Thailand Burmese vs American Burmese

[Shiloh7]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone with knowledge regarding the Burmese can help me.

I have actually never purchased a cat or dog through a breeder only worked with rescues but my husband and I decided our next family member will be through a breeder. As I’ve never worked with a breeder before or even owned a purebred cat I am a bit new to all this....

We have decided after thorough research that the Burmese (or Russian blue) fits our lifestyle and what we are looking for in a cat. I am drawn to the Burmese because I am told over and over again that their personalities are very much like dogs. That they love social companionship, love cuddles, intelligent, etc. very much like that of a dog. As someone who has way more experience with dogs than cats, this is my ideal type of cat. (Unless I’m mistaken, please do tell me so)

While looking for a reputable Burmese breeder I came across numerous sites claiming that the “American” Burmese are riddled with disease due to inbreeding, etc and that the “Thailand” Burmese are much healthier and even friendly but do not specifically have some physical traits as the American Burmese. I tried looking for a Thailand Burmese breeder but none pops up except maybe 3. 1 being TICA registered and the other 2 not. This one breeder has a whole page as to why he chooses to cross imported Thailand Burmese back to the American Burmese and he states he does this specifically for health reasons but he also doesn’t have a neuter/spay contract and stages he has kittens “all the time....”. I don’t know that rang a red flag...

Is it true that the American Burmese are riddled with disease or is he just saying that to justify his mix? Is there a difference in personality, as I am drawn to this breed for their personality. He claims that his cross breeds are cat dogs and are very healthy. As someone who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on sick rescues who had special medical needs, health is so very important to me. I also do not want to lose an anima so young to terminal illness anymore, it is so hard to go through that.

Sorry for the long post and thank you for taking your time to read this.

 

[lutece]

Are you located in the US?

Terminology for Burmese can be confusing. In CFA, we have two breeds, "Burmese" (limited color range of just four colors) and "European Burmese" (more colors including red-based colors, slightly different breed standard). In TICA, FIFe, and GCCF, the "Burmese" breed includes the red-based colors.

Historically, certain lines of Burmese in the US were selectively bred for a more extreme short face (brachycephalic head shape) compared to Burmese in other countries. The cats with more extreme type, sometimes called "contemporary" Burmese, were very successful at shows, but unfortunately, some of them turned out to carry a recessive gene known as "Burmese head defect." This gene contributed to brachycephalic head shape when heterozygous (just one copy of the gene), but produced a lethal head defect when homozygous (two copies of the gene).

Today, breeders can do a DNA test for the Burmese head defect to prevent breeding two carriers together, and can gradually eliminate this gene from their lines completely:
Burmese Head Defect | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory
As a pet buyer, I would not be concerned about the Burmese head defect affecting my kitten, because in its homozygous form, these kittens simply do not survive. However, it is an ethical issue for breeders, so a breeder working with lines that have historically had this head defect gene should either be sure that their lines are tested clear, or should have a plan to eliminate the gene eventually. (Also note that the Burmese head defect can also be theoretically carried in other breeds that used the Burmese in their creation, such as the Bombay or Burmilla.)

"American Burmese" is not really a formal designation. It could mean any Burmese lines in the US. I also have heard it used to refer to the Burmese lines with a very short face ("contemporary" Burmese). There are also Burmese lines in the US with a more moderate head shape which used to be called "traditional" Burmese when I started showing cats in the late 1980s. Someone might refer to all of these bloodlines as "American Burmese," or they might just mean the cats from shorter faced bloodlines.

All pedigreed Burmese worldwide have relatively low genetic diversity, compared to other breeds. This is not specific to the "American" Burmese; genetic diversity is also a problem in Burmese in other countries. To raise genetic diversity in this breed, some Burmese breeders have outcrossing programs in which they import cats from Thailand. Sometimes these Thai outcross cats are non-pedigreed cats found on the street, while other cats are imported from Thai breeders who maintain a pedigreed line of Burmese. "Thai Burmese" could refer to either of these types of outcross cats. Other outcross options are also used in some Burmese breeding programs, such as "solid" (sepia) Tonkinese, and sable (sepia) Bombay variants.

Outcrossing is a useful tool for breeders, as the increase in genetic diversity can have a positive effect on the immune system and overall vigor and fertility. In the long term, well-planned outcrossing is important for preservation of the Burmese breed. In the short term, outcross programs can have unpredictable effects, and sometimes an outcross can introduce new problems into a breed (I have seen this happen). Outcrossing is helpful and important in the long term, but not a magic solution that automatically takes away all problems.

As far as individual breeders are concerned, I'm not a Burmese breeder so I can't make specific recommendations... but in general, I would be a little cautious about any breeder that claims all other breeders' cats are "riddled with disease due to inbreeding" and presents their own cats as the only healthy alternative. This breeder might have fine cats, but it's probably worth talking to a broader range of breeders to try to get a balanced perspective on general health in this breed.

Generally the FBRL (Fanciers Breeder Referral List) is a good place to start when looking for breeders, you could try writing to some of these folks:

Search For Breeders | Fanciers Breeder Referral List

www.breedlist.com

Since you are primarily interested in the Burmese temperament, you can also look into the related breeds, such as European Burmese, Burmilla, and Bombay.

 

[Shiloh7]

Oh wow, thank you SO MUCH for taking your time out to explain this to me.

I was a bit confused as to why some Burmese looked a certain way while others did not but now I see it’s because there are two types. I also saw that some of the Thai crosses look more like a Tonkanese but with extremely rare, vivid eye colors. I’ve never seen such bright eyes on a cat before, almost zombie like but here extremely gorgeous. I am guessing that’s due to breeding Thai strays and not so much pedigreed Thai Burmese. Would the Burmese cats who are out crossed to Tonkanese, etc be Burmese-Tonkas rather than a Burmese? (On paper- Not that I need papers I guess since I don’t plan on breeding or showing but just curios)

Thank you so much for the link!! I really, really appreciate it. I have a lot of time and am in no rush so I will be researching a bit more.

 

[Shiloh7]

I am so sorry for the many typos. I am using my phone and it autocorrects incorrectly! Lol, what’s so smart about this smart phone?!

 

[lutece]

Taking your time and researching the breed is great!

Eye color in photographs is not always accurate. Sometimes people intensify or enhance the colors in photographs of their cats. With the point restricted colors (sepia, mink, and colorpoint), a range of colors are possible, depending on coat color:

• Sepia cats like Burmese (cb cb) frequently have gold eyes, but can also have green, yellow, orange or copper eyes.
• Mink cats (cb cs) are supposed to have aqua eyes (blue-green), but can have blue eyes, green eyes, or greenish yellow eyes.
• Colorpointed cats (cs cs) normally have blue eyes, but can sometimes have blue-green eyes, or very pale eyes that appear whitish.

Blue or odd eyes on a non-pointed cat are also possible if the cat has white markings, or has one of the rare "dominant blue eye" genes.

 

[lutece]

Would the Burmese cats who are out crossed to Tonkanese, etc be Burmese-Tonkas rather than a Burmese? (On paper- Not that I need papers I guess since I don’t plan on breeding or showing but just curios)

This will depend on the registry's rules. CFA's outcross policy, for example, currently allows breeders to outcross to any of the following, and register the sepia (cb cb) offspring as Burmese:

• imported Southeast Asian cats that meet specific requirements
• CFA registered Tonkinese, or Tonkinese cats eligible to be registered in CFA
• CFA registered sable (sepia) Bombays that do not carry cinnamon

You can read the CFA rules of registration for Burmese here: https://cfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/burmese-rules.pdf

Other registries will have different policies, but in general, each registry has defined processes for getting outcrosses approved and incorporated into the breed.

 

[Shiloh7]

Ahhh, I see. Are you a breeder or do you show cats? Maybe both? You know a lot about this stuff!

I have been reading about the Tonkinese cats and from what I have read, they’re pretty much everything I love about the Burmese except they can be a bit more demanding/dependent on you than the Burmese?

Aesthetics alone, I actually prefer the Tonkinese or “old school” Siamese looks or are they the Apple head Siamese? The extreme features of the modern Siamese or Burmese I am not really a fan of but aesthetics is really not my priority as I am more interested in temperament and health. Although, if I could have it all.... would love to! Lol.

 

[lutece]

I do breed and show cats, although not Burmese cats.

Tonkinese are great cats, too. As far as personality differences between the breeds, remember that every cat is an individual, and if you are working with a good breeder, they can help to match you with an individual kitten or cat that meets your needs. I expect that some Tonkinese are more laid-back in temperament than others, and if you want a less demanding one, you should be able to find one. Retired adult cats can also be nice because they have settled into their adult personality and might not be as needy as young kittens.

 

[Shiloh7]

Is the cat in your avatar one of your cats? So very pretty.

My husband absolutely loves blue cats and dogs. He really likes the Russian blue, Chartreux, and Korat but I don’t think he knows anything about their personalities?? Haha, he just says how nice they look and he wants one of them.

It’s so hard because pretty much every cat is affectionate, so really hard to choose a cat.

I thank you for all the knowledge and advice. I really appreciate it.