Should we give up on an introduction

[CilandKia]

We have two 7-year old female cats who are sisters, Cinder and Noire. Recently, a friend found a stray kitten and really wanted someone she knew to take her in. We've been thinking of getting a kitten for a while so that if something happens to one of our cats, our other cat will still have a companion, so we agreed to give it a go and brought her into our home in late October.
We gave the kitten her own space and started moving the food closer to the door etc like all the forums suggest. The problems started right away with the scent swapping. Cinder peed in a few areas of the kitten's room when we first let her in there. From there it got worse; we were letting the kitten out because she's precocious and bored. We would lock Cinder in a different room while we did this. Cinder started peeing all over the house.
Meanwhile, we did get to the point where they will eat near each other with the door open, so we decided to see if we could progress to spending time in a room with them and playing with them. Cinder, however, is not easily distracted by toys and would spend the whole time hunting the kitten. We tried to stop their interactions before it got to a brawl, but we weren't always successful. Cinder goes after the kitten and fur flies.
We bought baby gates, but our cats are all creative escape artists and the gates were just a new puzzle for them; none of the 3 of them would relax or play with us when there was a gate up and the longest the gate worked to keep them separated was 20 minutes. This meant there was no way for us to leave them alone together. Supervised playtime was just an exercise in trying to end it before Cinder attacked instead of after.
During this time, we tried using Feliway with little to no effect.
With Noire, the introduction process went as expected; she is a little suspicious of the kitten but mostly just makes high pitched warning noises when the kitten tries to play with her and they leave each other alone.
Cinder's marking behaviour got so bad that we brought her to the vet. The vet concluded that it is just stress.
Right now, we've got Cinder on Amitriptyline and we've gone back a few steps in the introduction - we're keeping her in one bedroom and the kitten in another and letting them wander when the other one is locked up. Cinder's marking behaviour is reduced but not stopped - she goes for maybe 2 or 3 days before marking something now - and I still sometimes find her fixated on the door of the room where the kitten is, tail twitching. They will eat treats in sight of each other, but a staring contest starts as soon as the treats are gone.
I feel like the introduction process is stuck because I'm supposed to wait until Cinder is no longer stressed to progress with it, right?
Each of them living in a bedroom for half their time isn't really a sustainable long term solution.
Do we have to rehome the kitten?

 

[Alldara]

Yes, Cinder was showing her stress and you were still moving ahead. She wasn't ready to move ahead.

Scent swapping is bringing the scent to the cat (preferably with treats etc), what you're doing is site swapping.

As for rehoming, that depends on you. Are you prepared to roll back the intros and go at Cinder's pace?

Feliway will help with stress but it won't fix stress when you are still moving towards and even more stressful situation (in Cinder's view). It works alongside other supports to lower stress. It can take about a month to start showing improvements.

To me, it doesn't sound like they are ready for that sighted eating being that close. Cinder is stress eating, not eating, relaxed within close view.

If you decide to keep the kitten:

Introductions are a marathon, not a sprint. Especially, when, like in your situation, the cats are matched by chance and not personality. That's okay! Lots of people end up in this situation just from lack of knowing. It's just harder, and you will need to settle yourself down for a long introduction, which if we are considering full 100% of the time integration can take up to 1 year. (I recommend closed door breaks for older cats from the kitten, twice a day for a stress-free nap)

Re: gates - "none of them were relaxed". No, of course you couldn't leave them alone and unsupervised that sounds exactly right for the situation at hand. Gates are for supervised sighted time. Most of us have to stay near the gates to ensure no jumping. If they aren't playing and relaxed yet at this step, it is not time to continue forward. You can stack the gates of that makes it easier.

You could, introduce Noire separately, if you think she will move faster. We did intro Magnus to Calcifer separately from Calcifer and Nobel. We then allowed Nobel to watch Magnus and Cal play from one side of the gate. We allowed Magnus on both sides of the gate and kept Calcifer on one (Nobel has too much arthritis to jump). Do not progress Noire and the kitten until Noire and kitten are playing on opposite sides of the gate and showing signs of relaxation.

There are many many introduction threads on here with TONs of advice from experienced members. I really recommend peeking around and seeing what worked for others (as we can tailor the advice as you go, with more feedback from you), and trying some things out.

 

[Alldara]

Some things we did that helped:

-cat calming music with purring, available on any streaming platform

- when cats were preoccupied with closed door, I would slide treats on each side. Sometimes I would rub a treat on kittens cheek and then feed to bigger cats

- also play unsighted under the door with a paper straw or similar. Continue when sighted also

- treat "toss away" when staring. Teaches the cats to back up when stressed

- always something on when doing active intro things so cats aren't tense at each little noise

- always 1 human near the gate to prevent jumping

- loads of praise for any positive reaction (pets and high voice). Even looking at one another and then glancing away.

- talking to the stressed cat about what the kitten is doing. "wow, Calcifer plays" "Look Calcifer's eating. Good boy Calcifer. Good boy Nobel."

- letting the cat sniff me after petting the kitten and then giving them a pat when they are fully done sniffing. You can also let them sniff a toy the kitten was playing with or anything. I started this unsighted and continued while sitting at the gate. Then I also let the kitten sniff after they sniff

 

[CilandKia]

Thanks. I had already been reading this forum a lot before I decided to sign up and post. I have spent hours and hours reading cat behaviour advice over the last few months and will continue to do so.

There is a lot of feedback in here about all the things we've done wrong, which is great. I would like to address each thing you've mentioned but it will have to wait. I guess my most pressing question based on your feedback is how do we notice Cinder being ready to move on? How long before we conclude that she just won't get there - we don't love keeping the kitten locked in one room all the time, because it doesn't feel fair to her no matter how much we're playing with her.

 

[CilandKia]

Some things we did that helped:

-cat calming music with purring, available on any streaming platform

- when cats were preoccupied with closed door, I would slide treats on each side. Sometimes I would rub a treat on kittens cheek and then feed to bigger cats

- also play unsighted under the door with a paper straw or similar. Continue when sighted also

- treat "toss away" when staring. Teaches the cats to back up when stressed

- always something on when doing active intro things so cats aren't tense at each little noise

- always 1 human near the gate to prevent jumping

- loads of praise for any positive reaction (pets and high voice). Even looking at one another and then glancing away.

- talking to the stressed cat about what the kitten is doing. "wow, Calcifer plays" "Look Calcifer's eating. Good boy Calcifer. Good boy Nobel."

- letting the cat sniff me after petting the kitten and then giving them a pat when they are fully done sniffing. You can also let them sniff a toy the kitten was playing with or anything. I started this unsighted and continued while sitting at the gate. Then I also let the kitten sniff after they sniff

Thanks. We have found most of these tips and have been doing these things, so it sounds like the issue is mainly just that we've been doing too much too quickly, even though we thought we were going quite slow (it's been 3 months and we've been trying to ramp up slowly).
It seems like maybe our main problem was trying to make these sessions longer and longer instead of keeping them short, but I'm still struggling to figure out how we can determine if the short session has been successful enough that we should progress. Treat tossing, for instance, only works with Cinder about30% of the time - she's not particularly food motivated, which doesn't help things; I suspect that's why the process has worked better for Noire, who will do anything for a treat.

 

[CilandKia]

For some additional context, we did start with scent swapping and progressed to site swapping because it didn't feel fair to keep the kitten locked in a tiny room.
We progressed to introductions because Cinder was not showing signs of aggression at the door or through the gate and we were making progress in terms of her seeming less actively stressed during supervised gate sessions, but the marking was a clear indication that she was still stressed; we thought if we kept going and also gave them more unsupervised visual access, it would help her get over it. Obviously wrong.
We've gone back to their only interaction being site swapping and through the door. We've been at that stage for three weeks. Waiting for Cinder to be completely comfortable feels like we aren't working on the problem and it also feels like she might never get over her anxiety enough for us to move on.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Cinder is an older cat - it isn't uncommon for introductions to take months and months with older cats. As far as being 'unfair' to the kitten - she has no idea what is and is not fair, that is your interpretation. She is young and energetic and as long as she receives proper attention and care, once introductions are complete, she will soon forget what happened in the blur of months it took to get there. Kind of like a child's memory, how many can recall the things that went on around them when they were a small baby? You also have to spend time with the kitten inside the safe zone, when she is 'locked in' there. I don't recall seeing the kitten's age - the younger she is the better that she is always supervised during any of the introduction steps until she gets a bit bigger and is more likely to defend herself.

You have to give equal consideration about what is unfair to Cinder, as she has had many years of a lifestyle that is now being upended. Slowly trying to help her adjust, step by step - however long that may be - is working on the problem in a manner that is more her speed. She may never be BFF's with this kitten, but I imagine she can at least adapt eventually so that she peacefully tolerates its presence.

Maybe looking through these TCS articles might be helpful.
How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat – TheCatSite Articles
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction – TheCatSite Articles
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide – TheCatSite Articles

 

[CilandKia]

Cinder is an older cat - it isn't uncommon for introductions to take months and months with older cats. As far as being 'unfair' to the kitten - she has no idea what is and is not fair, that is your interpretation. She is young and energetic and as long as she receives proper attention and care, once introductions are complete, she will soon forget what happened in the blur of months it took to get there. Kind of like a child's memory, how many can recall the things that went on around them when they were a small baby? You also have to spend time with the kitten inside the safe zone, when she is 'locked in' there. I don't recall seeing the kitten's age - the younger she is the better that she is always supervised during any of the introduction steps until she gets a bit bigger and is more likely to defend herself.

You have to give equal consideration about what is unfair to Cinder, as she has had many years of a lifestyle that is now being upended. Slowly trying to help her adjust, step by step - however long that may be - is working on the problem in a manner that is more her speed. She may never be BFF's with this kitten, but I imagine she can at least adapt eventually so that she peacefully tolerates its presence.

Maybe looking through these TCS articles might be helpful.
How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat – TheCatSite Articles
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction – TheCatSite Articles
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide – TheCatSite Articles

Thanks! I have already read all these articles; they're part of how I found this forum. They are really helpful and encouraging, but it's hard to imagine that this is ever going to work. At this point, I have trouble remembering a time when I wasn't cleaning up cat pee every morning. I'm about ready to have a mental breakdown myself from all the frustration and guilt about putting my cats in this position
The kitten, O'Kosi, is 7 months old

 

[NekoM]

[QUOTE="Alldara, post: 5628567, member:
Feliway will help with stress but it won't fix stress when you are still moving towards and even more stressful situation (in Cinder's view). It works alongside other supports to lower stress. It can take about a month to start showing improvements.
[/QUOTE]
I completely back that. It can dial emotions down, but it won’t help to fix situations.

 

[Alldara]

Thanks CilandKia I always appreciate more context when trying to help someone solve a cat problem. Yes I think you're right that it's too much too fast. And then some fighting wasn't good too. Because they had those spats, it may take longer for comfort to build.

You could do a double gate with a sheet/blanket and slowly raise it (over days) rather than jump straight to full view.

Some things are trial and error. Like we learned that there was NO way we could incorporate food into an intro for Nobel.

I agree with FeebysOwner . The kitten doesn't know what's fair.

Is Cinder peeing when out of your room? If it's just door fascination, I would let it happen. Taking some of her territory away might be seen as punishment by her. I'm wondering if it's not a good plan to also separate her from Noire and risk having to reintroduce them to one another.

Let the door be fun if you can. Magnus really bonded by playing under the door with the other boys. He will trys to play this game, over a year later.

I would consider focusing on letting Cinder have the run of the house (except kitten room) again. And perhaps Noire and kitten as a solo venture of introduction.

Then, depending on how your house is set up, you could consider having these neutral areas. For example our upstairs is a landing, with 3 rooms off of it, bathroom, and two bedrooms. One Cal was kept in. One is ours. Usually that door was just shut. But during intros, we put the gate across the landing giving Calcifer the run of the bathroom, and two bedrooms but the landing for the other two.
This gave Cal the space for running and eventually Cal and Magnus lots of space for play. Nobel still had all his other territory that is Calcifer free, but then these two spaces had some Calcifer smell mixed with other family smells.

So this was a win-win. Basically two birds with one stone type situation.

 

[Alldara]

[QUOTE="Alldara, post: 5628567, member:
Feliway will help with stress but it won't fix stress when you are still moving towards and even more stressful situation (in Cinder's view). It works alongside other supports to lower stress. It can take about a month to start showing improvements.

I completely back that. It can dial emotions down, but it won’t help to fix situations.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah my best example of this is that Magnus is less jumpy when it's on rather than not jumpy at all (he has guest related anxiety).

We also found that multicat formula worked best for us and had better results than the regular formula. I think this is different per household too..

 

[Alldara]

Thanks. I had already been reading this forum a lot before I decided to sign up and post. I have spent hours and hours reading cat behaviour advice over the last few months and will continue to do so.

There is a lot of feedback in here about all the things we've done wrong, which is great. I would like to address each thing you've mentioned but it will have to wait. I guess my most pressing question based on your feedback is how do we notice Cinder being ready to move on? How long before we conclude that she just won't get there - we don't love keeping the kitten locked in one room all the time, because it doesn't feel fair to her no matter how much we're playing with her.

Sorry I missed you having 3 posts until I rechecked my notifications.

You should see that Cinder is fully relaxed between sessions. She should purr and play as much as normal and her body not remain tense and on high alert.

For example Nobel would play with his favourite toys when Magnus was shut in the room for his naps. He would lay on his back on the carpet and he would purr when being petted. So we knew we were at a comfortable pace, because he was able to bring that stress level back down.

Think of it like when someone has a strong fear and they're doing exposure therapy. If they aren't bringing the stress down between exposure therapy sessions, it would just be adding to the fear right?

As per how you know it will never work? This is home specific. How long and detailed are you willing to wait, knowing that it could take a full year? I believe it to be a very rare circumstance of 'never working'. It's really dependant on the human aspect of time and energy. That's different per home and that's 100% okay.

 

[ArtNJ]

Just to chime in, it sounds like there was gate jumping and encounters early on, so that time really doesn't count. Its sort of like if your gradually getting over your fear of airplanes, but then you have a flight with a birdstrike and a water landing. All your progress goes out the window!

But if I understand correctly, there have been at least three weeks of solid separation with a gate up, and yet when you did a trial, there was still stress peeing. I can see where that would have you wondering if you can beat this. But its absolutely true that sometimes its a long slow, many months long process just to get fairly close to toleration. And your handicapped somewhat by the fact that you cant just put them together and let them work it out because of the peeing. So I certainly wont judge you if you dont want to proceed. Better to make that decision now than in another month. But you could most likely get past this stage, eventually.

A few random final notes. I dont think you need to continue room swapping at this point, since their scents are surely both all over the house at this point. Not sure everyone agrees with me on that, but that is my personal view. Secondly, I agree that you dont need to worry about fairness to the kitten if you can go in there and play with it a lot. After all, millions of cats are quite happy in a studio. But I recognize that its very hard to do that given the gate, maybe door darting, and other household demands, so yeah, fairness to the kitten could play into your decision given the practical realities.

 

[NekoM]

For some additional context, we did start with scent swapping and progressed to site swapping because it didn't feel fair to keep the kitten locked in a tiny room.
We progressed to introductions because Cinder was not showing signs of aggression at the door or through the gate and we were making progress in terms of her seeming less actively stressed during supervised gate sessions, but the marking was a clear indication that she was still stressed; we thought if we kept going and also gave them more unsupervised visual access, it would help her get over it. Obviously wrong.
We've gone back to their only interaction being site swapping and through the door. We've been at that stage for three weeks. Waiting for Cinder to be completely comfortable feels like we aren't working on the problem and it also feels like she might never get over her anxiety enough for us to move on.

Your doing a great job, there’s never a predictability with introductions, there can be a little fine tuning and a few grey hairs, but your not forcing anything along which is a plus.

 

[Alldara]

Just to add, I certainly wouldn't judge if you don't want to continue for whatever reason.
Just take extra care that IF you do rehome her, that the next home is a guarantee. I adopted a cat who was shuffled around a lot and there was a lot of trust issues. She's a kitten and it would be simple to rehome to another quality home.

 

[catsknowme]

Intros can be such a challenge and inappropriate peeing is definitely one of the most frustrating issues. Your patience level is superb to have dealt with this for as long as you have.
Since Cinder is not food motivated, is she play motivated? She might respond to very intense play sessions. For that kind of play, I use a teaser toy attached to the end of a retired fishing pole. The pole greatly increases the diameter of the play circle so kitty is making 10-13ft "mad dashes" across the room and 3-5+ leaps into the air. Even my outside ferals who have an acre of rural property can get territorial and combative with each other but I find that fishing pole play helps to ease the tension and stop rivalries.

 

[di and bob]

If you decide to continue, I just wanted to say the introductions I went through took almost a year. But it DID happen. My male stress peed too, I remember the frustration finding all those spots every day.......I finally got some clear carpet runner with the little nubs on the back and put it nub side up in the spots he returned too, it did stop him from going there. He stopped peeing too, after a year! You might try some puppy pee pads set around and see if she will go there. There is some kind of attract scent put on them. I feel for you, but just wanted you to know it can work out......

 

[Arya Underfoot]

Don't give up, I had to introduce a kitten to two 7 year old sisters, there was a lot of hissing and fighting for 4-6 months before they started to accept each other. Some things that helped me was having a large 3 tiered mobile cage to lock the kitten away while she was being annoying - it meant the older cats could smell her without feeling threatened. I also played a lot with the kitten, so she was less likely to attack the older cats. It also helped the older cats, watching the kitten play made her less threatening. Another thing is having lots of escape routes, cat trees, shelves. Sometimes Feliway and CBD oil can help calm the cats. I do like the idea of cat music, anything is worth a try.