Sweet chonker resident cat escalating play to agression new kitten

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
Hello all,

I am new to this forum, i browsed a bit around different websites and enjoyed your community.
After having read, watched, countless of articles, videos dealign with cat introduction et play-agression, my wife and I still have trouble. So here is the story.

My wife and I live in a big appartment, plenty of room for cats to run, sleep, hide.
We have a 2 1/2 y.o male/neutered Birman cat. Very healthy, a bit lazy but extremely social with humans (he always greets all, even strangers).
However, we noticed he gets bored and lonely. Even though he rarely is a long day alone, we thought it would do him good to have a companion.
So we recently got a new female 3 and 1/2 month old kitten Birman from the same breeder.

We introduced them as follow:

1. We put her in our office as safe room, without him seeing her. She has a small cat tree, litter, toys and comfortable basket
2. After few days, noticing no agression or fear from both cats and having done sites swaps 2-3 times so they get used to smell, we opened our office with a small barrier so they can see, but not touch, each other. Our cat was very curious and wanted to go see her. She was also very eager to meet him and they regularly tried to touch each other through the gate.
3. As it seem to go smoothly and we sensed they both started to get frustrated to be seperated, without any sign of agression, we started to let them see each other for short period of time (two times 5-10 mn the first day, 3x 15mn the second day, and much longer the third day).

The Positive:
Neither have changed their attitude too much. They are invested in each other.
Our resident car grooms (sometimes a bit too agressively) our kitten
In quite hours, they can nap in same room
They even have eaten in same room sometimes (but that is rare as our cat is a picky eater while our kitten devours her food)

The Negative:

. As he is quite laid back, he likes his quite times and she can get obsessed with him and want to be with him. That annoys him (but predictable i guess ?)
. But what really worries us, is that our cat gets overly excited and dominates her more and more until getting on top of her - biting while she tries to escape (he weighs 5kg, she 600gr) hissing and growling. If she manage to get out of his grip, she runs to hide but he sprints behind (hunting mode).
We try to wear them out seperately, to seperate them with treats or feathers. But he doesn't get distracted. So we started seperate them more again and play with them seperately until they are chill and sleepy (at that point, we open the doors again).

This means we do not dare let them alone, and leave her in her saferoom at night. We do not see much progress. Granted, it only has been a few days but it is exhausting.

Do you have any tips on how we can manage our cats excessively dominating her by pinning her down and biting her while she panicks ?

Many thanks for taking the time to read and even more to answer :)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
While browsing, I came to similar situations.

The given tips are:
There seem to be a consensus that it is not unusual (we are not experience :))
Do not encourage excessive grooming as it is more about dominance than anything else

Some suggested to let her free (but supervised) to avoid the "christmas effect" but other also suggested to keep her more isolated until she has gotten bigger (that might take a while though)...

Some thoughts on that ? or other suggesitons :) ?

 

Kris107

Cat mom, cat foster mom
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Mar 6, 2023
Messages
1,063
Purraise
2,212
Glad you searched the forums! This place already has a ton of knowledge in the posts. I think the ideas you found are good ones. I agree about letting them groom too much. Some cats can groom and it never "flips" into something else. But often times grooming can be overstimulating and then someone bites someone and then it's ON. I will sometimes allow my cats a few licks and then kind of move them apart. Consider that if that tends to be a trigger. I have a cat who is prone to getting overstimulated and when he does, he can get a bit wild and a bit unrelenting with his hunt mode. Sometimes I'll stand between him and the other cat and give him audio scold. If needed, sometimes I'll give HIM a time out in another room until he can gather his senses again. This is definitely a fairly common problem, so don't worry! As your girl gets bigger hopefully she'll learn to fight back a bit!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
Glad you searched the forums! This place already has a ton of knowledge in the posts. I think the ideas you found are good ones. I agree about letting them groom too much. Some cats can groom and it never "flips" into something else. But often times grooming can be overstimulating and then someone bites someone and then it's ON. I will sometimes allow my cats a few licks and then kind of move them apart. Consider that if that tends to be a trigger. I have a cat who is prone to getting overstimulated and when he does, he can get a bit wild and a bit unrelenting with his hunt mode. Sometimes I'll stand between him and the other cat and give him audio scold. If needed, sometimes I'll give HIM a time out in another room until he can gather his senses again. This is definitely a fairly common problem, so don't worry! As your girl gets bigger hopefully she'll learn to fight back a bit!
Thanks for the quick reply.
I think letting few licks but move them apart rather quickly is what we will consider. It isn't easy because he is very invested and gets frustrated when we do so. He also is frustrated when we isolate her in her safe room. He goes to the does and tries to open it (she doesn't even mind and just wants out as well).

Would you thus consider letting them be, and intervene every time it gets to domination game (tiring, because we're on edge non-stop when they are not napping) or keep her apart most of the time, which frustrates our cat who wants in and her who wants out ?
 

Hellenww

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
1,104
Purraise
1,629
Location
South Jersey, USA
Congratulations on your new baby! That size diference would make me nervous also. I'd also separate them when I couldn't supervise and I'm in the avoid "Christmas Morning" camp.

Get a few cardboard boxes and cut holes big enough for baby but too small for adult. She will have safe places to run to and still be able to play pattycake through the holes. If she comes back out quickly it means she's not being hurt. Some cats make a lot of noise when playing with outer cats, so your adult might not be as upset as he sounds.

At her age she hasn't completely learned to keep her nails in when she plays. He will teach her proper cat manners and maybe hiss when hit with an accidental nail.

They are learning each others limits and play style. Keep them together as much as you can handle. Close the door between them when you need to. It won't do anybody good if you're stressed out. You're doing everything right. There is no perfect and we're all glad to listen and help.

They are already getting along great and it will get even better as she gets bigger.
 

Kris107

Cat mom, cat foster mom
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Mar 6, 2023
Messages
1,063
Purraise
2,212
I like Hellenww Hellenww 's idea about a box with a smaller hidey hole. That'll at least work while she's a lot smaller. But I also agree that it's the time to learn manners and boundaries - and it sounds like more on the older cat's side. I'd keep them out together whenever you are around to intervene so you can monitor. Try to intervene BEFORE older cat gets too wild. Are you able to see when he's getting too worked up?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
Congratulations on your new baby! That size diference would make me nervous also. I'd also separate them when I couldn't supervise and I'm in the avoid "Christmas Morning" camp.

Get a few cardboard boxes and cut holes big enough for baby but too small for adult. She will have safe places to run to and still be able to play pattycake through the holes. If she comes back out quickly it means she's not being hurt. Some cats make a lot of noise when playing with outer cats, so your adult might not be as upset as he sounds.

At her age she hasn't completely learned to keep her nails in when she plays. He will teach her proper cat manners and maybe hiss when hit with an accidental nail.

They are learning each others limits and play style. Keep them together as much as you can handle. Close the door between them when you need to. It won't do anybody good if you're stressed out. You're doing everything right. There is no perfect and we're all glad to listen and help.

They are already getting along great and it will get even better as she gets bigger.
We will let them together as much as possible without separating. What has worked ok today was to get a towel and just (gently) disturb him with it when he is getting too rough. He is not the one hissing, he is quite the “silent killer”. She is the one hissing and growling when getting overwhelmed and trying to escape.

I like Hellenww Hellenww 's idea about a box with a smaller hidey hole. That'll at least work while she's a lot smaller. But I also agree that it's the time to learn manners and boundaries - and it sounds like more on the older cat's side. I'd keep them out together whenever you are around to intervene so you can monitor. Try to intervene BEFORE older cat gets too wild. Are you able to see when he's getting too worked up?
Nice idea, we'll work on that box soon!
I think we really need to get over the adrenaline of her hissing/screaming. We asked the breeder the same question, and she said just let them be. Let her learn that she is dominated and needs to learn the house rules. He knows she is a kitten and is unlikely to really hurt her.

Here are some pictures of the two terrors :-)
 

Attachments

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
Updates:

There are some good signs. We have established a sort of routine where they both sleep (or at least relax) during the night. We haven't had any issues. It is usually end afternoon, and late evening, that they can get rough. We try to mitigate by playing A.LOT. during these hours. They are not buddies, and we know it is OK. I think our older cat is trying to control his frustration, while our kitten constantly seeks his attention. It often reaches the point where he gets enough of her and boils into aggression where he dominates her.
We know it is part of the process, but we cannot let him be too rough as she panics/squeals and growls. Last time, we found some fur in her (not his!) mouth - no wound.

This means we do not dare let them alone during these hours. Not a problem for their night shenanigans, it will get trickier when my wife will have to go back to work (in 2 weeks). Should we separate them when nobodies home ? Or try to let them be ... ?
 

Hellenww

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
1,104
Purraise
1,629
Location
South Jersey, USA
It often reaches the point where he gets enough of her and boils into aggression where he dominates her.
If she is going rigth back to playing after this then she's not being hurt. Just annoyed and it should be safe to leave them together all day. With your wife going to work they will have each other for company. At 4mt she's like a 6yr kid. He will teach her manners and limits, expect her to complain.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10

TaaviXuli

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Jul 15, 2024
Messages
6
Purraise
0
Hi all,

I have already posted about the introduction phase and got many good tips.

For context, a month ago we got a new female kitten (now 4 and 1/2). We did stepwise introduction with safe room - place swap - visual encounter and now physical. We thought after about 3 days that visual encounter was fine, and after 5 days physical encounter. Maybe we went a bit fast for the last step ? We thought our older cat was curious, not afraid or angry.
Anyway, it is an ongoing process and, although he is not particularly aggressive towards her, he clearly hasn't warmed up a month after her arrival. He leaves almost every time she approaches him. She seeks his company, he doesn't. We know it is normal at that phase, but it is a bit sad because he is also mad at us; Purrs much less, often seeks solitude and eats less (we went to the vet, he said it's all good - only stress). We do try to play with him, with and without her presence, but he is a lazy dude. We also try positive reinforcement by giving treats every time there is a good, or at least not bad, interaction.
But all in all, what seems to annoy him beyond oblivion, is when she goes in his favourite spots: his cat tree and our bed.

This brings me here. We let her out during the night, because they do seem to have found rhythm and leave each other alone during the night (we haven't heard or seen any dispute or battle the whole night through).
Initially, our older cat (almost 3 years old) slept almost every night at my wife's feet. He is quite big and actively seek contact with her. He truly is a Mama's boy. However, our new kitten also seeks comfort and joins us in bed for the entire night. She doesn't take his exact spot, she sleeps at the other side, near our faces. But it doesn't matter. This is too much, he leaves (or just does not join) and pouts. It is especially visible when we wake up as he ignores us, when before her joining us he greeted us and wanted pets).
During the day, we do not allow her on the bed (bed is not to play). But it can happen that she finds a way to jump in bed. He then almost always tries to kick her out, and gets rough.

We never let her at the top sport of the cat tree (his favourite nap place). But she has managed here and there to get there. Now, he rarely naps there...

We are torn because 1) we cannot leave her out and close our bedroom door as our older cat hates closed doors, likes to wander around (also, his litter is in the bathroom) and our kitten isn't too different in that aspect. 2) we did put her in her safe room at night until recently, but she wasn't too happy about it. Also, as they do not fight during the night, and locking her out hasn't really help his jealousy, we thought to let him be annoyed and let her come at us as he just needs to be more accepting (plus, my wife and I are softies)...

What would be your solution ? We think investing in a small cat tree just as high as our bed with the hope that one of them can invest it while the other comes in bed. But we already but a huge new cat tree for the living room as the kitten arrived, and none of them goes in there...
 

Kris107

Cat mom, cat foster mom
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Mar 6, 2023
Messages
1,063
Purraise
2,212
I think you're doing the right things. Just remember, getting a new cat will likely change the "family"/household dynamics. Unfortunately, that might mean your boy sleeps in different spaces. You never know though, after some more time, he may come back. Cats can be fickle. Mine act like siblings and will sit in top of each other to make the other move from the spot they want. It can get ridiculous. I'm home a lot so some days I feel like the house sheriff, always correcting them. The youngster will catch on, but for a lot, it'll be closer to the 1 year mark before they settle and aren't as pesky. Keep the faith.
 
Top