Suddenly Mounting Other Cat?

[Animal Freak]

So my seven year old, neutered, male Napoleon has sudden deciding he's going to mount my four year old, spayed, female moggie. I'm assuming it's a dominance thing since they're both neutered. I haven't seen him bite her scruff or anything, but I haven't seen him display this behavior since before he was neutered. I don't think he was fixed late either. It was put off briefly when we first got him and our other Napoleon (who's a week older) because we considered breeding them once. That, of course, was when we thought the other cat was a female(good thing we decided not!). But I don't think we waited for long at all. A few weeks, maybe a month or so and we got them as kittens. Ember's spay wasn't put off at all. She was spayed as soon as possible and we've had her since her birth.

As it is, I can only think of once that I saw Ash(cat mounting Ember) mount Frost(other male Napoleon). It was kind of funny because Frost was laying on his back like he tends to do. But in all four years of having Ember, I've never once seen him even try to mount her. Until about two weeks ago. Ember was laying on top of the cat tree. I don't know when he got up there with her or anything because I didn't see it. I just saw her tail lashing rapidly and thought she was watching a bird. Then I saw his tail up there as well, but didn't think much of it because they do sometimes lay together up there. But when I got up I saw he was on top of her, but it only lasted a moment. Then he just flopped down on her and started grooming himself. She didn't try to get away until he did that. Then she got out from under him and took off.

Well, the other day Ember was in the dining room meowing like she tends to do. She does this quite frequently and will usually talk to me with her sad, broken sounding meow, but refuse to come to me for petting. She wants me to get up. I was mostly ignoring her(she's taken to doing this several time a day), but then I hear Ash started meowing with her and it wasn't his usual meow. It was short and rapid, more like hers. I looked over to see him with one leg over her, but she got away and ran to my room. He followed her into the hall, but when I got over there he was sitting in the hall and she came out of my room. I also suspect he did it again that night because she was meowing(again) and I heard his short, rapid meows too. Of course, I was trying to sleep so everything was dark and I didn't have my glasses on. By the time I was going to go check on them, Ember was walking into my room.

Today there was a similar situation though. Ember, once again, was meowing in the dining room. He joined her and ran over to her, she ran into the living room. He couldn't get on her, but was right behind her. She just flopped down when she reached the living room though and kind of acted like she wanted to play. He just gave her a weird look and sat down. Then she suddenly took off and started batting a little ball around.

There was a time that they were playing too, but I wasn't sure if he had started trying to mount her or if he actually wanted to play. He went up behind her, but she moved before he could do anything and they've both learned to bite inappropriate places

during play ​

from Frost. But she flopped down on her back and played with him though she seemed very squirmy. I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain. She might have been trying to get his attention because he didn't seem all that interested in playing.

Anyway, I'm mostly posting out of curiosity. Is it normal for a cat to suddenly start mounting after over six years of nothing? And almost four years of living with this female cat? What would cause it? He's never been a very dominant cat. Both of the boys are rather laid back and it doesn't take much for him to start cowering in a corner. We have had issues between him and Ember because Ember is very sensitive and tends to lash out at him when she's uncomfortable with something(new smells, stress, etc.). Due to this, he often loses confidence and I have to work on building his (and hers) back up.

Also, what should I do about it, if anything? The first time was weird, but not particularly concerning. She wasn't trying to get away from him and the only sign of irritation was her lashing tail(which she still could have been watching a bird). And I thought it might be good if he asserted some dominance. I thought maybe she wouldn't lash out at him so much. But the past couple of times she's tried to get away and I don't like that. Admittedly, I am a bit overprotective over her. She tends to be a skittish, easily frightened cat who runs off growling when she hears people outside. She's a lot better now than she was, but I'd hate to go back to how things were. Because of that, I'm always trying to avoid everything that could possibly make her feel insecure or lose confidence.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

It may be dominance. Has anything at all changed in the household? Even moved furniture can sometimes upset long-established routines and totally set the pecking order on its ear. Not always, but it can happen.

It does sound a lot like mating behavior, though, doesn't it? Which has me a bit bumfuzzled, since he's been neutered for years. If worse comes to worst, you can have your vet do a horome panel on him, just to make sure that there was no testicular tissue left behind (pretty rare), and on her to makes sure there was no ovarian tissue left behind (far more common). That could trigger the behavior, but I think its a real longshot.

Other than that, my brain just skitters to "silly-time" and wants to chalk it up to a mid-life crisis!

 

[Animal Freak]

It may be dominance. Has anything at all changed in the household? Even moved furniture can sometimes upset long-established routines and totally set the pecking order on its ear. Not always, but it can happen.

It does sound a lot like mating behavior, though, doesn't it? Which has me a bit bumfuzzled, since he's been neutered for years. If worse comes to worst, you can have your vet do a horome panel on him, just to make sure that there was no testicular tissue left behind (pretty rare), and on her to makes sure there was no ovarian tissue left behind (far more common). That could trigger the behavior, but I think its a real longshot.

Other than that, my brain just skitters to "silly-time" and wants to chalk it up to a mid-life crisis!

Not that I can think of. Honestly, we just came out of a real tough time. There was quite a bit of stress going on in the house for a few weeks and Ember started lashing out at Ash. She'd being totally fine with him one moment, even laying on the cat tree with him, and then attacking him not twenty minutes later. He never fights back. Instead he runs to one of the cat trees and hides in the box. She's such a klutz it takes her several tries to get to him and by then we can normally break it up, so no real fights and no injuries, but he does lose confidence pretty quick. By the time the stress was down, he had become a target so it went on for another couple of weeks. They just seemed to have made peace about two weeks ago though. Which pretty much lines up with when he began mounting her. He did this two weeks ago on Friday and we also took him to the vet to treat a UTI the same day. I had actually considered bringing it up to the vet, but wasn't really concerned about it then. Now I wish I had.

I can't think of any changes though. We got them on a different food, but we're already over half way through our second 24 pack of 3oz. cans so it's not like it's all that new any more. They seem to really like it too.

I'll definite keep in mind that we can have a hormone panel done. I'd rather avoid it, but we'll see I guess. It doesn't seem like it particularly bothers her, but I worry it might eventually. It's bad enough our other male cat has taken up hissing at her randomly and we never could figure out why that started.

I guess for now I'll hope they're both fine and he'll give it up eventually. Thanks for your reply though. At least I'm not the only one a bit confused by this sudden change in behavior.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Stress in the house = stress in the cats. They are little energy sponges, and pick up on things in a heart beat. This very well may be a re-defining of social positions in the house now that things have calmed down again. Hand in there.

Quick aside...cats are such good barometers of energy that I can often tell I'm tense FIRST because Hekitty starts acting skittery. I do some deep breathing and meditation, and she calms down. This happens before I'm consciously aware of my own tension. She's like a living, purring biofeedback machine!

 

[Animal Freak]

Stress in the house = stress in the cats. They are little energy sponges, and pick up on things in a heart beat. This very well may be a re-defining of social positions in the house now that things have calmed down again. Hand in there.

Quick aside...cats are such good barometers of energy that I can often tell I'm tense FIRST because Hekitty starts acting skittery. I do some deep breathing and meditation, and she calms down. This happens before I'm consciously aware of my own tension. She's like a living, purring biofeedback machine!

I guess that makes sense. I know they're sensitive, but I guess I didn't expect it to still be affecting them or affecting them in this manner. They don't act any different when someone is stressed unless it's a lot and for an extended period of time. Even then, it's usually only Ember who acts differently. Which is a good thing because I stress easily. The boys are just so laidback it takes a lot to faze them. But I didn't consider this all going back to that. I hope that's all it is and they'll get over it. I don't mind Ash being the dominant cat, but I don't want him stressing Ember over it either.

 

[vyger]

Residual medications that someone in your house is taking might trigger the problem. That is the simplest way I can think of to say that. Some medications and even "food supplements" contain testosterone and estrogen also. Birth control pills are causing a lot of environmental oddities that they are now researching. The extra hormones get flushed down the sewer and don't degrade in the sewage treatment process and are turning up in water supplies. The hormones given to cattle end up in the food. Cat food could very easily get extra hormones in it as the result of the animals being treated to grow faster and produce more meat. For an animal like a fixed cat that is not producing it's own hormones getting even a small amount from an outside source could trigger hormone related behavior. I would be suspicious of the food he is getting.

 

[Animal Freak]

Residual medications that someone in your house is taking might trigger the problem. That is the simplest way I can think of to say that. Some medications and even "food supplements" contain testosterone and estrogen also. Birth control pills are causing a lot of environmental oddities that they are now researching. The extra hormones get flushed down the sewer and don't degrade in the sewage treatment process and are turning up in water supplies. The hormones given to cattle end up in the food. Cat food could very easily get extra hormones in it as the result of the animals being treated to grow faster and produce more meat. For an animal like a fixed cat that is not producing it's own hormones getting even a small amount from an outside source could trigger hormone related behavior. I would be suspicious of the food he is getting.

That is interesting. But it seems like the other two would be affected as well? Is there a reason only one cat would act differently when they're all getting the same food? I do hope it's not that. It took a while for me to figure out that was what we were going to give them and I don't want to go back to their previous food, especially when they all seem to like this one. Frost is finally eating a good amount again and he needs to put on some weight.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

I think that the chances of that being the issue are fairly small, but within the realm of possibility.

Um...anyone pregnant in your house? We've had several cats go a little crazy when their humans got pregnant. The hormones cause changes in their scent, is my guess. And not ever cat reacts the same way, or at all. I wonder if puberty could do that as well...

 

[Animal Freak]

I think that the chances of that being the issue are fairly small, but within the realm of possibility.

Um...anyone pregnant in your house? We've had several cats go a little crazy when their humans got pregnant. The hormones cause changes in their scent, is my guess. And not ever cat reacts the same way, or at all. I wonder if puberty could do that as well...

No, definitely no one pregnant. I have heard of cats acting differently because of that (though not in that way), but fortunately that's not possible in this case.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

~ticks off that box~ Well, there's one possibility down.

 

[Animal Freak]

Well, he's still mounting her and I still don't know why. He's done it twice today and once yesterday. He definitely seems to be responding to her meowing though. She always starts meowing and will keep it up for a bit if I don't get up and pet her. Then he starts meowing with her and runs over and grabs her. It does seem like he's taken to biting her now, but it's on the back rather than the scruff.

She seems pretty much unfazed though. I saw her lay down on her side when he tried getting on her and she just licked his head and he gave up after a moment. I think I might be more bothered by this than she is. The mystery is driving me crazy.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

I'd really recommend having his hormone levels checked, just so you know. She seems fine with it, and it isn't harming him, but I know it is bothering you...if not that actualy activity, then the "why" of it all.

 

[Animal Freak]

I'd really recommend having his hormone levels checked, just so you know. She seems fine with it, and it isn't harming him, but I know it is bothering you...if not that actualy activity, then the "why" of it all.

I'm going to look into it. It really does seem to bother me more than it does either of them. I'd be fine if it was something he did once or twice to try to gain some dominance, but twice in one day is a bit much. And, yes, the question of "why" is definitely driving me crazy. There's still the fear of him pushing his luck and her getting tired of it too. I don't really want to go back to daily attacks. It's bad enough that there's still the occasional issue between them. We don't need it to become more frequent.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Oh, if he annoys her, she'll let him know in no uncertain terms. Quickly and definitively. And it would be very rare, indeed, for that to ruin their relationships. Cats are very pragmatic about things like that. A few cuffs and a spit or two, and they shrug their shoulders (metaphorically) and say, "OH...well, if you feel that way about it..." and never give it another thought.

 

[Animal Freak]

Oh, if he annoys her, she'll let him know in no uncertain terms. Quickly and definitively. And it would be very rare, indeed, for that to ruin their relationships. Cats are very pragmatic about things like that. A few cuffs and a spit or two, and they shrug their shoulders (metaphorically) and say, "OH...well, if you feel that way about it..." and never give it another thought.

She'll definitely let him know. I have no doubt about that. My concern is that she tends to be a somewhat timid cat who hates change and her self-esteem drops rather quickly. If I give Ash a bath, she'll attack him for a week. We've gotten into a bit of a mess a few times because something happened that made her feel insecure, she lashed out at Ash, her attacks caused him to lose confidence, and then he became a target because of that. And it's not an easy cycle to break. I often spend a few weeks, a month, maybe even longer trying to boost both of their confidence levels and regain peace. Of course, this is a slightly different situation and that may not happen at all, but having just broken that cycle for probably the fourth time, I'd rather not risk it.


Oh, I forgot I wanted to mention something. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with his mounting Ember or not, but I thought I'd bring it up. Ash seems to be getting really pushy and not just with Ember. He's been stealing Frost's food lately. I mean just walking up and pushing his head into the bowl, forcing Frost to back off. Now, them eating Frost's food in itself isn't unusual. For a while Frost was refusing to eat much, if any, food and they'd come finish off what was left. However, it's actually pretty rare for any of them to push someone out of the way. Frost is a really slow eater, but they don't usually give him any trouble. But now Ash isn't only eating Frost's food before Frost is done, but he's persistent about it. I have to get up and shoo him away and he'll go back a moment after I sit back down.

He's been a little pushy with me too when he wants attention. Yesterday morning he got in my bed before I got up and started headbutting me. It wasn't a very gentle headbutt either, but a very demanding one! And he's done it a couple of time since then too, but that's honestly not that weird. I wouldn't think anything of it if it wasn't for the timing of it. He goes through phases where he wants a lot of attention and phases where he wants barely any.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Get those hormone levels checked. He's sounding awfully "tomcat-y" to me!

 

[Animal Freak]

Get those hormone levels checked. He's sounding awfully "tomcat-y" to me!

Yes, I actually forgot to get on here and post about that. We called the vet yesterday and she called us back later. We, of course, missed that phone call, but she did leave a message. Basically, she said that it's behavioral and they don't leave anything behind that would produce hormones. He's just trying to boss my other cat around. So it doesn't really sound like she's willing to even consider the possibility. We've never had a problem with this vet, so it's not like I would even say it's a bad place to go if something had gotten left behind, but I don't really like that they won't even consider it. I don't really know how much she knew though because my mom made the phone call. I don't know what she told them or what was passed on to the vet. But we've gone six years with no signs of dominance, four years living with this cat and he's never done this. He's clearly responding to her meows too. I don't really know anything about dominance in cats since I've never dealt with it, but that doesn't really seem like dominant behavior to me.

Also, earlier today Ember was meowing again. It took a bit, but Ash came running over meowing. He got on her, bit her back and then just sort of kneaded her. She laid down and he'd put on foot on her side and knead like they do when they're getting petted. She dealt with it for a moment, twisted around to lick his head, and then all of a sudden took off and ran down the hall. Her running like that worried me a bit that he might have accidentally hurt her or she had finally had enough, but seconds after the fact she was totally fine. Not avoiding him at all. I'm kind of surprised she's handling this so well.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

It is rare that neutering would leave anything behind, but it does happen...far, far less than with spaying, but it does. Especially if you are dealing with the occasional cryptorchid cat (one or both testicles not descended). I won't second guess her, though. I wonder if her hormones might need checking (your female, not the vet)...this is just so like a tom reacting to a queen in heat, that one can't help but go there. AND, I have to add, that even neutered males will display mating behavior with queens in heat especially if they were neutered later in life. They don't forget, they just lose the urgency and willingness to wander and fight over it all.

You might want to consider a cat behaviorist, although they can be pricey. And so long as she is handling it all so well, you're in pretty good shape, other than the affront to your sensibilities. And it certainly can be an affront. Cats are just so...cat...when it comes to these things. Many, many years ago, we adopted a "neutered" male cat as a companion to our female. They got along like a house on fire. We had no clue that anything was amiss until he mounted her, in the dining room, on a Sunday afternoon, in full view of the preacher and his wife. My mother was mortified, and Bosco went in to have his (undescended) boy bits removed.

 

[Animal Freak]

It's funny you mention it being more common in cryptorchid cats. That was Frost. We bought him as a female. He was named Bella. We even considered breeding them once before getting them neutered. We only found out he was a male when he was neutered and the vet called us. And now it's Ash mounting Ember.

I was actually going to bring Ember's hormones up. I still don't understand why he'd start this right now after four years. It seems like it would have happened before. Her meowing is nothing new though, admittedly, much more common since I've been home more lately. She does most of her meowing when I'm home at a time I'm not usually home. She'll stop around 2-3p.m. and I would usually be getting home around 3. That's not to say she won't meow after that, but much less and usually at night(a routine I blame on Ash). However, I do believe we got Ember spayed at another place because there was somewhere offering really cheap neuters with shots and we got her mother and both kittens done. Three cats can be a bit costly.

I would love to be able to afford a behaviorist. If I could, I would have found one for my dog already. But we're not rich by any means and right now things are a bit tight. As you said, nothing is really coming of this and so I'm not in any rush to hire a behaviorist. In the future, when we have a bit more money and if this is still going on, then maybe. With my luck, they'd never even see Ember anyway. She only comes out for some people when she wants to.

Haha. Yeah, I guess it could be pretty awkward if others are here. Fortunately, we're not very social people so that doesn't happen often. And when people are here, Ember typically hides for at least a few minutes. Ash doesn't usually care and as long as Ember has attention, she has no reason to meow. If I respond to her meowing first, Ash won't do anything. It's just when I ignore her and she keeps meowing that he comes running over. So I don't think it'll be hard to keep him from doing it when others are around. I just don't feel like getting up every time she meows. I wouldn't get anything else done.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

LOL, well...I'm a bit lost at this point, although it does seem as if Ember is asking for attention, and Ash is saying, "Well, OK, I don't mind a bit!" DEAR LORD, I want to be able to talk to cats!