Still battling the "defecating outside the box" problem

[dkperez]

I THOUGHT I'd started a thread in here last June, but I can't find it...  We've been battling this for at least 8 months now, and just don't seem to have a solution.

We have two cats.  Brownie is a 9 pound, brown female rescue cat about 5 years old.  She's spayed and was declawed prior to our taking her in.  We've had her for four years, and until last June NEVER had a bathroom problem.

Skyy is a 6 pound (very small), female rescue cat also about 5 years old.  She's also spayed and we've had her the same time.  We adopted them both from the same shelter on the same day.

Last June Brownie defecated next to the litter box.  We cleaned it and thought it was just an accident.  Happened again.  Then she went on the throw rug near the box.  And so on.  Not all the time, but randomly and periodically.

I can't even recall all the things we've done, but I've read information in here and at least TWO other cat forums...

We've had BOTH cats to the vet for full checkups and tests and what-all.  Both checked out fine.
We went from one mega-Littermaid to having multiple litter boxes.  We now have boxes in the kitchen, two boxes in the laundry room, two boxes in my office, and a box upstairs next to the bathroom.  In the laundry room one box is a Littermaid with Tidy Cat, and the other is a regular box with Swheat (a wheat thing Brownie appears to use).
In my office we again have a mega-Littermaid and a regular box with Swheat.

After the vet visits we confined both cats to my office where I can watch them.  In here they have a huge cat tree and play area, two cat beds for napping, a computer where they can lounge against the exhaust to get really warm (I wish they wouldn't do that, but they're cats), separate food bowls for each cat, and fresh water.

We changed their diet from Science Diet, which they'd been eating for 4 years, to Hills i/d at the recommendation of our vet.

We added a mixture of chicken broth and Miralax to every meal, through trial and error determining the right amount of each so their feces is soft but not runny.  Originally, her feces were hard and dark, and the only thing we could collectively come up with was painful defecation since everything checked out medically fine.

We added a Feliway plug-in thing to my office.

And on and on.  As I said, I can't even remember all the stuff we've done.

Skyy is a digger.  She's like a miniature excavator, happily singing and yodeling and flinging litter all over the place periodically.  Fortunately, I've fling-proofed the Littermaid so her excavating stays in the box.
Brownie is NOT a digger.  She is much more genteel, going into the Littermaid or the box with the Swheat and using it.

After a month or so of confinement, Brownie was allowed out into the house when we were home and she could be monitored.  She was fine for a couple weeks, no problems, then she went outside the box again.  Back to confinement in the office with me.  I've watched her use either or both litter boxes at various times, and there's no straining or apparent problem.  

Another month.  Around Christmas she was paroled and was fine AGAIN for several weeks.  Then one day I found feces in the laundry room near the litter box (the one with the Swheat).  Back to confinement with me for several weeks.  NO problems at all.

A month later she was again allowed out when she could be supervised, but put back in the office if we were leaving or couldn't watch her.  After a few weeks of that she was paroled and allowed free access.  Again, things have been fine for several weeks.  Tuesday, my wife walked into the kitchen in the morning and she'd defecated in the kitchen.  Not next to a litter box or anything, just in the middle of the kitchen.  So, back to confinement.  

NOTHING either of us knows of has changed.  We're not home more or less than usual.  We haven't changed anything in the house - no new furniture, no new anything.  As far as I know the formula for the cat litter hasn't changed.  Nothing we can thing of...

We're out of ideas.  We both love both cats, and they get along fine.  But we've GOT to find a solution to making Brownie consistently use the litter box.

So, do we try confining her in the small, spare bathroom as the other writeup said?  That's the only thing we haven't tried - putting her in a room by herself for three days and so on...  

Again, we've GOT to find a solution because no matter how much we care about them, eventually my wife is going to get tired of never knowing when or where we're going to find droppings...

It's getting desperate here.  Help.

 

[momofmany]

I have 2 thoughts on this. First of all, try Cat Attract litter. It has a very earthy smell and it really draws cats to a litter box. Change out at least 1 of your boxes with this brand. Petsmart carries it. I had a cat that liked to pee in the sink and did this for years. He quit doing this the day I put out a box of Cat Attract and hasn't done it since - that was about 6 years ago.

Second, what type of tests did your vet run on your kids? I've only had 1 defecation problem in my house and it was with a cat that turned out to be ill. While his problem was identified with a simple exam, if the illness isn't showing any outward signs, that could cause her to poop outside the litterbox.

 

[lilblu]

Have you tried confining just Skyy to a room and letting Brownie roam around free? It could be that Brownie has become intimidated by Skyy for some reason and is afraid to use the litterbox. This happened with some cats I'm fostering. If you haven't tried this, I'd lock up Skyy for several weeks or how ever long you need to determine if she's causing the problem.

I'm also curious as to what kind of tests Brownie has had done. If she were my cat, I'd get full blood work, a urinalysis, urine culture, and a lateral x-ray. She could have megacolon or some sort of partial blockage. She could have ureteral or kidney stones, which cause terrible abdominal pain and painful bowel movements. Some cats will poop outside the litter box because of the pain and to let you know there's something wrong. These stones/crystals can't be detected without an x-ray or ultrasound and many vets don't think to check for them. Let your vet know that you want that checked out. I'm not sure if they have to inject dye into the cat first or not. The dye would be so that they can see the ureters and kidneys more clearly on the xray.

 

[sugarcatmom]

Along with the previous suggestions (Cat Attract litter works great in many situations like this), I wonder if switching to a good quality (grain-free, no by-products) wet food would help. The ingredients in all Hill's products are pretty lousy and could contribute to intestinal discomfort (and maybe even eventually chronic inflammation).

I also wonder if her declawed feet are playing a role. She may have phantom pain or early arthritis that causes her discomfort when she's in the poopin' position in the litter box. Maybe she'd be willing to use nice soft puppy pads placed in one of the boxes?

 

[dkperez]

We tried the Cat Attract early on.  It didn't work.  She still went outside
the box.  And worse, although I thought it stank a bit, my wife REALLY hated
it.  She thought it REALLY stank and gave her headaches.

And that was just doing the initial mix of the stuff with our Tidy Cat.  

So, after a few weeks of that, we stopped.  By the way, it may have an "earthy"
smell, but in a confined room (my office), it gets REALLY strong after a while.

But, I could try it again in one of the boxes in the laundry room...  Although,
I have the feeling that both cats and I may end up living in the garage given the
way my wife reacted to the stuff.

The testing was last fall.  The cats were in twice, the first time for a simple
stool and urine culture.  That turned up nothing.  So, when the problem continued
they went back in and stayed all day for a variety of testing.  I know they did
urine tests, and blood tests, but I don't believe there were any x-rays.

Is there some other test that SHOULD be done?  They both passed everything
with no problems last time.  Do I need to get them back in AGAIN for another round
of tests?

>Have you tried confining just Skyy to a room and letting Brownie roam around
>free? It could be that Brownie has become intimidated by Skyy for some reason
>and is afraid to use the litterbox. This happened with some cats I'm fostering.
>If you haven't tried this, I'd lock up Skyy for several weeks or how ever long
>you need to determine if she's causing the problem.

I can't say it's impossible, but it would seem odd...  They're both confined in
my office with me, and there's no problem with both of them using the litter
boxes.  AND, when they were let out, there was no problem for WEEKS, then in the
middle of the kitchen and on the throw rug a short time later...  

What would Skyy be doing that wouldn't happen for weeks, then cause Brownie a
problem?  That wouldn't happen when they're confined in my office?  And what would
have them be fine for four YEARS then start having a problem?

>She could have megacolon or some sort of partial blockage. She could have
>ureteral or kidney stones, which cause terrible abdominal pain and painful bowel
>movements. Some cats will poop outside the litter box because of the pain and to
>let you know there's something wrong. These stones/crystals can't be detected
>without an x-ray or ultrasound and many vets don't think to check for them. Let
>your vet know that you want that checked out. I'm not sure if they have to
>inject dye into the cat first or not. The dye would be so that they can see the
>ureters and kidneys more clearly on the xray.

I'll talk to the vet Monday (or possibly Tuesday.  My prefered vet isn't there
every day).  

>I wonder if switching to a good quality (grain-free, no by-products) wet food would
>help. The ingredients in all Hill's products are pretty lousy and could contribute
>to intestinal discomfort (and maybe even eventually chronic inflammation).

They ate a variety of Science Diet wet and dry food for the entire time we've had them.
Last summer, when the problem started, the vet specifically recommended we switch them
to Hill's Prescription i/d because it would cause minimal discomfort, reduce bowel
movements and so on.  AND, to ensure the stool was soft, the vet had us start mixing
2 tablespeens of broth with Miralax in each of the cat's food bowls.  We've been doing
that morning and evening since.  

On the good side, the stool is soft, where last summer it was much harder.  And we've
had no vomiting from either cat, or furballs for months.  But, if there's a better
food, I'm open to trying it.  What do you recommend?

>I also wonder if her declawed feet are playing a role. She may have phantom pain
>or early arthritis that causes her discomfort when she's in the poopin' position
>in the litter box. Maybe she'd be willing to use nice soft puppy pads placed in
>one of the boxes?

Is there some way of determining if she's having a problem?  She walks, runs, climbs the
cat tree, jumps up on things, jumps down from things, and generally acts exactly
the way she always has.  So, how would we find out of her feet are bothering her?

I looked up "puppy pads".  They appear to be something for housebreaking dogs.  How would
I use them with the cat?

BTW:  Skyy doesn't appear to like the Swheat.  She ignores the litter boxes that have
it in them.  She uses the Littermaids with the Tidy Cat.  Brownie appears to like the
Swheat, at least that's the box I see her using in my office.  Although, she will also
use the Littermaid, so she doesn't APPEAR to have some aversion to using the Tidy Cat.

So, I can talk to the vet, and POSSIBLY try the Cat Attract again, but we're both
getting a little dispirited and desperate.

 

[just mike]

Do both cats like the Tidy Cat?  If so, use the Tidy Cat and maybe sprinkle in some Cat Attract.  Do you keep the cat completely isolated in the office?  If so, maybe a gradual transition back into the household is in order with the Tidy Cat in all of the litter boxes.  I don't know how many litter boxes you have but the ideal number would be 3 if you have the room for them.  The rule of thumb is one extra box per number of cats.  You may have already tried all of these things and I'm sure you have used organic cleaners.  Another thought is hoods.  Are all of the litter boxes with or without hoods? Some cats don't like hooded litter boxes. Just my thoughts.

 

[sugarcatmom]

They ate a variety of Science Diet wet and dry food for the entire time we've had them.
Last summer, when the problem started, the vet specifically recommended we switch them
to Hill's Prescription i/d because it would cause minimal discomfort, reduce bowel
movements and so on.  

Here are the main ingredients in the dry I/D:

Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Corn, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Dried Chicken, Lactic Acid, Chicken Liver Flavor, 

And this is the canned:

Water, Pork Liver, Pork By-Products, Chicken, Wheat Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Corn Starch, Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, 

Powdered cellulose (basically ground up corn cobs, akin to sawdust), brewer's rice, wheat and variations of corn products have no place in a carnivore diet. I find it ridiculous that vets think a food like this should even be within a 10 mile radius of any feline. There are some decent canned foods to be had, just not from a vet clinic. Look for something like Wellness, Nature's Variety, Weruva, By Nature Organics, Merrick, etc. 

On the good side, the stool is soft, 

How soft is it? Cat poop should be firm. Not hard (litter should stick to it), but not soft either. Unless there is a diagnosed medical condition, an appropriate diet (rather than resorting to synthetic stool softeners) is a better way to achieve proper intestinal tract health. I'm not saying this will cure her extraneous pooping tendencies, but it's a good place to start. 

As for the declaw issue, I really have no idea how one would determine if it's an issue. Too bad cats couldn't talk! But in a way, she is talking via her actions. Now we just have to figure out what she's saying!

 

[dkperez]

>Do both cats like the Tidy Cat?  If so, use the Tidy Cat and maybe sprinkle in some Cat Attract.  

Well, I don't have any evidence that they DON'T like the Tidy Cat.  "THE EXCAVATOR" (that'd be Skyy) LOVES the stuff.  She gets into the Littermaid and digs and sings and chirps and flings litter everywhere.  If digging and flinging and whatever is a sign that she likes it, she REALLY likes it.  Brownie, on the other hand, has never been a digger.  She's MUCH more reserved and sedate the Skyy, but she APPEARS to use both boxes in the office - the Littermaid with the Tidy Cat and the regular box with the Swheat...

We HAVE the regular boxes (2 of them) because in the other forum where I was getting advice, they blamed everything on the Littermaids.  So, we got regular boxes.  Then they advised that maybe there was a problem with the litter.  So, we got SEVEN different
litters and started doing A-B testing to see which ones the cats liked.  Eventually, we ended up with one of the Tidy Cats because the cats seemed to like it and it has very little fragrance and the Swheat because Brownie seems to like it.

I'll have to buy some more Cat Attract.  It turns out my wife hates the smell so much she threw the whole bottle out!  It could be a real uphill battle to get this stuff into ANY litter box here.

>Do you keep the cat completely isolated in the office?  If so, maybe a gradual transition back into the household is in order with the Tidy Cat in all of the litter boxes.  I don't know how many litter boxes you have but the ideal number would be 3 if you have the room for them.  The rule of thumb is one extra box per number of cats.  

They're BOTH in the office with me.  We've been re-introducing for the last 2 days AGAIN.  They're allowed out into the house when we're around and can keep an eye on them.  If we're going to be gone for any length of time they're back in the office.
At night, when we go to bed, back into the office.

At the MOMENT, we have SIX litter boxes...  There's a mega-Littermaid with Tidy Cat in the office, a regular box with Swheat in the office, a littermaid with Tidy Cat in the kitchen (next to the throw rug where she's gone outside the box), a Littermaid
with Tidy Cat in the laundry room, a REGULAR box in the laundry room with Swheat that's about a foot from the other place where she's gone outside the box, AND a mega Littermaid upstairs, centrally located with Tidy Cat that NEITHER cat has ever used...  And yeah,
they both know it's there.  Again, we've got all these boxes, and two different litters because of all the feedback we previously got about the evils of Littermaids, the perils of clumping litter, and on and on.

>You may have already tried all of these things and I'm sure you have used organic cleaners.  Another thought is hoods.  Are all of the litter boxes with or without hoods? Some cats don't like hooded litter boxes. Just my thoughts.

When we've CLEANED, we've used (Nature's Miracle?) or one of the other specific cleaners for the situation.  We've also REPLACED the throw rugs in the areas where she's gone.

Not hoods on ANY boxes.  I don't think Skyy would care, but Brownie doesn't seem to like anything that's too confining.  That's also why we got MEGA-Littermaids even though Brownie is only a 9 pound cat.  So she'd have PLENTY of room...
 

 

[dkperez]

>I find it ridiculous that vets think a food like this should even be within a 10 mile radius of any feline. There are some decent canned foods to be had, just not from a vet clinic. Look for something like >Wellness, Nature's Variety, Weruva, By Nature Organics, Merrick, etc.

Give me a moment while I go into the corner and scream in frustration!  Not at you, at the situation.

When we adopted the cats from the rescue place, they'd been feeding them Science Diet.  We were told this was GOOD and the grocery store stuff was AWFUL.  So, we continued the Science Diet.  And for FOUR years we fed a combination of wet and dry.  Skyy loved (and may still love) the dry stuff.  Brownie ate more of the wet but occasionally had some crunchies.

When the problem started, we were told by our vet that the i/d was MUCH better than Science Diet and we should switch to that.  So we started with wet and dry.  Problem continued.  We were told by the vet to STOP feeding the dry and just feed the wet because the feces were quite hard.  So we only fed the wet.  And then the recommendation was to "add some broth to get the cats to intake more liquid and soften the stool.  Then we went to adding Miralax to the broth to get 1 tsp per cat per meal...  My recollection is this was something like 1 tablespoon per six ounces of broth with
each cat getting 2 tablespoons of broth per bowl of food.  Feeding was half a can per cat per meal (about twice as much wet food as we'd been feeding previously) when they had constant access to dry food.

Eventually, we ended up at 1 tablespoon of Miralax per 4 ounces of broth, which is where we've been for several months.

At this point I'm wondering if I should just go back COMPLETELY and start over.  My wife reminded me that when we got the cats, we tried a bunch of the canned foods.  I don't recall the other brands you named, but I remember trying Wellness.  Again, like the litter, we did A-B with the various foods to see what the cats ate and what they didn't.  Neither of them seemed very fond of the Wellness.  But we can try some foods again.

So, if the vet isn't providing good advice on the prescription diet, do we stop the stool softener and broth and everything and start over with some different foods?


>On the good side, the stool is soft,

>How soft is it? Cat poop should be firm. Not hard (litter should stick to it), but not soft either. Unless there is a diagnosed medical condition, an appropriate diet (rather than resorting to synthetic stool >softeners) is a better way to achieve proper intestinal tract health. I'm not saying this will cure her extraneous pooping tendencies, but it's a good place to start.

Well, I don't want to sound strange, but last year when the problem started the feces was VERY hard.  At least I thought it was very hard.  You could pick it up and squeeze it and it didn't compress.

So, that's what STARTED the whole food/broth/softener/etc process...  Now, when I've picked up the droppings they're squeezable but not runny.  Is it REALLY normal to be paying attention to the consistency of the cat's droppings?  Anyhow, it seems like they're "NORMAL", although I can only gauge "normal" by what I'd want coming out of me...

>As for the declaw issue, I really have no idea how one would determine if it's an issue. Too bad cats couldn't talk! But in a way, she is talking via her actions. Now we just have to figure out what she's >saying!
 

I have NO idea what she's saying!  She's a friendly, affectionate cat that likes to sleep in the middle of the bed when my wife takes a nap, and says "Hi" when she wanders over to me in the office.

She sits on my keyboard, touches my nose with hers, and generally acts like a perfectly normal, happy cat.  EXCEPT that after four years of being a happy litterbox cat, she decided to periodically NOT defecate in the box...  And she's STILL periodically not...  Like I said, she'll go 2 or 3 WEEKS perfectly then go NEAR a box instead of in it...

 

[otto]

Is it REALLY normal to be paying attention to the consistency of the cat's droppings? Anyhow, it seems like they're "NORMAL", although I can only gauge "normal" by what I'd want coming out of me...

Well it certainly is normal around here, and every other pet forum I belong to :lol3: You really can't compare human poop to cat poop though. Cats, as carnivores, by nature's design have poops that look different from humans'.

Bless you for caring and trying so hard.

I'm glad they are at least on a canned diet, even if it is Hills i/d. I recently took a cat off the c/d kibble and it has taken many months for her body to recover from 6 years on a corn laden diet.

How about adding cosequin to her diet? If she's experiencing some early arthritis from the declaw, the cosequin can help with that. Remember that cats will hide pain until it is so bad they can barely move, so her playing and climbing and jumping may not be indicative of being pain free.

I've also been reading about B-12 and cats. Some cats have nutrient absorption issues and they are B-12 deficient. You might ask your vet about trying some B-12 supplementation. Sub q injection is best (as opposed to orally), and you can do that at home. B-12 is light and temperature sensitive so you usually only pick up 2 prefilled syringes from the vet at a time, and the shots are usually given every 10 - 14 days.

 

[momofmany]

I just noticed that when you referred to Cat Attract, you mentioned that you used a "bottle". There is a Cat Attract additive that comes in a bottle, then there is the actual Cat Attract litter. I tried the additive first and it helped, but didn't entirely work. I switched to the actual litter in some of my boxes and that worked for me. Yes, Cat Attract smells earthy and must be scooped daily or it will let off an aroma.

 

[dkperez]

>I'm glad they are at least on a canned diet, even if it is Hills i/d. I recently took a cat off the c/d kibble and it has taken many months for >her body to recover from 6 years on a corn laden diet.

OK, you've GOT to explain this whole food thing to me...  We know enough not to buy the $0.49 per can stuff from the Cub, but Science Diet and Hills are recommended by the shelter people and the vet.  I've been in other forums and they said the Hills Prescription Diet(s) were excellent.  What SHOULD we be feeding these two?  Is there ANY chance that Brownie's behavior is being caused by the diet she's on.  Why would she be fine for so long then suddenly start this new behavior?

>How about adding cosequin to her diet? If she's experiencing some early arthritis from the declaw, the cosequin can help with that. >Remember that cats will hide pain until it is so bad they can barely move, so her playing and climbing and jumping may not be indicative >of being pain free.

Is it common for cats to have arthritis or other strange problems because they were declawed as kittens?  I normally wouldn't even have mentioned it when describing the cats 'cause its not something we normally think about.

 

[sugarcatmom]

 but Science Diet and Hills are recommended by the shelter people and the vet.  I've been in other forums and they said the Hills Prescription Diet(s) were excellent.  What SHOULD we be feeding these two?  

Shelters and vets tend to be rather clueless when it comes to feline nutrition. In fact, vets are brainwashed in school by big pet food companies like Hill's, Royal Canin, Purina, (their reps even teach the nutrition courses) not to mention having a financial interest in selling these products once they open a clinic. 

Shelters get free or discounted food from Hill's (part of Hill's agenda to get new customers - send a new adopter home with a free bag--o-kibble and they're more likely to buy it again). So obviously the shelters will be promoting Hill's as their part of the agreement. 

What you SHOULD be feeding them is a meat-based wet food with minimal to no grains and no by-products. Limit fish to a couple times a week. Some good info here on picking a decent canned food: www.catinfo.org   A raw diet is also an excellent option.

Is it common for cats to have arthritis or other strange problems because they were declawed as kittens?  

Very common. Declawing causes cats to change their posture (sitting further back on their paws), which can in turn change the structure of their tendons and muscles and lead to extra strain on their joints. 

 

[dkperez]

Well, things have deteriorated...

The last thing my wife does before leaving for work is feed the cats.  She walked in to the home office this morning and stepped in one of the three piles of feces on the carpet.  It was NOT a good way to start the day, with both of us cleaning up the mess and scrubbing the carpet.

It appears that it's not the food or the litter or the Feliway or the type of litter box or hard feces or broth or any of the other umpteen things we've tried.  My wife is ready to either give her way or send me to the pound - it's a toss-up which it'll be.

So, I called the other local vet and have an appointment for 10:30 Wednesday.  They want me, Brownie, a stool sample, her records from our regular vet, and as much information as we can put down about the chronology of what we've done since this all started.  I figure it's time for a second opinion and maybe some kind of additional tests, 'cause if we don't find an answer soon, Brownie's days here are numbered. 

Brownie is now isolated by herself in an upstairs bathroom, where at least if she doesn't use the litter box it'll be on linoleum, not carpeting.  The conversation here has been "strained". 

Unfortunately, the person I spoke to at the vet didn't make me more positive.  After a much shortened version of what we've been doing for months, she stated that we'd gone "far beyond what most people would do, and way beyond what I would have done."  I specifically requested someone with expertise in handling problems of this kind.  I hope the vet is more useful than the receptionist.

 

[otto]

Receptionists are not there to voice their own opinions, especially negative ones. I would have something to say about THAT to the vet. Thank you for not giving up on Brownie. A trip to the shelter is just a delayed death sentence, as cats with litter box problems are usually considered un-adoptable.

Three poops overnight is NOT normal. Cats should poop once every 18-36 hours, depending on their metabolism. This is definitely a medical problem she is having. I've forgotten if a complete culture, including a test for coccidia has been done.

 

[dkperez]

I have all her records now.  I don't SEE any tests for coccidia.  I do recall when both cats were taken in for testing that they both got shots of antibiotic even though they didn't show any symptoms or find anything on the tests...

My guess is the vet tomorrow will want to do a new set of tests since it's been 6 months.

Hopefully, they'll find something 'cause otherwise I don't know what we'll do.

 

[alleygirl]

Sorry you are having so many problems

You have gotten some great advice though. You might ask about having x-rays of her paws to see if there is some arthritis from the declaw causing her problems.

I really hope this new vet can help you find a solution.

 

[mystik spiral]

dkperez, I have been following this thread, and unfortunately I don't have any new advice for you. I just wanted to tell you that you are such a wonderful person to do what you are doing for Brownie. She is so lucky to have you, and I hope that you finally find out what is going on with her.

 

[dkperez]

Thanks for all your kind thoughts.

Brownie and I went to the vet today.  They did blood work, a rectal exam (basically she had a colonoscopy), x-rays, and some other stuff.  They won't have the blood test results until tomorrow, but the vet and I talked about a variety of things... 

He says he found no evidence of arthritis in the spine or hips.  And no abnormalities in her paws.  Not definitive, but he says if she was having problems with arthritis - whether paws or otherwise - she'd PROBABLY when jumping.  Brownie jumps up on a variety of things with no apparent hesitation, so he doesn't THINK its arthritis.  BUT, they have a radiologist that goes through there x-rays periodically, and he'll have her examine everything just in case.

He DID find that there was a "large" amount of feces in Brownie's colon and a lot of gas.  He isn't prepared to state that it's mega-colon yet, but he thought it was suspicious.  He also said the feces was(were?) hard.  Her anal glands were also quite full and he said that COULD cause discomfort in some cats.

Overall, from my description and chronology, he thinks there's a possibility that it's a physical problem, not behavioral. 

For starters, he doesn't think it's a litter problem because we tried so many different litters.  Nor does he think it's the Littermaid or any such thing.  But, he doesn't want us to change multiple things at a time, so we're to continue feeding exactly as we have been, continue the broth an Miralax.  BUT, he sent me home with Fortiflora, which we're to add to the food.  Apparently it's like "Activia" for cats.

We're going to be traveling for the next week with the cats (we have a 5th wheel), so the vet doesn't want to change anything important until we get back.  I offered to board Brownie with them so they could watch her behavior and see what was revealed but he's sure she'll do better with us than in a confined crate. 

He DOES believe there's a variety of things we can try including going to a different food (he's NOT fond of Science Diet or Hills) to see if she's having some kind of problem with what we've been feeding.  He also says if all the physical tests indicate there's no problem, and nothing else works, he believes there are things we can do beyond diet...  He says he's got another cat that's actually taking anti-anxiety medications and they've helped with a very similar problem.

So, we have hope..............

UNFORTUNATELY, Brownie didn't eat the entire time she was in the bathroom - three days.  Nor did she defecate, so I didn't have a stool sample for them to examine.  But, when we got home I put her in my office with Skyy and in an hour she defecated.....

BUT, much like the other day, it's not a single pile.  There are multiple piles a short distance apart, which makes my wife think Brownie may be having a problem, starts going, and is moving because she's in pain...  Anecdotal, but maybe? 

So, we'll know more tomorrow when they call with the results of the blood tests and stuff.

 

[otto]

Thanks for all your kind thoughts.

Brownie and I went to the vet today.  They did blood work, a rectal exam (basically she had a colonoscopy), x-rays, and some other stuff.  They won't have the blood test results until tomorrow, but the vet and I talked about a variety of things... 

He says he found no evidence of arthritis in the spine or hips.  And no abnormalities in her paws.  Not definitive, but he says if she was having problems with arthritis - whether paws or otherwise - she'd PROBABLY when jumping.  Brownie jumps up on a variety of things with no apparent hesitation, so he doesn't THINK its arthritis.  BUT, they have a radiologist that goes through there x-rays periodically, and he'll have her examine everything just in case.

He DID find that there was a "large" amount of feces in Brownie's colon and a lot of gas.  He isn't prepared to state that it's mega-colon yet, but he thought it was suspicious.  He also said the feces was(were?) hard.  Her anal glands were also quite full and he said that COULD cause discomfort in some cats.

Overall, from my description and chronology, he thinks there's a possibility that it's a physical problem, not behavioral. 

For starters, he doesn't think it's a litter problem because we tried so many different litters.  Nor does he think it's the Littermaid or any such thing.  But, he doesn't want us to change multiple things at a time, so we're to continue feeding exactly as we have been, continue the broth an Miralax.  BUT, he sent me home with Fortiflora, which we're to add to the food.  Apparently it's like "Activia" for cats.

We're going to be traveling for the next week with the cats (we have a 5th wheel), so the vet doesn't want to change anything important until we get back.  I offered to board Brownie with them so they could watch her behavior and see what was revealed but he's sure she'll do better with us than in a confined crate. 

He DOES believe there's a variety of things we can try including going to a different food (he's NOT fond of Science Diet or Hills) to see if she's having some kind of problem with what we've been feeding.  He also says if all the physical tests indicate there's no problem, and nothing else works, he believes there are things we can do beyond diet...  He says he's got another cat that's actually taking anti-anxiety medications and they've helped with a very similar problem.

So, we have hope..............

UNFORTUNATELY, Brownie didn't eat the entire time she was in the bathroom - three days.  Nor did she defecate, so I didn't have a stool sample for them to examine.  But, when we got home I put her in my office with Skyy and in an hour she defecated.....

BUT, much like the other day, it's not a single pile.  There are multiple piles a short distance apart, which makes my wife think Brownie may be having a problem, starts going, and is moving because she's in pain...  Anecdotal, but maybe? 

So, we'll know more tomorrow when they call with the results of the blood tests and stuff.

Yes, absolutely the multiple piles indicate trouble getting the poop out. The poor thing with all that old dried up poop in her, not to mention the full anal glands. Didn't the vet at least express the glands for her? I wonder why he didn't give her an enema while she was there to help her clean out? An x ray can diagnose megacolon, but she has all the symptoms.....

Thanks for the update.