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So That's Where They Came From!
- Thread starter Mamanyt1953
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Wonderful article! I love the illustrations, too. It's fascinating that cats were domesticated in two different waves. 
It's also great news to hear that research is finally starting to pay attention to cats. Dog research is much more advanced and it's about time cats got their due! 
It's also great news to hear that research is finally starting to pay attention to cats. Dog research is much more advanced and it's about time cats got their due! - Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #3
I watched a special awhile back about the worldwide DNA project for cats. It was fascinating. The best part was all of the footage of the teams out in different countries collecting DNA samples from native cats!
Fascinating study of cats. It is sad that the Vikings wore cat skins but it isnt much different than the natives eating their dogs.
A little off topic, but the article makes a comment about cats being "aloof". I see that repeated all the time and it really bugs me. This generalized statement is taken as a fact by a lot of people who for whatever reason have never had the opportunity to really know a cat. In my experience if a cat is aloof it just doesn't like you. It has nothing to do with the cats' character. Cats need better PR. 
OK, Rant over. Interesting article, though.
OK, Rant over. Interesting article, though.
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- #7
They are, but only compared to dogs. You will never in this world find a cat fawning at the feet of an abusive master. Or having a master, for that matter! I prefer the term, "independent."
That's interesting that some experts only consider them semi-domesticated. I've always wondered about that. It's amazing after that many thousands of years they're still basically the same as their wild cousins. I think that's why I've always adored cats. Sometimes when you look at them it feels like you're living with a wild animal.
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I have to totally disagree with the "semi" part. Okay, so we haven't had the same amount of time to totally screw up their anatomy like we have with dogs. Maybe it's for the best? Some of those dog problems from recessive traits being preserved and passed along, and other dog problems from the shape of the anatomy, those are horrible things we've done to living animals. But taking in a feral dog and taking in a feral cat, you have the same odds in both with getting an indoor, chilled pet.
I didn't mean it like that. 
You probably would have the same odds with a feral dog or cat.
I'm definitely with you on what we've done to dogs over the years being a bad thing in a lot of ways. People have bred them for doing things they weren't meant to do and then you get all these health problems and skeletal issues.....At the risk of being flagged and kicked off the forum that's kind of my opinion on what we've done to a lot of animals..... it's just not cool to be more concerned with how an animal looks or performs if it suffers because of it....It's arrogant and monstrous on our part...Like you said with cats we haven't had as long to change them. I guess we haven't used them for as many different things either. The way they were naturally was perfect for controlling rodents....So we haven't tried to change them until relatively recently....Hopefully we won't...Arghh....I'll end this before I dig myself in a deeper hole....
You probably would have the same odds with a feral dog or cat. I'm definitely with you on what we've done to dogs over the years being a bad thing in a lot of ways. People have bred them for doing things they weren't meant to do and then you get all these health problems and skeletal issues.....At the risk of being flagged and kicked off the forum that's kind of my opinion on what we've done to a lot of animals..... it's just not cool to be more concerned with how an animal looks or performs if it suffers because of it....It's arrogant and monstrous on our part...Like you said with cats we haven't had as long to change them. I guess we haven't used them for as many different things either. The way they were naturally was perfect for controlling rodents....So we haven't tried to change them until relatively recently....Hopefully we won't...Arghh....I'll end this before I dig myself in a deeper hole....
Cats also aren't as genetically elastic as dogs, for whatever reason. People have tried to breed for extra-small or extra-large cats, and they can't. Domestic cats top out around 25 pounds (I have heard about particularly large Maine Coons perhaps reaching 30 or 35 pounds but this seems to be an anomaly and not reproducible) and bottom out around 4 pounds; any cat larger or smaller than that usually has extreme health issues or is unable to breed. Whereas dogs can vary from 1 pound to 300 pounds, for better or worse :/. Maybe that's because we haven't tinkered with cats for as long as dogs or maybe there's an actual biological reason for it, who knows. But that's how it is right now anyway.
I agree that breeding for extreme traits is unethical and shouldn't be encouraged. Nor should viewing animals as only existing for human amusement, that they're disposable if they don't meet human standards. That's reprehensible.
I agree that breeding for extreme traits is unethical and shouldn't be encouraged. Nor should viewing animals as only existing for human amusement, that they're disposable if they don't meet human standards. That's reprehensible.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12
~waves hand wildly in the air~ Oh, I KNOW I KNOW! It is because the cat is the only animal that "domesticated" itself. They decided that there was a payoff in living near and with us. WE didn't have much to do with it, except to attract mice with our grain storage and such. The cats did the rest. They retain more of their natural instincts than any other animals in our lives. They truly have more of a symbiotic relationship with us than a "domesticated animal" relationship. They are not truly domesticated, which carries the connotation of "subjugated to our use." They remain themselves above all things.
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I heard there was some research into dogs domesticating themselves. That the current thought is a bunch of wolves started hanging around far too close to the hunter-gatherers' trash area and campfire, since both ensured food and warmth, and taught themselves to be overly friendly. After that humans figured out having them close was good for safety and an early alarm system.
So if both dogs and cats domesticated themselves by figuring out humans are indirectly good for the belly, why are dogs fully domesticated and cats considered only "semi"?
And at risk for being moderated, we are starting to hurt cats' health through tinkering with their breeding. Think Persian sinus problems or the narrowed brain cavities that Siamese are starting to get due to show preferences. Ick.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14
I hope that doesn't get you moderated. It's just sad fact. It happens far more often in the dog world, but I've seen it, too.
I don't consider cats to be domesticated at all. I consider them, as I said, to be in a symbiotic relationship with us. This is the definition of "domesticate" at Dictionary.com:
2. to tame (an animal), especially by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.
Symbiosis, on the hand, is the close association between two or more organisms of different species, often but not necessarily benefiting each member. In the case of cats, it does.
I consider that to be more accurate mostly by observing how well feral cats do as opposed to feral dogs. Now, I know both species face severe hardships in the feral state, but cats manage far better, and with a sort of grace that dogs utterly lack.
And there is the fact that one does NOT train a cat to any great degree. One shows the cat that certain actions in response to certain requests will produce desirable results, and the cat chooses to comply...when it wants to. Dogs...well...they are so dependent on us that they will attempt to turn their natures inside out to please us. LOL...my dad always said, "You train a dog what not to do. You train a cat what not to get caught at."
I guess all of that boils down to, it is the degree of dependence in dogs and cats that makes the difference.
I don't consider cats to be domesticated at all. I consider them, as I said, to be in a symbiotic relationship with us. This is the definition of "domesticate" at Dictionary.com:
2. to tame (an animal), especially by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.
Symbiosis, on the hand, is the close association between two or more organisms of different species, often but not necessarily benefiting each member. In the case of cats, it does.
I consider that to be more accurate mostly by observing how well feral cats do as opposed to feral dogs. Now, I know both species face severe hardships in the feral state, but cats manage far better, and with a sort of grace that dogs utterly lack.
And there is the fact that one does NOT train a cat to any great degree. One shows the cat that certain actions in response to certain requests will produce desirable results, and the cat chooses to comply...when it wants to. Dogs...well...they are so dependent on us that they will attempt to turn their natures inside out to please us. LOL...my dad always said, "You train a dog what not to do. You train a cat what not to get caught at."
I guess all of that boils down to, it is the degree of dependence in dogs and cats that makes the difference.
You're not the first one to bring that up here.
Just try not to mention it in the Breeding forum to a Persian or Siamese breeder. 
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I don't ever open that forum. We've got enough cats giving birth and more cats and kittens than we can give homes to. Deliberately making more is not something I can agree with, so it's best for everyone that I never click on that link.You're not the first one to bring that up here.
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I'm right with you! I have a hard time understanding breeding more cats, and dogs for that matter, when many more need homes.
Mingo just caught a mouse and is playing with it. So I guess he is still a cat working at rodent control. Oh my, now he's brought it on the bed. 
Mingo didn't finish the job. I had to throw the (live) mouse out the door this morning. His skills are deteriorating. Age does that to you.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #20
Lord knows, I'd be hard-put to catch and dispatch a mouse! I'm having trouble killing flies these days.
