Should my two cats be together now?

[DreamiesProvider]

Hello, I posted on this forum before and received some great advice on another issue with my two kitties but I want to gain some advice on another step of the process of introducing two cats! For context: Stitch is 7 months old, Toby is 12 years old, Stitch was an unexpected rescue from the streets, we can't afford another kitten for Stitch I know this is often the advice, both space wise and financially it isn't possible.

I used Jackson Galaxy's guide for introducing two cats, we went really slowly and now have two kitties which can eat right next to each other with no problems. No hissing, no growling, nothing. They can also sleep in the same room together just not close by.

However, whenever my new cat (Stitch) comes up to the resident cat (Toby), Toby will hiss and growl. Toby doesn't show signs of aggression such as a puffed up tail, his ears are normal, everything seems calm apart from the hissing and growling when they are very close by, like right next to each other. They have also never fought. There are also moments where Stitch walks past Toby and there is no growling/hissing at all, but it's rare.

We bought a Felliway friends diffuser but only a day ago so it definitely won't kick in for a while.

We struggled to really find an answer in Jackson Galaxy's guide or online, is this normal? Should they be separated longer? Should they be together now? All we can find is that the guide ends with two cats eating calmly next to each other which they can do with no issues. We are a bit lost on the next steps.

 

[susanm9006]

I think your two are doing well together, especially considering the age difference. The hissing and growling is simply Toby’s way of telling the kitten they aren’t friends and to stay away. Since they can eat near one another and sleep in the same room, the message is being understood and they have worked out their relationship. Toby may always give the kitten a growl or over time he may stop, but I wouldnt worry about it.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

You, and they, are fine. Toby is just telling Stitch that he is an old man, and in no mood to play. I'd suggest making sure that Stitch has plenty of exercise/play time. A good wand toy, such as Da Bird, is excellent for this. I'd try for three or four good sessions a day until Stitch gets over the "kitten jitters," then two or three after that.

 

[Alldara]

Nobel does the same to Calcifer everytime he walks passed. It's fine. Stitch is listening so there's no concerns.

Nobel also cleans and play with Calcifer at other points. There's no guarantee that this will happen.

I would continue to give Toby some closed-door time daily away from stitch. Preferably you would play with Toby (he might just watch or he might roll and bat at it. I wouldn't expect him to necessarily run around. That is not what play looks like for senior cats most of the time). Then, perhaps Toby would have a nap and/or a cuddle in full peace. This was super helpful for Nobel and helped to stop what I call the 'jealousy hissing'. Where Nobel was perfectly fine all day with Cal while I wasn't home (wife was home) and then would begin hissing and growling at Cal the moment I walked in.

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Apologies for my late reply! Lots of work lately and we just got Stitch neutered!

They have been doing fine lately but Stitch has been trying to play with Toby more and more. We have plenty of toys for Stitch,cat wands, play circuits, interactive and moving toys.. we spent around £150 in new toys by now! We play with him lots throughout the day to the point he gets tired.. but he always finds a moment to try to play with Toby. I am not sure if they have to restart introductions now?
Toby hisses and growls, at one point he lowered his ears right back so he is taking the playing as aggressive. I am a bit concerned that their relationship is too strained and the whole thing needs a restart? Stitch doesn't seem to be learning the boundaries unfortunately.

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Forgot to mention, we keep them apart for a lot of the day to make sure Toby can sleep in peace! They aren't together 24/7 as we are worried about Stitch just never leaving Toby alone.. he is older so we really don't want to add too much stress into his life. When Stitch really tries to play with Toby (this started happening in the last few days), Toby stands up on his back packs just swatting the kitten - at this point we separate them as we aren't too sure if it's too much especially with Toby hissing, growling and once even putting his ears back.

 

[susanm9006]

Still all good. A seven month old kitten is never good at boundaries. When he gets to be too much and as he gets older Toby may go from simply growling or swatting to a good hard claws out whack. This is also normal and how the kitten learns acceptable behavior.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Yes, what susanm9006 said! Toby is almost certainly trying to teach this little upstart his manners. And that's actually a good thing. He is setting boundaries for the kitten, who will learn. This is pretty normal, and actually a good sign. Toby is not running and hiding from the kitten, nor is Stitch running and hiding from Toby. As scary as it might look to you, I think that most of this is simply Toby teaching Stitch how to cat properly.

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Wanted to update this post, I don't want to make new posts and constantly spam the forum so felt I could update this one! I want to say thank you to everyone who has been replying so far, it has been so helpful and generally comforting. I know someone here recommended Da Bird which we have bought for the little one and he loves it, we also started giving some alone time for the resident cat to give him a break during the day.

The chasing has stopped mostly, once a day it happens, but it's reduced by a lot due to Da Bird.
They can sleep in the same room, on the same cat tower (different levels they don't sleep right next to each other) and they even sat side by side.

My only concern is the past two days my resident cat, Toby (12) is spending all day in a room Stitch doesn't go to, a bit worried that he is feeling stressed/unhappy. He is eating and using the litterbox as normal and later in the day when everyone is in the living room he does come out and sit with us happily including near Stitch and doesn't mind. Important thing to note is Toby is not hiding in the 'under the covers, away from humans, hissing' way, he simply sleeps and enjoys himself in one room.

Just wanted to check in asking if this is normal? No fights at all still which we are very happy about. We have been keeping Stitch separated at times during the day to also give Toby a break and we constantly play with Stitch with Da Bird until he is tired (45 minutes or so of play) and then we stop and repeat after a few hours so most of the time he is calm now. We are thinking Toby will get used to the situation and start coming out more but we don't want to assume.

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Forgot to add, the only hissing/growling coming out of Toby is still when Stitch gets near, this usually gets more common around dinner time when both are feeling hungry. No other signs of aggression!

 

[susanm9006]

I think Toby is just fine. Cats will frequently change their sleeping or resting place. He has found a place he feels is quiet and Is enjoying it.

 

[Alldara]

This sounds pretty okay to me! Toby feels safe there, so it's fine to let him be. He should progress to coming out more eventually.

Keep at what you're doing until Toby stays out more if you can.

The Feliway multicat helped us. We put it in the family room. Though, honestly, it's helped Calcifer our newest cat more than our resident cat.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

LOL, keep in mind that Toby is the equivalent of a 64-year-old man, Stitch is the equivalent of an 8-year-old boy! No woner Toby needs some "me" time! The energy levels are very different, and Stich is at that "why" stage. "Why does the vacuum want to eat us?" "Why can I see outside but not smell it?" "Why can't I climb the hoomin's leg? It sure LOOKS like a tree to me!" 'Why, why, why!"

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Thank you everyone! We will continue doing what we are doing. Currently Stitch loves to try to play with Toby, Toby hisses and swats him back and is generally unhappy but of course we know he is setting boundaries so we are leaving them be for now. Toby has plenty of hiding spots Stitch can't get to so that is very helpful currently and Stitch has been loving Da Bird very much which really gets all that kitten energy out of him.

We have feliway friends for the living room, where they see each other the most - not sure if it has worked yet. I do think it has reduced some blocking that we originally had we will keep refilling it just incase it is working!

I've been wondering what would be considered a real fight that I should break up?

Currently these are the situations we allow/don't interfere with to let Toby establish boundaries:

• Kitten jumping and pouncing on Toby or gently swatting Toby as play (no hissing from kitten) and Toby getting mad swatting with growling and hissing.
• Kitten chasing Toby while Toby is hissing, in this situation the kitten always stops chasing Toby halfway up the stairs sort of like he realises it isn't working.
  
  I am also including a picture that I feel was an achievement - sitting on the same tower
  I do want to say thank you to all the wonderful people here putting my mind at ease through this process! This was all very unexpected as we rescued the kitten from the street and never planned on another friend! That may explain my lack of knowledge a bit
  
  
  

 

[susanm9006]

I would not consider it a real fight unless there is long screaming or howling, and fur being pulled.

 

[Alldara]

It can be hard to tell as it's very cat dependant. I would say if there's any loud "Eep!" or other pain sound, or any growling then stop what's going on with play or food or whatever. Distraction is best. Simply picking up one of the two cats and separating is also good. When I do that I say, "All done." Now if something gets out of hand (as it does with cats sometimes, especially boys. They can be rough), I just say, "Hey. All done." And they usually take a break.

I watched a lot of videos, but mostly it's about knowing your cats' body language and what means no to them. You'll learn over time. I did find the different videos helped me to gage.

If one cats hides after or cries out during, you can think back on the difference between the body language that time and other times. You can watch to see if they have that body language again. You'll start to recognize their body language and just know.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

I've seen some play-fighting get terrifyingly loud. You'd have thought someone was being killed, but not even a hair mussed. My general rule of thumb is, "If there is no blood/pee/poop on the floor, and/or no hunks of fur in the air, it is not a cat fight." Cat fights are brutal. SOMEONE BLEEDS. Anything less than that is either a heated discussion, or rowdy play.

IF a real fight breaks out, DO NOT WADE INTO IT! Grab a big piece of cardboard, or a large pillow. Place it between the cats, and use it to herd one away from the other. Then separate the two for a few days, regroup, and start over. I doubt this will happen, to tell you the truth, but it's good information to have.

 

[DreamiesProvider]

Thank you, looking at things we definitely haven't had a real cat fight which we are very happy about. A Alldara When you say growling do you mean from both sides? Toby does growl and swat the little one but we took this as him setting boundaries so we don't separate them. The kitten swats back but playfully.

It does make me much better to know that there is no fights so far, Mamanyt1953 we have a massive piece of cardboard luckily that we used when first introducing them I value my hands too much to jump into the fight luckily

We have been seeing a lot of progress for sure with Stitch understanding boundaries and walking away from Toby, Toby seems much more patient too.. Stitch ran past Toby eating for.. kitten reasons and Toby who would usually growl and hiss just watched him jump and continued eating. We will let them continue being together, makes me feel much better to know what a cat fight actually is.. to the human eye a lot looks like a fight!

 

[Alldara]

If there's any growling, I prefer to move the cat away (not the one growling but the other). I think it reinforces boundaries and stops the offending cat from thinking the other is playing. It's a personal preference of mine. I like Nobel to know I'm not going to let the other two push him around.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

While A Alldara and I are not right in synch on that, I will readily say that either method might work better, depending on the individual cats. It's ok to try out both of them, and see which works better for your cats!