Stud Service Question

[KatsPurrrsians]

This is the first time I'm allowing one of my males to stud outside of my own queens and I have a question. I've done a good bit of research and I think I have all my ducks in a row except for this one complication. If I'm asking for female pick of the litter instead of stud fee, how can I ensure the other party isn't going to hide the female POL from me and give me the second best?...or for that matter claim he had no females at all? Then what IF he doesn't have any females? How does one go about proctecting their investment in the event that any of scenarios were to happen?

This isn't a question that would have even entered my mind, but my husband brought it up to me and now it has me wondering. The man I'm studding to is a friend of a friend. He's been very generous and kind thus far and I can't see a reason not to trust him, but I must admit, it is a legitimate question or concern. Back when I bred dogs I always took stud fee or paid stud fee (even early in my cat breeding days when I didn't have my own toms) but this particular female is exactly what I've been looking for as far as color and pedigree for a new addition to my breeding program. And the man has also offered to let me use one of his males in the future if I want.

So what do we breeders do to protect ourselves here?

 

[abyeb]

I'm not a breeder myself, but all of the breeders I've met seem incredibly honest, because, after all, you're all working together to preserve and improve the breed. That being said, you could request to see a picture of all the kittens as newborns so that you know how many there are. As newborn kittens, you won't yet be able to tell who is the POL, so you don't have to worry about the breeder hiding one of them. You could also maybe draw up a contract between the two of you.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Thanks abyeb ! That's an excellent point that I had not yet thought carefully on (the fact that when they are born he won't know POL yet)! But right now he's mostly concerned with keeping a female and I'm mostly concerned with getting a female. When I told him I'd like a female POL, he was actually the one that said "But what if she only had 1 female?...or none at all?". In his defense, he is a bit akward and he's also new at breeding. He just bought his first queen not too long ago. But he was very concerned with making sure her health was of utmost importance and doing everything by the book. Which is a good sign. I don't want to make it out like he's not an honest person. Like I said, it was just a hairbrained remark my husband brought up that got me thinking about it and I realized that this is a legitimate concern, which made me wonder how other breeders go about addressing such issues. I trust him. My friend knows him and I trust her judgement. He's provided all the necessary documents to ensure his queen is healthy and disease free. He's a new breeder and I know I've been there before. If it weren't for others trust I wouldn't have a breeding program today. But sometimes I can be too trusting if you know what mean

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

.
You won't care for this as advice, so I'll simply say it's the opinion of an old man, albeit an old man who's been to a cat show or two, and has met a few breeders along the way:

Even the most discerning eye won't be able to tell the "pick of the litter" when the kittens are aged for parting (12 to 14 weeks), because you've had no daily interaction with the kittens, and won't be privy to knowledge about each one's individual temperament - and in a show cat, temperament counts in spades. Basing "pick of the litter" wholly upon looks - even if the cat will only be bred, and never shown - is a fool's errand, since looks at parting age can change drastically over the next two years. Eye colour, coat quality, and even the planes of the head can and will change as the kitten grows.

Are there "great" kittens... kittens who are clear winners from the start? There are in certain breeds. A blind man can see a great Main Coon, Russian Blue or Burmese kitten from the International Space Station without taking off his sunglasses, but in most breeds, the changes which will be wrought by Father Time are too sweeping to circumvent with a cursory glance at age 14 weeks.

Even making a choice for colour alone is a gamble, since the breeder (i.e. the Queen's owner) holds all the cards - even if she or he won't be able to see the cards immediately - and without examining the DNA markers, it's impossible to know which genes each kitten has inherited, and which might fit into a particular breeding program.

Strictly an opinion, and nothing more. Best of luck in this endeavour, KatsPurrrsians .
.

 

[posiepurrs]

I can't really give an opinion on this because I have never studded out or sent a girl to a stud (I just couldn't part with them that long!). There are very few breeders I would trust enough to do this with. However you say he has offered documentation that the girl is healthy? Did he provided a PCR fecal test? I only ask because TF is also spread through grooming of the anal region that happens after breeding. Most don't think to provide that.

Even the most discerning eye won't be able to tell the "pick of the litter" when the kittens are aged for parting (12 to 14 weeks), because you've had no daily interaction with the kittens, and won't be privy to knowledge about each one's individual temperament - and in a show cat, temperament counts in spades. Basing "pick of the litter" wholly upon looks - even if the cat will only be bred, and never shown - is a fool's errand, since looks at parting age can change drastically over the next two years. Eye colour, coat quality, and even the planes of the head can and will change as the kitten grows.

There are some long time breeders that can look at a kitten at 6 weeks to decide if they are the pick - and I have never seen them make a mistake about the kitten. Kittens can fall apart and go through an awkward stage, what I call the uglies, but come back together. I wouldn't chance it if you want to keep your program small. As for temperament, there is a thought that the studs personality influences the behavior of the kitten. In my own breeding program I have found this to be true. One of my boys is inquisitive, into everything and wants to be top cat. His kittens were not the best to show - to strong of a personality. My other boy (Camie and Jacks sire) is what I refer to as a speed bump - nothing rattles him. His kittens all have wonderful show personalities.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

There are some long time breeders that can look at a kitten at 6 weeks to decide if they are the pick - and I have never seen them make a mistake about the kitten.

Yes - at least two come immediately to mind - but they could both find a National Winner in the dark, using just one hand. J.*. can see every nuance in every kitten, and she could probably tell you how many rosettes the kitten would collect by age three - but thirty-five(?) years of working with the same breed has a tendency to sharpen the senses; the other really doesn't count, since she's a long time Maine Coon breeder, and making the pick of the litter is much easier, but yes - your point is valid - experience (and a great eye) counts.
.

 

[GoldyCat]

KatsPurrrsians I think you need to define how the the POL is going to be determined, who decides (you or other breeder), etc. and have it written into your contract. You also need to have in the contract what happens if the is only one female or no females. It doesn't matter how much you trust the person who recommended the other breeder to you, everything still needs to be in writing. You may think you've got it all sorted out, but different people can have different interpretations of verbal agreements.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Great advice and points from everyone! This helps a lot! I will most definitely put these things in writing and go over all points with the breeder GoldyCat . I've already begun working on the contract. I will def ask about PCR fecal as well posiepurrs . Great point! I had not thought about this so thanks much!

One more question...before we had agreed upon POL over stud fee, he asked if I could guarantee a "live litter" and if I'd refund his money (if we went stud fee route) if the delivery did not result in a live litter. I've never heard of this question before. I told Him my males were proven breeders and all I can do is guarantee conception via pregnancy confirmation by vet. And that if the vet confirms the mating did not take than ill offer my services once more after seeing vet records stating such. But after the pregnancy is confirmed I can't guarantee anything as far as the delivery goes. Is this an accurate thought on my part ?

 

[GoldyCat]

Ask him if he can guarantee a live litter from his queen. If he expects a positive he has equal responsibility with you.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

One more question...before we had agreed upon POL over stud fee, he asked if I could guarantee a "live litter" and if I'd refund his money (if we went stud fee route) if the delivery did not result in a live litter. I've never heard of this question before.

This is absolutely standard practise for studs in certain breeds - and it's an absolute when dealing with F generation stud contracts for Chausies, Bengals (including F² hybrids such as Serengetis and Cheetohs) and especially in Savannah breeding, as the F Generation Serval is always the Queen and never the stud:

FARM SHOW - Hybrid Cat Acts Like A Dog

I've never heard of a stud provider asking for a live litter warrant from his serviced queen, nor can I see any sense in that, since impregnation is the responsibility of the stud.
.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Ok. Yes, that was my thought exactly. Especially since I'm now wanting POL!

 

[posiepurrs]

Get everything agreed upon in writing and make sure everyone understands exactly what they are signing. It could be beneficial to talk to a lawyer. That way you have all the legal bases covered and avoid the 'He said, She said' problems. As someone who has had a queen abort and lose an entire litter, I would never ask for a live litter guarantee - there is just too much that can happen during the pregnancy. Have you studied the pedigrees of the cats involved? Are you are aware of the inbreeding coefficient? One of the more experienced breeders (or a numbers person) could help with that. My pedigree program on my old computer figured that for me.

 

[StefanZ]

In Sweden the fees ARE based on living litter. The basic stud fee is in the self mating, but the other bigger part, fees for alive kittens is for alive (healthy) kittens... So this demand is natural.

With POL I presume its some sort of chosen kitten whom you want to use for further breeding?

Now, Im not sure this matters much. I know many a breeder whom started not with a choosen kitten, but with a kitten unsold. The kitten they got because it was at all possible to get, essentially. Of course, this kitten being a little older, was easier to see if it was a feasible kitten for starting a breeding upon.
If the kitten wouldnt be feasible, they wouldnt buy it, or they wouldnt breed upon it, just have it as neutered pet and friend.

Somebody DID mentioned above, with kittens of max 12 weeks you really dont see whom is the best.

Also, the lineage between the siblings is the same... As long both are good type, healthy, etc, it doesnt matter much, not for breeding. Perhaps for show quality, but probably not for breeding.
That is my impression and the little knowledge I do have.

And sometimes you get nicely surprised. When we could choose between the boys to be our oldest resident, we choosed one "because". While the other whom was supposed to be the one of show-quality went to the other buyer.
How did it ended? It was ours whom got the show titles, the whole Swedish world of Russian blue breeders standing around him and admiring, and it was he whom become the Ancestor, father, grandfather etc... The only sad he didnt got so many matings as he deserved.

At this moment we have at home his young descendant x6, and already two ladies waiting on him...

 

[10009891]

Do ALL stud males spray?

 

[abyeb]

Do ALL stud males spray?

Very few don’t spray. We had a recent thread about this: Do All Males Spray If Not Neutered?

 

[posiepurrs]

It is a very rare whole male that doesn't spray, but you also need to know that whole females will spray too.

 

[di and bob]

I would have in the contract that if there are no females that a agreed on fee would be accepted, or a second breeding attempt. Everything needs to be written down, any 'add ons' null and void the original, so try to cover all bases.

 

[Sarthur2]

Every single concern you've mentioned should be clearly stated in a contract that is negotiated, agreed upon, and executed BEFORE your stud performs any services.

 

[Nancy B.]

Hi KatsPurrrians,
I know your exact concern. As I presently have the same concern myself. My concern, like yours is not so much being able to choose a kitten at any given time as I see other people saying that you can’t see fully what the cat will look like when they are newborns and yes, all the advice from others to draw up a contract between the two of you is great, but contract or no, it stil doesn’t guarantee that the Queen’s owner is going to be honest and tell you how many kittens in total the queen had, how many males, females. Are you REALLY getting “ first pick” Did he really have a certain # of females to which he can’t come back at you and tell you ( since you want first pick of the female) that he didn’t have any females and hold a first pic quality female for himself? THAT’S my exact concern like yours. When the studs owner first asked me if he could breed his queen with my Gorgeous wonderfully pedigreed Male Bengal who originally came from a well known Cattery in Canada who sells to breeders mostly and the kittens produced at amazing. He and my queen produced some beauties. I know he doesn’t have money for a stud fee and I’d like to add another girl to my small cattery so I said from the beginning that ID like POL. A couple of days went by and he wrote back that HE would like the POL female which didn’t sit right with me. Of course other breeders
might have different rules or ideas between them, but generally POL means POL. Not the Queens owner not only gets to breed with your Stud, but then you get 2nd pic of Females and first pick of Males. I was doing this to GET A FEMALE and he knows this. I haven’t fully responded to his text yet. I just said, “ you know that I wanted a Female and POL means Pick of the whole litter, not part of it. Again, others might do it differently, but for what I am offering with my beautiful stud and to keep his Queen in a full sized bedroom with my Stud who is very sweet and gentle and never disappoints when it comes to impregnating and producing for a good amount of time then PICK OF THE LITTER is my “price.” So I’m in the dilemma with the same concerns that you were in when you posted. If Queens owner calls you when the litter is born and tells you that he didn’t have ANY females which is possible, but he’s just saying that so HE can keep the one and only female born or if more then one is born, how do you know that HE won’t keep that kitten aside and hidden if you wanted to visit them to watch them develope until ready to go to their new owners? I’m sure it’s been done. There are some great and honest breeders out there, but there are also some unscrupulous ones too. If you don’t live close, like myself and Queen’s owner ( 7 hour drive) then you can’t be certain that you are indeed getting the POL female you want. If you live somewhat close. You could also just “ stop by” unannounced while kittens are still very young and still all together gathered up with mom without having him see you arrive so he doesn’t have time to remove and hide females from mom and litter. I’d also make sure that that would be a time that he would most likely be alone at home so he couldn’t stall you in the living room while wifey is stashing female elsewhere. I know that that may feel a bit odd or paranoid, but if you really want that female POL sand have doubts that he may be dishonest, then that’s about the only fool proof way to see that he’s being honest. Also, if you know any friends that he may also know who go to his home, you may want to take them aside and tell them your concerns and just ask them to let you know how many kittens he had when they are old enough to determine the sex.
I hope you got your POL female.