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- #21
We were talking on another thread about not letting cats lose weight too fast. Tangent is definitely succeeding at that goal. 
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Tangent - Raw Food Weight Loss Program
- Thread starter orange&white
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- #22
Sunday weigh-in. Weight gain of 1.5 ounces on average 4.2 ounces of food per day. 
Tangent is at 15.53 pounds.
Tangent did worry me Monday evening by not finishing his meal...which is not right for him. Monday dinner, all meals Tuesday and Wednesday he didn't finish without me drizzling some of the "kitten glop" onto his raw. I didn't record how much "glop" I added, so he did eat a little more than the 4.2 ounces I recorded, and the glop is high calorie.
I also rotated to a beef mix during the week, which was 54% brisket. Brisket is the highest calorie-per-ounce food I buy...so I probably should have cut his portions down.
Anyway, I made a pork and chicken mix we switched to on Friday evening which is lower-cal than the beef. We'll see how he does next Sunday.
Tangent is at 15.53 pounds.
Tangent did worry me Monday evening by not finishing his meal...which is not right for him. Monday dinner, all meals Tuesday and Wednesday he didn't finish without me drizzling some of the "kitten glop" onto his raw. I didn't record how much "glop" I added, so he did eat a little more than the 4.2 ounces I recorded, and the glop is high calorie.
I also rotated to a beef mix during the week, which was 54% brisket. Brisket is the highest calorie-per-ounce food I buy...so I probably should have cut his portions down.
Anyway, I made a pork and chicken mix we switched to on Friday evening which is lower-cal than the beef. We'll see how he does next Sunday.
Maybe if you have him on a weight loss forumula but nothing is happening a test of hypothyroidism might be needed.
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- #24
He's not on a low-cal formula, just the homemade raw diet. He had a too-skinny brother, Cosine, who crossed the bridge in September. I had Cosine tested for hyperthyroid problems several times, but never had Tanget tested for hypothyroid. Having brother/littermates, both with opposite weight problems, does seem like one of them got "too much" and one got "too little" of something thyroid-related in the womb during development. ...but Cosine always tested negative for medical problems and was sort written off as neurological "eating disorder and separation anxiety".
After Cosine passed, I took away the kibble which had "blown up" Tangent to 16.5 pounds, and I had him down on canned-only diet to 14 pounds at just under 200 calories per day. He gained again when I switched from canned to raw.
I'm trying to analyze the calorie count in my raw mixes but every mix is a little different. I think some of my mixes, like the brisket I fed most of last week maybe 50-60 calories per ounce, which would make 4.2 ounces too much for weight loss.
Also, when I plate up the food, I spoon out the chunks and that is what I weigh, then I drizzle some of the "supplement soup" out of the tub, which I don't weigh. The supplement slurry, being mostly 0-calorie water hasn't been counted, but maybe I should count that.
After Cosine passed, I took away the kibble which had "blown up" Tangent to 16.5 pounds, and I had him down on canned-only diet to 14 pounds at just under 200 calories per day. He gained again when I switched from canned to raw.
I'm trying to analyze the calorie count in my raw mixes but every mix is a little different. I think some of my mixes, like the brisket I fed most of last week maybe 50-60 calories per ounce, which would make 4.2 ounces too much for weight loss.
Also, when I plate up the food, I spoon out the chunks and that is what I weigh, then I drizzle some of the "supplement soup" out of the tub, which I don't weigh. The supplement slurry, being mostly 0-calorie water hasn't been counted, but maybe I should count that.
It would be great to have an actual calculator for all the meats and mixes. I've seen a couple but the chicken seems the main one. Possibly a diet calculator something fitness (can't remember the name). You could insert the brisket and get a better idea.
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- #26
I just haven't taken time to add the calorie fomulas to the recipe calculator I put together. One week, I may have 32oz brisket, 20oz chicken thigh, (etc. - hearts, kidneys, yolks, liver, bone). The next week, I may have 20oz pork, 28oz mix of whole chicken parts, (+ other etc.)
DATA IS PER OUNCE
Calories Fat Fat %
Pork blade roast 52 31 59.62%
Pork sirloin chop 48 23 47.92%
Pork liver 38 9 23.68%
Pork kidney 28 8 28.57%
Beef roast 68 45 66.18%
Beef brisket 70 48 68.57%
Beef chuck, shoulder, 0” trim 46 23 50.00%
Beef liver 38 9 23.68%
Beef kidney 29 8 27.59%
Chicken Thigh w/Skin 59 39 66.10%
Chicken Thigh No Skin 49 14 28.57%
Chicken Breast w/Skin 48 23 47.92%
Chicken Breast No Skin 31 3 9.68%
Chicken Liver 32 12 37.50%
Chicken Hearts 43 24 55.81%
Chicken Gizzards 26 5 19.23%
Ground Turkey 68 50 73.53%
Egg Large
Whole 71 45 63.38%
Yolk 54 41 75.93%
White 16 1 6.25%
DATA IS PER OUNCE
Calories Fat Fat %
Pork blade roast 52 31 59.62%
Pork sirloin chop 48 23 47.92%
Pork liver 38 9 23.68%
Pork kidney 28 8 28.57%
Beef roast 68 45 66.18%
Beef brisket 70 48 68.57%
Beef chuck, shoulder, 0” trim 46 23 50.00%
Beef liver 38 9 23.68%
Beef kidney 29 8 27.59%
Chicken Thigh w/Skin 59 39 66.10%
Chicken Thigh No Skin 49 14 28.57%
Chicken Breast w/Skin 48 23 47.92%
Chicken Breast No Skin 31 3 9.68%
Chicken Liver 32 12 37.50%
Chicken Hearts 43 24 55.81%
Chicken Gizzards 26 5 19.23%
Ground Turkey 68 50 73.53%
Egg Large
Whole 71 45 63.38%
Yolk 54 41 75.93%
White 16 1 6.25%
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
When I was pulling the calorie data, this surprised me: Chicken Hearts (per ounce) 43 - calories, 24 - from fat, 55.81% fat content.
Hearts look very lean. It almost makes me think there are errors and typos in the US Nutritional database.
Hearts look very lean. It almost makes me think there are errors and typos in the US Nutritional database.
I thought hearts were lean. I know I've seen this brand. Freeze Dried/Dehydrated Raw Cat & Dog Treats | All Natural | Human Grade | Turkey Hearts The heart should be low in fat.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) - 81%
Crude Fat (min) - 8%
Crude Fiber (max) - 1%
Moisture (max) - 7%
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) - 81%
Crude Fat (min) - 8%
Crude Fiber (max) - 1%
Moisture (max) - 7%
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- #29
Yes, I'd hate to question authority (who me? question data??? 
), like the US government nutrition database, but there are barely any little fat caps on the tops of chicken hearts. Heart is one of the hardest working muscles in the body. Anyway, I left the data "as is" for what it's worth.
), like the US government nutrition database, but there are barely any little fat caps on the tops of chicken hearts. Heart is one of the hardest working muscles in the body. Anyway, I left the data "as is" for what it's worth.
I'm seeing
Crude Protein: 64% min
Crude fat: 26% Min
Crude fiber: 1% max
Moisture: 6% max
Maybe try turkey hearts.
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- #31
I believe you are looking at grams of protein and fat on a dry matter (DM) basis, and I am collecting data on energy density - calories from protein and calories from fat.
Raw Turkey Heart from the same data source: (USDA SR-21)
Turkey Heart 32 calories, 12 calories from fat, 37.50% calories from fat
Compares very favorably to the data on chicken hearts, which does make sense (turkey hearts are much larger so the fat cap is relatively smaller). Still...nearly 40% fat calories.
I only added meats I can easily source locally...so I didn't have turkey hearts on the list. Can't get them anymore. When I was in a food co-op, I used to get 40lb cases of turkey hearts, cheap!
Raw Turkey Heart from the same data source: (USDA SR-21)
Turkey Heart 32 calories, 12 calories from fat, 37.50% calories from fat
Compares very favorably to the data on chicken hearts, which does make sense (turkey hearts are much larger so the fat cap is relatively smaller). Still...nearly 40% fat calories.
I only added meats I can easily source locally...so I didn't have turkey hearts on the list. Can't get them anymore. When I was in a food co-op, I used to get 40lb cases of turkey hearts, cheap!
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- #32
Tangent weigh-in today: 15.375 lbs for a loss of 2.5 ounces. He ate an avg of 3.86 ounces of food per day on a pork and chicken mix.
He seems to be off his appetite a little, which is unusual for him. When I brought home a new kitten home in February, he went off food for four days, two and a half of which I syringed canned food and egg yolks into him for 200 calories a day. I did bring in a little feral kitten two and a half weeks ago, so maybe that's why Tangent hasn't felt much like eating. I'm keeping an eye on him, but fed him some canned food last week when he was extremely picky.
This week I have an all-chicken mix to feed. Plan is for 4 ounces per day.
He seems to be off his appetite a little, which is unusual for him. When I brought home a new kitten home in February, he went off food for four days, two and a half of which I syringed canned food and egg yolks into him for 200 calories a day. I did bring in a little feral kitten two and a half weeks ago, so maybe that's why Tangent hasn't felt much like eating. I'm keeping an eye on him, but fed him some canned food last week when he was extremely picky.
This week I have an all-chicken mix to feed. Plan is for 4 ounces per day.
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- #33
Last Sunday, Tangent weighed 15.31 pounds, down one ounce (food amount uncertain).
Today he weighed 15.25 pounds, down another ounce on 4.19 ounces of food per day.
We had a weird period - week before last - where Tangent got constipated for the first time ever, and wasn't eating normally. I tracked an average of 3.25 ounces of raw food per day, but since he was being picky, I opened a can of cat food and was giving him extra "ice-cube" canned food chunks through the week without tracking how many I gave him.
Last week, he has eaten (and pooped) normally, and is back to the ravenous cat who is sure I'm starving him to death instead of just trying to get him to drop a pound or two.
Steady as she goes after a bit of choppy waters.
Today he weighed 15.25 pounds, down another ounce on 4.19 ounces of food per day.
We had a weird period - week before last - where Tangent got constipated for the first time ever, and wasn't eating normally. I tracked an average of 3.25 ounces of raw food per day, but since he was being picky, I opened a can of cat food and was giving him extra "ice-cube" canned food chunks through the week without tracking how many I gave him.
Last week, he has eaten (and pooped) normally, and is back to the ravenous cat who is sure I'm starving him to death instead of just trying to get him to drop a pound or two.
Steady as she goes after a bit of choppy waters.
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- #34
Tangent weighed in at 15.25 today, no change from last week, on average 4 ounces of food (less than last week).
I finished my calorie calculator yesterday, so I can count total calories, fat calories, and calculate the weight of protein and fat in grams per ounce.
The "normal" mix I plan to make today is 45.8 calories per ounce and 38.6% calories from protein, 59.5% from fat. Protein grams per ounce 4.4; fat grams per ounce 3.0....or 59% protein by weight.
At 4 ounces of food per day, I am concerned that Tangent is not getting enough grams of protein to maintain his muscle mass even though he seems fine so far. I read several sources that state that cats require 2.38 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day for optimal muscle maintenance. That puts Tangent (at an ideal weight) needing around 28-30 grams every day, but the food only supplies 17-18. So that's a rock and a hard place.
I'm going to make a separate 80/10/10 batch of food with boneless, skinless chicken breasts, bone and organs. I'll be leaving out the egg yolks, adding extra taurine, and using the same ratio of other normal supplements.
Tangent is going to get 10 ounces of the "diet mix" and 20 ounces of the "normal mix" this week. That combination will be over 50% protein calories and up his protein grams to 20 per day while allowing him to eat more food and decrease his calories.
Sounds like a winner...in theory.
I finished my calorie calculator yesterday, so I can count total calories, fat calories, and calculate the weight of protein and fat in grams per ounce.
The "normal" mix I plan to make today is 45.8 calories per ounce and 38.6% calories from protein, 59.5% from fat.
Protein grams per ounce 4.4; fat grams per ounce 3.0....or 59% protein by weight.At 4 ounces of food per day, I am concerned that Tangent is not getting enough grams of protein to maintain his muscle mass even though he seems fine so far. I read several sources that state that cats require 2.38 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day for optimal muscle maintenance. That puts Tangent (at an ideal weight) needing around 28-30 grams every day, but the food only supplies 17-18. So that's a rock and a hard place.
I'm going to make a separate 80/10/10 batch of food with boneless, skinless chicken breasts, bone and organs. I'll be leaving out the egg yolks, adding extra taurine, and using the same ratio of other normal supplements.
Tangent is going to get 10 ounces of the "diet mix" and 20 ounces of the "normal mix" this week. That combination will be over 50% protein calories and up his protein grams to 20 per day while allowing him to eat more food and decrease his calories.
Sounds like a winner...in theory.
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- #35
Well, hmmm. I fed Tangent 33% of the low-cal mix and 66% higher calorie pork/chicken mix last week. On Friday he "looked" skinnier, and last night he jumped in my lap and I gave his ribs a good rub and thought, "Oh! That's what your ribs actually feel like!"
So this morning I rewarded him by seeing how much he would actually eat in 30 minutes, before he self-regulated and stopped himself. I put 5 ounces of food on his plate...and he ate it all.
For months now, his 3 meals a day have been between 1-2 ounces each, so I "guessed" he would stop between 2-4 ounces. 
I wonder how much he would eat if I had put a pound of food down. (...not testing that one.) I didn't do today's weigh-in until after he had chowed down on high-calorie food.
Today's weigh-in: Tangent weighs 15.5 pounds, a gain of 4 ounces from last week, on increased portion of 4.2 ounces per day (up .2 from last week). Overall calories were lower: 166 avg per day. This was the first week to calculate calories in mixes, but I think that would compare to 184 calories/day the previous week.
I weighed him about an hour after he ate over 1/4 pound of food and didn't pee or poop. I'm going to re-weigh him next time he makes a deposit in his box.
To make up for this morning's binge test, I'm going to make more low-cal chicken breast mix plus a medium-cal lean pork loin mix for the rest of this week. Will try and keep his calories the same, but may reevaluate after a second weigh-in.
So this morning I rewarded him by seeing how much he would actually eat in 30 minutes, before he self-regulated and stopped himself. I put 5 ounces of food on his plate...and he ate it all.
For months now, his 3 meals a day have been between 1-2 ounces each, so I "guessed" he would stop between 2-4 ounces. I wonder how much he would eat if I had put a pound of food down. (...not testing that one.) I didn't do today's weigh-in until after he had chowed down on high-calorie food.Today's weigh-in: Tangent weighs 15.5 pounds, a gain of 4 ounces from last week, on increased portion of 4.2 ounces per day (up .2 from last week). Overall calories were lower: 166 avg per day. This was the first week to calculate calories in mixes, but I think that would compare to 184 calories/day the previous week.
I weighed him about an hour after he ate over 1/4 pound of food and didn't pee or poop. I'm going to re-weigh him next time he makes a deposit in his box.
To make up for this morning's binge test, I'm going to make more low-cal chicken breast mix plus a medium-cal lean pork loin mix for the rest of this week. Will try and keep his calories the same, but may reevaluate after a second weigh-in.
How can he eat that much in a sitting? ermahgerd. Hollow leg.
I would end up yanking kitties for the scale about during naptime, about 2 ish in the afternoon.
Dr Pierson lets her raw fed clowder free feed. I really do not want to know what my bubba would do if I tried your experiment.
Hope Tangent gets a nice food coma in.
I would end up yanking kitties for the scale about during naptime, about 2 ish in the afternoon.
Dr Pierson lets her raw fed clowder free feed. I really do not want to know what my bubba would do if I tried your experiment.
Hope Tangent gets a nice food coma in.
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- #37
Tangent, his brother Cosine and the senior cat at the time, Einstein all free-fed on raw for 5 years between 2008-2013 without any weight problems. They ate off a one shared dinner plate twice a day, and I'm sure they didn't each eat the same amount, but they self-regulated. Same recipe formulas too.
I suppose that rewarding a cat on a diet with a pile of food is like rewarding a gambling addict with a free trip to Las Vegas.
Yeah, he's passed out in the office recliner behind me....dreaming about that big mountain of food I gave him...which he will now expect at every meal.
I suppose that rewarding a cat on a diet with a pile of food is like rewarding a gambling addict with a free trip to Las Vegas.
Yeah, he's passed out in the office recliner behind me....dreaming about that big mountain of food I gave him...which he will now expect at every meal.
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- #38
Since Tangent's Sunday weigh-in was right after his experimental "food binge", I reweighed him today after I saw poop in his box.
He weighed 15.2 lbs (243 ounces), down 1 ounce from the previous "normal" Sunday...and down 5 ounces from yesterday's weigh-in. Guess that 5 ounce all-you-can-eat breakfast didn't stick to his ribs after all.
This is his lowest weight since I bought the accurate scale in March. Still, seems he should be losing faster than this over a 10 month period since we started dieting, or even 4 months since getting the good scale.
He weighed 15.2 lbs (243 ounces), down 1 ounce from the previous "normal" Sunday...and down 5 ounces from yesterday's weigh-in. Guess that 5 ounce all-you-can-eat breakfast didn't stick to his ribs after all.
This is his lowest weight since I bought the accurate scale in March. Still, seems he should be losing faster than this over a 10 month period since we started dieting, or even 4 months since getting the good scale.
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- #39
Tangent's digital weight kept flipping between 243 and 243.5 and finally settled on the latter...so Tangent gained 1/2 an ounce last week (15.2 pounds). I pretty severely restricted his calories Monday through Saturday after the "pig out" day last Sunday. I averaged his calories to 1177 calories for the week, or 168 calories per day, approximately the same as the previous week.
With the lower calorie mixes, he did get to eat more volume of food: 4.6 avg ounces per day, versus 4.2 in previous week.
So...another week with not much to write home about.
With the lower calorie mixes, he did get to eat more volume of food: 4.6 avg ounces per day, versus 4.2 in previous week.
So...another week with not much to write home about.
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- #40
Tangent weighed in at 243 today, down .5 ounces. I'm pretty encouraged about his new lower-calorie/fat food mixes. He was able to eat 4.87 ounces, average per day and ate 2% of his body weight for the first time in weeks. Even with eating more food, his calories for the week decreased to 160/day thanks to more protein, less fat.
Also, I weighed him mid-week Thursday evening after he pooped. He weighed 241.5 ounces, a little bit less than today, and a new record low. He has not pooped since overnight Fri/Sat, so today's weigh-in was "with poop inside" (), so I believe we are generally heading the right direction again.
He also got a "pig out" reward day yesterday, but with ultra-low cal boneless/skinless chicken breast mix. I'm combining low-fat mixes with the intermittent dieting strategy I had read about, where he goes on calorie restriction for a period, following by a more normal food intake for a period.
Also, I weighed him mid-week Thursday evening after he pooped. He weighed 241.5 ounces, a little bit less than today, and a new record low. He has not pooped since overnight Fri/Sat, so today's weigh-in was "with poop inside" (
), so I believe we are generally heading the right direction again.He also got a "pig out" reward day yesterday, but with ultra-low cal boneless/skinless chicken breast mix. I'm combining low-fat mixes with the intermittent dieting strategy I had read about, where he goes on calorie restriction for a period, following by a more normal food intake for a period.
