The problem with home made diets and how to analyze your diet

[ravencorbie]

I agree that a balanced diet is important, which is one of the reasons I'm currently planning on just doing commercial raw until I've done more research.  When I've done more research, I plan to follow recipes and guidelines from vets and feline nutritionists.  There are at least 3 vets recommending balanced homemade diets (Dr. Pierson, Dr. Becker, and Dr. Hovfe).  Of those, Dr. Pierson is also a feline nutritionist (not sure about the others, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were, too).  I don't know ANY other vets who are also nutritionists, and there is compelling evidence that most vets only get 1 semester on nutrition, and that course includes nutrition for ALL animals, not just cats.  Therefore, I trust Pierson, Becker, and Hovfe on the subject of nutrition more than a regular vet whose main focus is probably other issues.  Actually, my own vet referred me to Dr. Pierson's site when I asked her about feline nutrition.

I think having an analysis would be useful, but very difficult, since variety is so important.  Right now, I'm still on canned food, and I give Iris a different brand/flavor every day.  I know the variety probably will slow down with my own recipes, since I won't be able to make up new meals every night, but still, to have each version tested by an analyst would be very difficult.  Laurie made some very good points, particularly about bioavailability:  fresh, whole ingredients will always be better -- both for humans and animals -- than highly processed foods, and the AAFCO bases their guidelines on a diet that is processed, to which things do need to be added.  But evolution has shown that wild cats in their proper environment thrive very well on prey with a little bit of grass -- so if you're feeding them prey, there probably aren't any deficiencies.  The trick seems to be to make sure you are including EVERYTHING that is in the prey animal, instead of worrying about specific elements/vitamins/minerals.  Reasoning:  there may be things in the prey animal that we *haven't* considered as a source of nutrition that the cat DOES need, and there may be things that we think, as humans, that they might need, that aren't in the prey animal, and that therefore, they don't really need.  I feel more secure trusting nature on this than the pet food industry and AAFCO, which, as Laurie pointed out, allow all kinds of awful things in "approved" cat food.

Personally, I think the whole prey diet is probably best, but my concern there is still with bones.  I have a feeling I'll be doing a frankenprey diet with human grade bone meal.  But as I said, I still have more research to do.

 

[peaches08]

Who's guaranteeing the nutrient analysis of the vitamins/minerals? Last I heard the FDA wasn't. Also, when feeding something like liver, why would I add more vitamin A? And what do I risk in doing so?

As far as my cats, they each had different intolerances on canned. Their coats were lackluster, lower energy, and diarrhea. Either the canned was lacking in something my cats needed, or something was added that isn't needed.

The best way to analyze a diet would be to review the animal in question as well. As far as my vet, he is more than impressed at the health of my cats and wishes all cat owners would feed as I feed mine.

If canned cat food is so healthy, would you eat it? Maybe just take a human multivitamin? I can honestly say that I trust Dr. Pierson's recipe much more than canned.

 

[ldg]

Thank you for your further thoughts on the issue of AAFCO because I got a little frustrated at your lack of acknowledgement of the issues raised about the AAFCO guidelines.

I used to argue against homemade diets, raw in particular, and gave a lot of TCS members quite a few headaches. :lol3: And I had the same questions. The argument of those supporting prey model raw was basically "evolution." I have no problem with that. I care for a lot of ferals, have for over a decade, and I do a lot of advocacy work. I'm very current on most of the research on feral cat predation/diet, and I see my cats hunt and eat; I just supplement what they eat.

But I don't know any raw feeders providing a diet of whole animal only, let alone whole animal raised in natural conditions.

The USDA has both wild and domestic rabbit in its database; same for beef. There has also been research written on the nutritional differences (especially as re: the fat profiles) of grass fed animals and penned vs pastures animals. And let's face it, the feed of our chickens is hardly what my grandfather's chickens ate, being tossed a handful of chicken feed, appropriate table scraps (they loved watermelon rinds) and being left to run around and eat grains, seeds, and bugs. I laugh at the "vegetarian-fed" chickens. Great, so ground up cow garbage isn't in their feed. Chickens aren't vegetarians.

So from that point of view, I don't disagree with you. My point, my concern, is/was that not only do we not know what is missing from "the model" of a mouse or rabbit or whatever, but even if we purchased whole mice and rabbits, they weren't fed naturally and weren't running around in a natural environment. And while there are studies that show small rodents or rabbits in some places make up the bulk of a cat's diet, it is never 100% of it.

How much does that matter? :dk:

And where does that leave us?

Some trust the prey model is accurate enough. Meat, bone and organs, including heart, and as much variety as possible; usually supplemented with eggs and sardines.

When I wanted more control over the diet i feed my cats, but I didn't want to feed ground food, yet I wanted to know what the Ca ratio was... it was a quandry. Using eggshell and MCHA for fresh bone substitue was an easy choice as we know their mineral profiles. Building the tables using data from the USDA database was easy, so for anyone that wants control over their Ca ratio, TCS (thanks to Carolina's Bugsy with IBD and Lucky, who couldn't properly manage bones), is now "home" to the concept of "boneless" prey model raw. :lol3:

As to your question about having a vet or nutritionist review the diet I feed, my answer is a vet is just about the last person I'd turn to for creating a raw diet. Most are scholled in "nutrition" by Royal Canin or Hill's, and don't know enough about species-appropriate feeding.

In the end, that's what this is about. Not just getting individual nutrients into our cats, but getting fresh, whole foods, delivered in a species-appropriate format, into our cats.

mschauer has written a program (perfected over the years and with a lot of time and effort) that compares a menu of foods, using the USDA database, to AAFCO guidelines. It's not perfect, because the USDA database is missing a fair amount of information on inputs raw feeders use.

But interestingly, it has enough information to provide within an acceptable confidence level (if you're familiar with statistical analysis) whether or not a menu plan or recipe likely meets AAFCO or not.

I think she should charge for the analysis, personally. But when a number of us were transitioning to raw all at the same time, she offered to analyze our menus. I took her up on the offer. And I must say, I was honestly really surprised at how well, and how closely, a PMR diet, with a variety of proteins and just chicken liver and beef kidney does meet AAFCO. I already pointed out the deficiencies and how to correct them nutrionally.

Later, I did get concerned about the manganese, given its role in joint health, and one of my kitties has very little of the ball joints left in her hips. So I took the homemade vitamin mix Dr. Becker recommends in her book for a PMR diet (with eggs and sardines), and worked with mschauer to adapt it to the needs of my particular diet.

Of course, not all of the ingredients in my menu have complete data in the USDA database. But mschauer sends up the menu list with a table of the nutrients with those missing data marked. This makes it easy to determine with a measure of confidence whether or not the nutrient in question is really a cause of concern.

Finally, there are suppliers of ground whole animal. Many people choose this feeding option, knowing that over time their cats are eating everything in a cow, chicken, quail, llama, rabbit, muskrat, pig, mouse, turkey, lamb, etc. Many supplement with one of several products meant to meet AAFCO and compensate for loss of nutrients from grinding and freezing.

So while i don't completely discount AAFCO, having spent an inordinant amount of time learning about pet food regulations, how they were developed, and learning about the ingredients in pet food... I'd rather take my chances of my cats' diet not being "perfect;" though I have taken steps I feel comfortable has minimized that risk.

Of course, for many, raw is an option of last resort. Their cats have been vomiting constantly or having diarrhea, or itching themselves bald, and prescription foods or elimination diets, or traditional meds haven't helped. They didn't WANT to feed raw. But when their cat becomes a healthy, happy, energetic, soft-coated, normal non-smelling pooping cat again with no crystals and a perfect urine pH, well.... are they going to worry about exact numbers we dont know are meaningful in such an easy-to-digest, highly bioavailable, species-appropriate diet that clearly agrees with their kitty?

All of my vets say "treat the cat, not the numbers." That's what many feeding a raw diet are doing.

P.S. All my cats have had blood work done shortly after starting raw and since then, 1 to 1.5 years later. My cat with FHA is in remission after an 8-year battle, and his HCT is 45%. My cat with FIV that had mowed his abdomen bare and had chronic diarrhea has a full, thick, amazing soft coat, and can eat any raw food without diarrhea. My FLUTD cats have no crystals and perfect urine pH, save my stress kitty, and I control her pH with methionine (under vet direction). My cat with cancer (large cell lymphoma, "massive mass" in his stomach) has been in remission almost 1.5 years, almost 2x longer than average. We switched to raw while while he was in chemo.



Having seen my cats thrive on this diet (when I would have sworn they were thriving on canned), I truly understand why most people who feed this diet stop worrying about "the numbers." I "get" that from an evolutionary standpoint, their bodies want this.

 

[ldg]

Peaches, I don't know why your cat was sick on canned food, for all I know it was an individual problem (food intolerance/allergy). 

Yes, and for cats with "allergies," IBD, or IBS, a raw diet can clear up the problem the day that cat is fully transitioned to 100% raw. Not always, but we've seen it happen so often now that in the health forum here when the many people posting with these problems ask for help, one of the most frequent replies you'll see is "have you considered a raw diet?"

Just as more and more people are having problems with IBD, allergies, eczema, and food sensitivities, so are our cats. Some people need gluten-free diets, others need the GAPS diet, and some just eat fresh, unprocessed foods and that's sufficient. Our immune systems are under attack from the highly processed diets so many of us eat; the insane list of vaccinations now required for our children, and our cats are no different. People thrive on non-processed food and fresh fruits and vegetables. Why should cats and dogs be any different? Only for cats, the "fresh fruits and veggies" equivalent is fresh meat, bones, and organs. I always tell people if they're nervous and can't afford commercial raw that's already balanced, just feed raw treats up to 15% of the diet. Numerous sources agree it's not going to cause nutritional problems to feed that amount unbalanced, so supplement that canned diet with fresh food.

Of course, in cats the "highly processed" food is often complicated by damage done to organs and/or intestines from species-inappropriate ingredients, or damage done from being chronically slightly dehydrated from eating kibble.

It seems like there are hundreds of raw/home-made diets mentioned on the web and in books. Some of those diets are probably deficient, some are probably better balanced, but how do you really know?  My concern is that there are a lot of people (probably not you guys since you took the time to read all this), that are out there feeding imbalanced diets to their cats just because someone wrote a book on it or because someone put some information on the web.

:nod: Yes, it's scary.

But since our commercial pet foods are making so many animals ill, I understand why when people find something that solves the problem, they don't question further. And thank goodness for sites like TCS, where people who are asking the questions can get help and suggestions on how to improve their homemade diets.

 

[peaches08]

LDG, exactly. Mine cleared up within 24 hours of starting their first raw meal. I made the decision to never feed canned again since they felt so much better. Not the ideal way to transition, but mine were fine. So I took the canned to the shelter and haven't looked back. In the event of a hurricane, my grinder/supplements will go with me.

As far as variety, I wish I could find more variety and afford it. For now I give chicken thighs (some deboned), or add in a different meat to eliminate some of the deboning. But I feel my cats are better off overall on a chicken only diet from Dr. Pierson than what was going on with canned. And how many cats are on dry food of only one flavor? While variety is a great thing and I agree with it, sometimes we're doing the best that we can. But I'll take my best over commercials' best.

Now, as far as unbalanced homemade diets? Mmmm, I'm reminded of unnecessary horrors in which the animals suffered. I would much rather someone feed anything commercial rather than BS a homemade diet and hurt the animal in the process. Most of us have said/advised that and often to newbies. Or, as LDG mentioned, offer the 15% raw rule to let them get their toes wet and go from there.

 

[mschauer]

Peaches, I don't know why your cat was sick on canned food, for all I know it was an individual problem (food intolerance/allergy). 

Yes, and for cats with "allergies," IBD, or IBS, a raw diet can clear up the problem the day that cat is fully transitioned to 100% raw. Not always, but we've seen it happen so often now that in the health forum here when the many people posting with these problems ask for help, one of the most frequent replies you'll see is "have you considered a raw diet?"

I think we are getting a bit off topic here. Sarah Ann isn't arguing against feeding a homemade diet. She is basically just asking why people are not concerned about possible deficiencies. Or maybe we aren't really off topic but it seems to me we might be forgetting that she isn't arguing against a homemade diet.

I think the answer to her question is that people who don't do some sort of analysis of their diet basically just have faith that their diet is nutritionally complete despite not knowing the exact nutrient composition of it or at the very least what ever deficiencies there may be are less of a concern than the problems with commercial processed foods. That is really what it boils down to. Seeing the improvements in their cats, in some cases dramatic health changes, is one of the reasons for that faith.

 

[otto]

I think the answer to her question is that people who don't do some sort of analysis of their diet basically just have faith that their diet is nutritionally complete despite not knowing the exact nutrient composition of it or at the very least what ever deficiencies there may be are less of a concern than the problems with commercial processed foods. That is really what it boils down to. Seeing the improvements in their cats, in some cases dramatic health changes, is one of the reasons for that faith.

Or, has someone advising them that they trust.

 

[mschauer]

I think the answer to her question is that people who don't do some sort of analysis of their diet basically just have faith that their diet is nutritionally complete despite not knowing the exact nutrient composition of it or at the very least what ever deficiencies there may be are less of a concern than the problems with commercial processed foods. That is really what it boils down to. Seeing the improvements in their cats, in some cases dramatic health changes, is one of the reasons for that faith.

Or, has someone advising them that they trust.

Good point!

 

[ldg]

I think we are getting a bit off topic here. Sarah Ann isn't arguing against feeding a homemade diet. She is basically just asking why people are not concerned about possible deficiencies....

I think the answer to her question is that people who don't do some sort of analysis of their diet basically just have faith that their diet is nutritionally complete despite not knowing the exact nutrient composition of it or at the very least what ever deficiencies there may be are less of a concern than the problems with commercial processed foods. That is really what it boils down to. Seeing the improvements in their cats, in some cases dramatic health changes, is one of the reasons for that faith.

I think I mentioned that at the end of my long, rambling post, but that was the point. The rest was context.

And yes, good point, otto.

...which gets back around to Dr. P's recipe. Even though it doesn't meet AAFCO numbers, Dr. P formulated it on a different basis, and as it has apparently met the test of both time and numbers, it would seem the trust is not misplaced. Of course, those who choose to analyze it and improve upon it do, by using other proteins and/or including kidney, etc.

But as to why people don't worry about deficiencies from unknown diets, or recipes in books by authors that aren't trained in animal nutrition, I don't know.

 

[mschauer]

Laurie (LDG) found a reference to a recent study on the nutritional adequacy of homemade diets for dogs. Even though the study did only look at diets for cats their findings likely apply to homemade diets for cats also. 

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10666

There really isn't anything in it that hasn't already been discussed in this thread. By "nutritionally adequate" they are referring to whether or not the diet meets AAFCO or NRC recommendations. I'm posting it just because it is relevant to the thread topic and because the issue of nutritional adequacy is a subject that should be of interest to anyone who chooses to feed a homemade diet to their cat.

I purchased the full text of the study and have included several excerpts below. I think the article linked to above is a pretty accurate summary.

Two hundred recipes were obtained from 34 sources (133 recipes were obtained from 2 veterinary textbooks and 9 pet care books for owners,10–20 and 67 recipes were obtained from 23 websites21–46). Of these, 129 (64.5%) were written by veterinarians, whereas the remaining 71 (35.5%) were written by nonveterinarians. 

...

Only 3 recipes provided all essential nutrients in concentrations meeting or exceeding the NRC RA, and another 2 recipes provided all essential nutrients in 

concentrations meeting or exceeding the NRC MR; 

... 

The most commonly deficient nutrients, when compared with the NRC MR or NRC RA, were zinc (138 [69%] recipes), choline (129 [64.5%] recipes), copper (108 

[54%] recipes), the combination of EPA plus DHA (107 [53.5%] recipes), and calcium (70 [35%] recipes)

...

Of the recipes for which complete nutrient information for these vitamins was available for all ingredients, 102 of 167 (61.1%) were too low in vitamin D and 79 of 175 (45.1%) were too low in vitamin E

...

Some deficiencies were so severe that nutrient concentrations did not reach 50% of the NRC RA; these included diets deficient in vitamin D (97/102 [95.1%]), 

zinc (76/138 [55.1%]), choline (56/129 [43.4%]), and vitamin E (31/79 [39.2%]). Nine recipes surpassed the safe upper limit for vitamin D, and 6 surpassed the safe 

upper limit for the combination of EPA plus DHA.

...

Deficiencies in these recipes may translate to adverse clinical effects when fed on a long-term basis. For example, diets deficient in choline can cause weight 

loss and fat accumulation in the liver,8  and vitamin D deficiency may cause substantial musculoskeletal abnormalities, particularly in growing puppies.8  For some nutrients (eg, zinc and vitamin E), clinical signs of deficiency may appear only after a prolonged period of feeding a deficient maintenance diet.8  Severity and temporally of clinical signs associated with inadequate nutrient intake may also vary with the degree of deficiency, and many recipes analyzed provided less than 

half of the NRC RA for several nutrients.8

FYI: There is no established safe upper limit of EPA plus DHA for cats.

The study made heavy use of computer based analysis such as what Sarah Ann described in the first post of this thread. The researchers tested the accuracy of this method by performing laboratory analysis of 15 of the diets. They found the computer analysis method was reasonably accurate when compared to the laboratory analysis but they recommend applying a safety factor to targeted values. The paper contains quite a bit of discussion on the differences between a computer based analysis and a laboratory 

analysis. If anyone is actually interested in trying to make use of the USDA database to analysis their homemade diet as described by Sarah Ann I strongly recommend purchasing ($30) the full text of this study. 

Computer-based analysis was highly predictive of deficiencies or excesses of nutrients as measured via laboratory methods, which supports the reliability of computer-based analysis for use in detecting inadequacies in recipes; however, discrepancies were found, and absolute values of specific nutrient concentrations differed by up to 62.1%. Because complete laboratory analysis of home-prepared diets is costly and not practical in most circumstances, recipes for home-prepared diets should include a safety margin for each nutrient to account for variations in ingredient nutrient profiles, digestibility, bioavailability, and other uncontrolled factors that may influence the final composition of a diet

 

[ldg]

Thanks for posting this - along with the excerpts.

Interestingly, I just re-read the Plantinga et. al 2011 study again (Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats ) and in light of these discussions, found Table 5 to be very interesting: it's a comparison of recommended nutrient composition vs. what they found (average) to be the diet of feral cats (with very limited access to human food) in the meta-analysis. It only includes protein, fat, and the macro minerals (calcium, phosphorus, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, copper and zinc). None of the recommendations by the NRC resemble the consumption of feral cats in the wild. There is discussion of potential reasons for this, bioavailability being the main one. But given the protein and fat are so bioavailable in the prey species for cats, that doesn't explain the much lower protein and fat recommendations by the NRC, it would only explain it for minerals via bone.

My point is that... as the UC Davis paper I linked to in an earlier post points out, without studies of bioavailability, there's really no way to know what the recommendations should be.

 

[mschauer]

None of the recommendations by the NRC resemble the consumption of feral cats in the wild. There is discussion of potential reasons for this, bioavailability being the main one. But given the protein and fat are so bioavailable in the prey species for cats, that doesn't explain the much lower protein and fat recommendations by the NRC, it would only explain it for minerals via bone.

 

But the NRC recommendations aren't meant to reflect the diet of a feral cat in the wild. They are meant to inform anyone trying to formulate a diet for a cat what the nutrient profile, as well as can be determined, of that diet should be to ensure the well being of the cat. When looking at what we believe to be the natural diet of a cat we have to remember that they don't exactly have a choice with regards to the protein and fat (and other nutrients for that matter) content of what they consume. In other words it is a pretty big assumption to say that the nutrient content of the feral cat diet represents the exact requirements, no more and no less, for our house cats. That is highly unlikely. Some nutrients in the wild diet may be consumed in excess and so are biologically wasted while others may well be present in less than optimal quantity. 

I wouldn't find it at all surprising that the protein and fat needs of a cat fighting for survival in the wild might be higher than that of our pampered house cats. 

My point is that... as the UC Davis paper I linked to in an earlier post points out, without studies of bioavailability, there's really no way to know what the recommendations should be.

Bioavailability doesn't affect the recommendations. The recommendations specify the quantity of nutrients required by cats. It is up to the diet formulator to ensure that quantity of nutrients is provided in a bioavailable manner. Otherwise there would have to be a separate set of recommendations for every possible combination of diet ingredients.

The article you linked to was pointing out that we don't know the bioavailability to cats of all nutrients in all ingredients used by the pet food industry (and those used in homemade diets, btw) and that that would have to be known in order to ensure recommendations are satisfied.

 

[ldg]

But the NRC recommendations aren't meant to reflect the diet of a feral cat in the wild. They are meant to inform anyone trying to formulate a diet for a cat what the nutrient profile, as well as can be determined, of that diet should be to ensure the well being of the cat. 

But that's the point of the study - to help improve the recommendations of what's best for cats.

When looking at what we believe to be the natural diet of a cat we have to remember that they don't exactly have a choice with regards to the protein and fat (and other nutrients for that matter) content of what they consume.

Which is what was so interesting about this Plantinga et. al study in combination with the study done by Waltham (Hewson-Hughes et. al 2010 Geometric analysis of macronutrient selection in the adult domestic cat , where our house-cats, when given various protein-fat mixes all chose to eat diets that centered around what their wild counterparts eat without the choice.
.

In other words it is a pretty big assumption to say that the nutrient content of the feral cat diet represents the exact requirements, no more and no less, for our house cats.

And I wasn't saying they were/are. But for raw feeders, the comparison may be important at least to consider, especially as to the minerals, because the inputs raw feeders use are in a more natural form (usually - well - for non-ground bone-in prey model raw feeders, anyway).

The point being... there are other sources of information - outside of the NRC / AAFCO that can help inform people making home-made food.

I guess... when I saw the info on the homemade dog food analysis, I was a bit surprised that calcium would be low in so many diets. That's why I went and looked up the Plantinga study. I remembered reading their speculation about the difference in bioavailability of bone vs calcium supplements.

 

[mschauer]

In other words it is a pretty big assumption to say that the nutrient content of the feral cat diet represents the exact requirements, no more and no less, for our house cats.

And I wasn't saying they were/are. But for raw feeders, the comparison may be important at least to consider, especially as to the minerals, because the inputs raw feeders use are in a more natural form (usually - well - for non-ground bone-in prey model raw feeders, anyway).

The point being... there are other sources of information - outside of the NRC / AAFCO that can help inform people making home-made food.

I guess... when I saw the info on the homemade dog food analysis, I was a bit surprised that calcium would be low in so many diets. That's why I went and looked up the Plantinga study. I remembered reading their speculation about the difference in bioavailability of bone vs calcium supplements.

We don't know that the diets in the study that were found to be nutritionally deficient per NRC or AAFCO recommendations would be found adequate when compared to the findings of the Plantinga study.

Even if someone were to choose the Plantinga study results as their preferred profile to compare their homemade diet against they would still need to know what the nutrient profile of their food is in order to make the comparison. Which is what the point of this thread is. 

Edit:

It should be noted that the study researchers didn't do any investigation to determine whether animals fed the supposedly nutrient deficient diets came to any harm as a result.

I think there is a lot of valuable information and discussion in this thread that can be used to make intelligent decisions with regards to making a homemade diet. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of concrete conclusions we can come to based on that information. But it does no good to take a head in the sand attitude towards questions we don't have all the answers to. If the questions are legitimate, and I think questions regarding the nutritional adequacy of our homemade diets are, we should be willing to discuss them even if ultimately we can't come to solid conclusions.