely to stay with you through all of your years of breeding.

Make sure your cattery name works with both CFA and TICA registration rules for cattery names, so that you will not end up with different cattery names in the different associations (I know people that have that problem). Check to make sure it is available in both CFA and TICA. And go ahead and register it in both CFA and TICA. You may think that you will never show and register kittens in more than one association, but it is a good idea to get the name registered just in case you decide in the future to do so.

Don't make it too long, I highly recommend having a short cattery name because it will give you more freedom in choosing the names of cats, and you will always be able to fit it on the end of the names of cats that you buy from other breeders.

And finally if you think you are going to be working with European breeders in the future, talk to people who speak those languages and find out how your cattery name sounds to them.
 

lutece

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I want my brand of Maine Coon to look like lynx-eared lions.
There are quite a few articles on that Bengal breeder's site about the differences between small forest-dwelling wild cats vs. large wild cats. You may find their analyses interesting if you are considering what features make a cat look more lion-like. For example: Rule of Thirds - The Front Third
 
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MistyDawn

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lutece lutece You're right, this is great reading. I'm bookmarking that website, along with some other resources I'm using, like a growth chart of a bunch of Maine Coons from a breeder, divided by sex, so I can see how my cats/kittens match up. Alaska has consistently been either on the higher end or heavier than all of them his whole life, so I'm happy. I think feeding Orijen helped. He's his father's weight and not at all overweight at 8mos. His grandfather was 22lbs. I think he'll probably be around that weight, 24 at most. He's a hearty growing boy.

And my planned cattery name is Lions of Europe. I'm registering after I get my queen, but that's what I'm thinking. I'll translate it into a few Eastern European languages and see how it sounds. A friend who's fluent in German already worked it out for me in German. I'm not quite fluent, but able in Danish, and it works in Danish. I need to go further East, into the Slavic languages.

Edit: Tested it in Russian and Slovak. Sounds alright.
 

lutece

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TICA cattery names are 15 characters max but cannot include spaces or hyphens. In order to register this name in TICA, you would have to run it all together like this: LIONSOFEUROPE and it would come out capitalized like this: Lionsofeurope. CFA cattery names are 12 characters max, including spaces. So in CFA you would have to drop one of the characters to keep it to 12 characters max. I suppose you could make it just one lion, like this: LIONOFEUROPE. You might want to think about alternative lion-themed names, though.
 

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Take the length of your cattery name into consideration. A longer cattery name limits the length of the cats name - a mistake I made when i picked Posiepurrs.
 

lutece

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Take the length of your cattery name into consideration. A longer cattery name limits the length of the cats name - a mistake I made when i picked Posiepurrs.
Yes, I actually started out with a long cattery name, but after one year of frustration with its length, I registered a different short cattery name, and that is what I have used ever since.
 

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The obvious photoshopping in the photos of the gorgeous black tortie is so weird. Something was up, and probably not just editing out video game equipment. If they’re altering edges, image what they may have done with the color. I think you are totally right to buy the American kitten, since you can visit first...and, since you say you have lots and lots of money, you could probaby afford to go to Russia and meet some cats and breeders there. Do you have a Russian-speaking friend who lives in your city? You could invite her along as a language and cultural translator. If you don’t have a friend like that (yet) maybe you could find one via Nextdoor or similar. You do need a visa to go to Russia, but people do it all the time; as long as you’re a US citizen (with lots of money LOL) it shouldn’t be too difficult.
 

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PS
I'm not sure how you feel about puns, but how about Taiga Cats ;)
 
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MistyDawn

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TICA cattery names are 15 characters max but cannot include spaces or hyphens. In order to register this name in TICA, you would have to run it all together like this: LIONSOFEUROPE and it would come out capitalized like this: Lionsofeurope. CFA cattery names are 12 characters max, including spaces. So in CFA you would have to drop one of the characters to keep it to 12 characters max. I suppose you could make it just one lion, like this: LIONOFEUROPE. You might want to think about alternative lion-themed names, though.
Thank you for this information. You are very knowledgeable! I will ponder on other names but I do like the lion theme for Maine Coons. I even have a logo planned out that will resemble a coat of arms, flanked by two lions. There is a legendary coalition of male lions that really wowed me, called the Mapogos. I have toyed with just calling the cattery Mini Mapogos. I like alliterations. I just don't know if there would be some kind of copyright issue there, since it is the name of the most famous coalition of male lions to ever live. My Alaska comes from a cattery called ArtCityClaws, so you see why I'm used to long cattery names.


The obvious photoshopping in the photos of the gorgeous black tortie is so weird. Something was up, and probably not just editing out video game equipment. If they’re altering edges, image what they may have done with the color. I think you are totally right to buy the American kitten, since you can visit first...and, since you say you have lots and lots of money, you could probaby afford to go to Russia and meet some cats and breeders there. Do you have a Russian-speaking friend who lives in your city? You could invite her along as a language and cultural translator. If you don’t have a friend like that (yet) maybe you could find one via Nextdoor or similar. You do need a visa to go to Russia, but people do it all the time; as long as you’re a US citizen (with lots of money LOL) it shouldn’t be too difficult.
Okay, so I'm not the only one seeing the Photoshop? That makes me feel a bit better about my skepticism. The picture was very enticing, but the more I looked at it, the worse I felt. Tell me, does the background look like a texture to you too?

Also, just to clear things up, I never meant to imply I'm a millionaire or anything. "Lots and lots of money" is a bit of a mischaracterization. You won't find Bernie Sanders yelling at me, haha. We make about 200K combined per year, not an absurd amount. We just don't have kids yet, my husband has a pretty good career, and I have a small media job and a few businesses that are going well thus far, all done from home, because I am disabled (and no, I'm not on any disability program; that goes against my ethics, in my situation). No kids = easy mode. That's like being a teacher and living with your parents. I know a guy in his 30's who's Mr. Moneybags with a 3K guitar because he's a teacher living with his parents lol. We just have the easy road. We don't even have it as easy as we should, because I need hundreds of dollars of medication per month.

Anyway, come to think of it, I know a native Russian. Only problem is, I think they hate both my husband and me. It's a long, drama-filled story, and there's a lot of politics involved, because, of course there is. Still, if offered money and the promise we will ask what their gender is every 5 minutes to make sure it hasn't changed again, they might agree to help us. I could probably find someone else who's more agreeable though. I recently met someone at a show I attended who speaks Russian, and also aspires to breed. I don't know her too well yet. Maybe if I take time to get to know her, we could go to Russia and maybe each get a cat from time to time, with me paying some on her expenses for her help.

Another idea: I picked up what I know of Danish just from 3 months of staying in the country. I have a mind for languages. I could just take a few hours a night for a year and learn Russian. I already know some Cyrillic. I hear Russian is no easy tongue to learn, but I could at least learn enough to talk buying cats. "Show me the pedigree." "I want this male/female" "Show me the genetic tests." "How much do the parents weigh?" "When do these two breed?" etc.


PS
I'm not sure how you feel about puns, but how about Taiga Cats ;)
I love puns, and I really love geography puns. That's genius! I'll put that one up at the top of my ideas. If you see a Maine Coon with Taiga Cats in front of the name some day, you'll have all the bragging rights.
 
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MistyDawn

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Just to add about that breathtaking tortie with the obviously Photoshopped photos... they never explicitly said she was sold. I asked for my standards of proof and they never replied. That looks pretty bad, no? It may have just been that they could not take video of her because they did not have her, or she is a Photoshopped amalgamation of several cats for best qualities. In fact, I went to their website and there was no sign of this kitten for sale! They even keep sold kittens up if littermates are still available. Nothing, not a single photo of her. There was a similar female, with, curiously, all of the same facial markings except a splotch of white on her chin. It's almost like they Photoshopped her and tried to pass her off as a second female? That is my current guess, after some digging.

For anyone who ever tries to do business with Russians, please take great care. Poverty is rife in Russia. People need money, and are turning to dishonest means to get it from Americans. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is, and research the crap out of the breeders. One I know and can vouch for is Captain Coons. I plan on buying from them in the future because they are well known in my circle with a good reputation and my research has shown that they do sincere good business (also, their orange and white male has a chin that makes Alaska's look weak! He is truly a sight to behold.) but always, always research your catteries. As I venture into this world, I will try and review Russian catteries to give more information on them and be a sort of guide into this side of cats.

Also upon research, I have decided wholly against line-breeding, but rather cementing my "brand" by finding cats who match my target look in Russia, and match my 3 priorities: muzzle, eye/ear, and coat, with size as a cherry on top but not a top priority. On the breeder only sale group I watch on Facebook, there are stunning beauties every day, so finding a cat that could fit my image won't be hard, especially if I am right about my theory of kitten to adult feature development, which I will write about at length once my experiments are confirmed. Until I have the means to fly over myself, I will be buying with much care from afar.

Would it hurt my brand to incorporate American cats that still have the look I am aiming for into my cattery? ArtCityClaws has an American that, if you didn't know she was American, you'd just assume was European because she nails the look, so now I am considering this as an option as well, meaning I would be a TICA and ACA registered cattery, registering all of my cats to both, to make things easier. . . especially because I have a hateful aunt who breeds British Shorthairs, and I want to go to an Alabama show to beat her with a gorgeous Maine Coon, and I don't know which organization she shows with. I think British Shorthairs are mostly a TICA breed, but I'm no expert, so I may be wrong.

Last thing I want to address: I know I have yet to write my appraisal of ArtCityClaws, Alaska's breeder. I'm just waiting until he reaches adulthood so I know things like his 1year weight, genetic test results, and how he fares in a show. I've attended a show, but he has not yet participated. I doubt he will take his first show, as he'll likely be a bit shy the first time, because, let's face facts, there's a big difference between a PetSmart tour, taking him to the park, begging clerks at truck stops for me to bring him in and letting them pet him, and a big audience with strangers poking and feeling his every feature. But he is a ham, so I think that will be to his advantage once he's gotten used to the scene. I want to write a very thorough review, as writing is one of my skills, and I also have a heavy background in science so writing with laboratory standard objectivity and precision are in my skillset, so I want to write the most comprehensive review I can, and be able to put my feelings of friendship towards Shirley, his breeder, aside to be objective. I don't want to just have a fun little cattery. I want to better the breed, make it easier for others to do the same, and give people an idea of who to buy from. I don't do small ambitions. That's how I have what I have. I want to become a driving force in the European Maine Coon world, and a force for good.

And mightyboosh mightyboosh I just wanna say, your profile picture gets me every time. I have a cattery crush on the cat in your profile picture (I'm taking it that's Boosh?) I'd love to see more photos.
 

lutece

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Would it hurt my brand to incorporate American cats that still have the look I am aiming for into my cattery? ArtCityClaws has an American that, if you didn't know she was American, you'd just assume was European because she nails the look, so now I am considering this as an option as well, meaning I would be a TICA and ACA registered cattery, registering all of my cats to both, to make things easier. . . especially because I have a hateful aunt who breeds British Shorthairs, and I want to go to an Alabama show to beat her with a gorgeous Maine Coon, and I don't know which organization she shows with. I think British Shorthairs are mostly a TICA breed, but I'm no expert, so I may be wrong.
Hi MistyDawn,

I think it depends on your reason for breeding. If you want to produce show quality Maine Coons, I think it is a wonderful idea to blend American and European lines. There are fantastic American lines out there, and some really great breeders to work with, too!

It's possible that incorporating American lines might negatively affect your brand if your main goal is to sell pets for high prices. You will see web sites out there for Maine Coon breeders that don't show, charge relatively high prices for their kittens, and advertise imported European lines. Hopefully your purpose in breeding is not primarily to produce and sell pets, though.

I wouldn't bother with registering in ACA (American Cat Association) since it's so small. I would stick with TICA and CFA since those are the major associations.

As far as where British Shorthairs are shown, they are popular all over the world and in all the major associations; there are large numbers of them in CFA and TICA, as well as GCCF and FIFe. If you want to compete with your aunt at a show, you'll need to check with her to find out which shows she'll be at (or at least which association she shows in).
 
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MistyDawn

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Hi MistyDawn,

I think it depends on your reason for breeding. If you want to produce show quality Maine Coons, I think it is a wonderful idea to blend American and European lines. There are fantastic American lines out there, and some really great breeders to work with, too!

It's possible that incorporating American lines might negatively affect your brand if your main goal is to sell pets for high prices. You will see web sites out there for Maine Coon breeders that don't show, charge relatively high prices for their kittens, and advertise imported European lines. Hopefully your purpose in breeding is not primarily to produce and sell pets, though.

I wouldn't bother with registering in ACA (American Cat Association) since it's so small. I would stick with TICA and CFA since those are the major associations.

As far as where British Shorthairs are shown, they are popular all over the world and in all the major associations; there are large numbers of them in CFA and TICA, as well as GCCF and FIFe. If you want to compete with your aunt at a show, you'll need to check with her to find out which shows she'll be at (or at least which association she shows in).
You would be correct as for my purpose in breeding. Alaska is technically only 75% European, but can you tell? Nope. He looks like what comes to mind when you think European. I need to take new pictures as he's getting very large, but his features look more or less the same since they did at about 4 months, maybe just with a wider head to make those big ears look a bit better. I care about look and quality. I want, as I've said, to make a dynasty of amazing Maine Coons. He doesn't look much different from this picture at only 4mos. His eyes are in fact blue. The camera just decided it didn't want to pick it up here. They're only really blue around the pupil, more silver from there, and they have remained this color since he was about this age.


Leska 20weeks.jpg



I meant CFA. I don't know why I typed ACA. Long day, and I was up late last night, so if I say something stupid, it might be that, or just that I fell backwards down a flight of stairs as a baby and still have a gash in the back of my head, lol. That's gotta be life-long brain damage! Jokes aside, I've heard about some amazing breeders not even too far from here (at least in trucker/trucker's wife miles; anything under 700 miles away is "pretty close" to us), that I'd love to deal with. I've also introduced Alaska's breeder to Ophelia's (my new little queen's) breeder. Alaska's breeder is getting this extraordinary new queen, Angel, in July. She told me today she's going to proposition Ophelia's breeder to breed Angel to Pepper, Ophelia's dad. She wants a male and a female from the pairing. If there is an extra female, I'm going to buy her, because that's a pairing to die for! Since Ophelia's breeder uses one of Alaska's breeders males, I have no doubt they'll agree. I am very excited, and will probably get my second female from this pairing (Can't get a male for obvious reasons).


Angel.jpg



See, I want to win against my aunt because she's, well, not my favorite human. Not my favorite snake either. She isn't even my favorite aunt, and my only other aunt tried to fraudulently sue me over an inheritance decided when I was 3 that she was left out of because she had nothing to do with my grandmother, who the inheritance was from. This woman, the one who breeds British shorthairs, ostracized me from the time I was able to talk, because she was jealous of my father. She and her daughters have treated my mother, brother and myself like dirt, just because of that. Now, she thinks she's some kind of high society because she runs a cattery. It's purely a status symbol for her. I actually care about the breed, and run a rescue as well. I legitimately love cats. This only occurred to me somewhat recently. Beating her in the ring would just be satisfying, you know? I don't really hold a grudge, but taking some of that inflated narcissism from her would just be nice. I've cut her and her equally as toxic daughters out of my life. This would just be closure. But because she's cut out of my life, I would have to have another relative, maybe my father, do some recon to find out what shows she's going to and what association she shows in. It's something I might not even do. It's just a funny, albeit a little mean, thought, but a healthy way to give her the finger, haha. It'd feel good, you know? Beat her with a stunning Maine Coon, wink at her from the lineup in the best in show call. I'd definitely work my way to it. That's something I'd do when I knew the ropes well and I know for sure I've got champion material on my hands, if I can get a kitten with Alaska's good traits with a perfect nose.
 

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I have never done stud service so can't be of help with that question. However I would suggest talking to the breeders at a show. I know of FAR to many who have imported a cat sight unseen other than photos only to end up with a sick pet quality cat. I am very cautious when buying a cat. I want to handle the cat/kitten before making up my mind. Most of the time you can't see dq qualities, they must be felt.
I agree with you for the most part. There are exceptions. I will be seeing my new kitten for the first time the day I pick her up from the breeder. However, this is a breeder I've known for years and have seen many of her cats at shows, including the sire of my kitten.

Before I got my first aby I had seen him at show and then went to visit the cattery before I took him home.
 

lutece

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I am very excited, and will probably get my second female from this pairing
It's great that you are excited about your breeding program, but I would highly recommend that you slow down and not start thinking about your second female before you get your first one :) As a breeder you will face a constant temptation to add exciting new cats to your breeding program, but you must resist the temptation or you will be rapidly overwhelmed!!!!!

Show your male and your first female, and watch how they develop. Handle other peoples' cats, watch other peoples' cats develop, talk to other people and learn as much as you can. See what you get in your first litter. Whether or not you keep anything for yourself out of your first litter, watch your first kittens develop, at least to young adulthood, and see how they turn out. After that, you will have a bit more information about your first male and female, and clues about what they can produce. That in turn will give you clues about what you might need to add to your breeding program with your second female.

As you said, there are lots of beautiful Maine Coons out there. There will still be lots of beautiful Maine Coons out there after your first litter grows up :)
 
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