The Anti-supplement View

[sophie1]

I just ordered a case of food from My Pet Carnivore...sorry Hare Today, but I compared prices and MPC is cheaper for a 26 lb order. And they have decent variety right now, which isn't always the case plus I like their standup deli containers, coarse grinds, and mixes that simplify foodmaking.

Several purveyors of raw food, MPC included, advocate against supplements, stating that all that's necessary is to provide a good variety of foods. The breeder who raised my cats also does not supplement and she's rather upset at me for doing so. She feeds exclusively Nature Variety for dogs (it's cheaper than the cat food) plus heart & liver freeze dried treats. If all these people are eschewing supplements but otherwise feeding responsibly, why is it that their cats are perfectly healthy even after long periods of time?

I'm well aware of the disastrous results of the UC Davis ground-rabbit diet study, so I'd have a hard time not at least giving added taurine, but I'm curious about how non-supplemented feeding is actually working, and whether feeding a variety and the coarse grinding are indeed enough to avoid nutritional deficiencies.

 

[mschauer]

I'm probably elaborate more later but just as a quick response: There are a couple of problems with with your statement "If all these people are eschewing supplements but otherwise feeding responsibly, why is it that their cats are perfectly healthy even after long periods of time? "

First you use the qualifier "but otherwise feeding responsibly". What exactly do you mean by that? What does it mean to "feed responsibly" when not using supplements? The lack of an authoritative answer to that question is a problem. You can find many different answers in various places on the web. Are they all right? If not which ones are?

The bigger problem is the anecdotal nature of "why is it that their cats are perfectly healthy even after long periods of time?" How do we really know that? It may be true. It may not be true. All we know is what people are willing to tell us. We assume they are being completely up-front with us about any possible problem they have encountered. And it doesn't have to be a question of dishonesty. They may have experienced a problem that they didn't recognize as diet related. Or they may be in denial when told a problem was diet related. Or they may not want to admit that a feeding method they advocated for may be flawed.

[Edit:]Could be that a cat actually did do very well on a supplement free diet for many years. But what exactly was fed? As I stated above, there are many supplement free methods. Which one was used? And how were the ingredients sourced? Were they farm raised and so more nutrient dense than the standard grocery store equivalent? Also, an individual cat may be less sensitive to a particular nutrient deficiency than the average cat.

And, how many people have actually encountered problems but are hesitant to make their experience public for fear of backlash? I've seen posts in online forums where someone has tried to discuss a problem related to following what they understood to be responsible raw feeding without supplements. They invariably post in a raw feeding forum which of course is full of advocates for raw feeding. The typical response to such posts is usually rather brutal and along the lines of denying the problem had anything to do with the feeding method.

There are so many unanswered questions when all you have is anecdotal information.

I actually don't have any problem with the idea that a diet of raw animal parts can be nutritionally balanced without adding supplements. The problem is knowing the minimum requirements for such a diet. Many people believe they are duplicating a cats "natural diet". But I can't see how providing a cat with bits and pieces of animals can be seen as being nutritionally equivalent to a diet of fresh killed whole rodents and lizards.

In formulating a nutritionally complete diet the best information we have available, IMHO, is from controlled studies to determine what the nutritional needs of a cat are. It isn't a perfect approach but adhering to the nutrient minimums determined from such studies is a less error prone approach. Those studies do give us some definitive answers with regards to some nutrients. Other answer are less definitive but at least they aren't based on outright guessing.

Whew. I thought it was going to be a quick response! The "to supplement or not" question is one that usually invokes heated discussion. The "no need to supplement" approach just relies too much on guess work for my comfort. When a controlled, long term study proves that approach to be safe I'll gladly adopt it. Otherwise I'm sticking with the "go with what we know" approach which means supplementation is necessary.

BTW, the amount of supplementation can be minimal when a wide variety of animal based ingredients is used. But minimum requirements for what that variety is needs to be understood and adhered to. And some people simply won't have access to what is needed for such a diet. Some suggestions for what needs to be included as supplements is based on the understanding that some people will have limited access to animal parts that could supply the needed nutrients in a more natural manner.

 

[missmimz]

You're going to find raw feeders, especially those in the PMR groups, that think even ground whole prey doesn't need to be supplemented. I'd say, if you're feeding a huge variety of proteins, maybe, *maybe* you don't need to supplement, but the real question is why take that risk? It's easy to supplement to be sure you're feeding a balanced and complete food. I don't know why MPC is telling people they don't have to supplement, I think that's dangerous. MPC seems more affordable, but their whole ground proteins are super high in bone and they seem to be evasive about that.

 

[orange&white]

I've been told that because I don't grind my cats' diet, but rather "chunk" all their food, that I have no need to add supplements. I add supplements (Taurine, B-Complex, E, Lite Salt and egg yolks) for "insurance".

The explanation that because air degrades these vitamins and ground meat gets "more air" than chunks, then a ground meat diet is the only one that needs supplementation doesn't really fly with me. (Temperature and freeze-thaw cycles impact nutrients as well, but those variables should be essentially the same with either chunks or ground.)

I imagine two people making identical batches of cat food, starting with the exact same ingredients at the exact same temperature. One is using a cutting board to process; one is putting everything through a grinder. Both people pack the still-cold meat into tubs and store in deep freezers that are the exact same temperature.

You can't convince me that the person using a grinder needs to add thousands of mg's of additional Taurine and hundreds more vitamin-B's, etc., than the person using a cutting board and a knife. Seems to me that either both need to supplement, or neither needs to supplement to end up with similar nutritional matrices in their food.

Anyway, I may be wasting money on supplements, but none of the "basic" supplements build up in the cat's system. They are water soluble and excesses are excreted in the urine or feces. I'm not willing to risk deficiencies which may be created during any type of processing.

I do know people who own healthy, happy cats which have been fed an unsupplemented raw PMR diet for life over several "cycles" of cats. I just don't want to be the person who owns the cat that develops a nutritional deficiency from not supplementing. It's insurance, and it makes me feel more comfortable.

 

[mschauer]

Something just very belatedly occurred to me. Some MPC products are whole body grinds like chicken which include all organs, head and feet. When using a grind like that supplementing may well not be needed. In fact care should be taken to NOT add supplemental iodine (as is found in the lite iodized salt called for in some recipes). The thyroid gland found in a true whole body grind provides plenty of iodine and adding more runs a very real risk of over supplementing it.

You should be sure you know what a whole body grind really includes though. A "whole carcass" chicken for instance normally will not include all organs.

 

[sophie1]

Well this certainly elicited a range of opinions....

I'm also in the "why take a chance" camp, as I do supplement. I'm just increasingly curious that apparently many don't, and without consequence. It's not like there's really solid research to guide the decision. And to answer a question from mschauer: the breeder I referred to who doesn't supplement has probably a better standard than most to judge her cats' health: her breeding cats get thorough medical surveillance including annual lab work and echocardiograms. There's also the Pottenger cat study, in which cats were fed a mix of raw meat and milk but without supplements, and did well through several generations.

Supplementing is easy, true, but it's a barrier. I thought it would be so much easier just to defrost each 2 lb tub, maybe shake on a bit of taurine at serving time, and that's it. The procedure of defrosting, mixing in supplements, portioning and refreezing is enough of a barrier that it has led me to add some canned & freeze dried food, just because I sometimes get so busy (e.g. with frequent business travel and also spending most of my free time taking care of an aging parent) that I can't set aside the time for foodmaking. Well, if that's the case, maybe I'm better off feeding unsupplemented food if that proves more sustainable, at least part of the time. And if this is true for me, I imagine it's the case for others as well. Thus the idea of starting a conversation, even knowing I'd get some flames. No problem with that!

 

[mschauer]

I'd be interested in knowing which comments you consider "flames". I think all comments have been quite civil.

But anyway, what I've always thought about the non-supplementers is that the true, real reason they believe supplements aren't necessary is primarily because they want it to be true because it is easier. In other words it is easier to convince them supplementing isn't needed because they want to believe it. I'd love to believe it myself. It would be soo much easier.

What exactly does your breeder feed? Nutritional deficiencies and the illnesses caused by them won't necessarily show up in the standard annual lab work ups.

 

[valentine319]

Well this certainly elicited a range of opinions....

I'm also in the "why take a chance" camp, as I do supplement. I'm just increasingly curious that apparently many don't, and without consequence. It's not like there's really solid research to guide the decision. And to answer a question from mschauer: the breeder I referred to who doesn't supplement has probably a better standard than most to judge her cats' health: her breeding cats get thorough medical surveillance including annual lab work and echocardiograms. There's also the Pottenger cat study, in which cats were fed a mix of raw meat and milk but without supplements, and did well through several generations.

Supplementing is easy, true, but it's a barrier. I thought it would be so much easier just to defrost each 2 lb tub, maybe shake on a bit of taurine at serving time, and that's it. The procedure of defrosting, mixing in supplements, portioning and refreezing is enough of a barrier that it has led me to add some canned & freeze dried food, just because I sometimes get so busy (e.g. with frequent business travel and also spending most of my free time taking care of an aging parent) that I can't set aside the time for foodmaking. Well, if that's the case, maybe I'm better off feeding unsupplemented food if that proves more sustainable, at least part of the time. And if this is true for me, I imagine it's the case for others as well. Thus the idea of starting a conversation, even knowing I'd get some flames. No problem with that!

I'm not in any way trying to be cruel here. If you don't have time to supplement then there's premade and freeze dried and canned. I see no problem using the combination to fit your lifestyle. I agree with mschauer on the complete whole whole grind.

As far as the Pottenger research he was advocating raw for humans during a time of tuberculosis. He was feeding raw scraps, cod liver oil and milk to cats. Cats don't even need milk. It's an 80 year old flawed study. Yes I believe that raw is great for cats when done right. There are reasons raw should not be fed.

My biggest issue is why risk it.

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While labwork, echo and testing can help ensure a cat is healthy maybe catch an issue early, alert us to genetic issues, it's not a guarantee. It's preventative. Which is why we supplement. It's preventative. my male cat had perfect blood work, nothing showed on xrays then he died. A female i had also had perfect blood work, great xrays and then she died.

I love my cat. She's part of my family. If i don't have time to mix in supplements I either buy pre made, freeze dried or canned. The great thing is many of these are mix and match if needed.

If I seem little bit pushy it's because I don't want some new person thinking supplements are just an inconvenience and skipping it. Someone new thinking whole carcass grind is whole prey. A cat getting a deficiency that is completely preventable.

 

[orange&white]

So far, everyone who has chimed in uses some supplements. We haven't heard from anyone who doesn't supplement, but I know there are some members here at TCS who feed raw PMR and don't supplement. I think the "no need to supplement" crowd has a defensible argument. Fairly often I wonder if the supplements I add are actually "helping" my cats' health. They may not be, but with the research I've done, none of the supplements I add are harmful to the cats' health. So I'm in the "might help, can't hurt" camp.

 

[missmimz]

So far, everyone who has chimed in uses some supplements. We haven't heard from anyone who doesn't supplement, but I know there are some members here at TCS who feed raw PMR and don't supplement. I think the "no need to supplement" crowd has a defensible argument. Fairly often I wonder if the supplements I add are actually "helping" my cats' health. They may not be, but with the research I've done, none of the supplements I add are harmful to the cats' health. So I'm in the "might help, can't hurt" camp.

There's a popular group that encourages PMR feeding without supplementation. They had an independent third part test the diet for deficiencies and it did come up deficient. I've asked some long time raw feeders that used to feed PMR and now feed a supplementation diet about it, and they both told me that it's pretty clear PMR diets are deficient, especially because we can't always know where the meat is coming from so how much vitamins and minerals that meat retains is really unknown, especially with all the factory farming.

 

[orange&white]

You're preaching to the choir, missmimz. I've spent hundreds of hours since 2008 researching cat and dog nutrition...so I add some supplements for the cats. Still, I'm always open-minded enough to hear different opinions from people who choose to feed their pets differently than I do. Unsupplemented raw does work for some folks. If I were to be convinced by someone that PMR is a better way, I'd probably be feeding lots of mice, quail, and rabbit instead of chicken, pork, and beef. Quality and appropriateness of the protein sources can make up for a lack of supplementation.

 

[mschauer]

There's no question that a supplement free diet can be formulated to meet generally accepted nutrient needs of cats. I've formulated such a diet myself. The problem is that few people who feed a supplement free diet have any idea what the nutrient make up of their diet is. They have no idea if whatever guidelines they are following and the way they are following them will result in a nutritionally complete diet.

 

[lisamarie12]

I supplement the whole carcass grinds (mouse, quail) for Mikey except the salt with iodine, those grinds make up about half or less than his diet. Other than a whole prey diet, I don't want to risk any deficiencies.