Second cat, please advise!

kakers

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It sounds and looks to me like they're friends! The fact that they chase back and forth rather than only one doing the chasing tells us that they're playing and both interested. They still have a ton of energy at their ages so yeah playing for 2+ hours isn't outside of ordinary. If it were me I'd leave them out longer, they'll get worn out eventually. As long as they're only getting a couple hours together, they're waiting the whole rest of the day to play with each other and even with some time playing with you they'll have some pent up energy.

I wouldn't be surprised if once they finally totally wore each other out they napped together. They seen to like each other that much!
 
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Valerian

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It sounds and looks to me like they're friends! The fact that they chase back and forth rather than only one doing the chasing tells us that they're playing and both interested. They still have a ton of energy at their ages so yeah playing for 2+ hours isn't outside of ordinary. If it were me I'd leave them out longer, they'll get worn out eventually. As long as they're only getting a couple hours together, they're waiting the whole rest of the day to play with each other and even with some time playing with you they'll have some pent up energy.

I wouldn't be surprised if once they finally totally wore each other out they napped together. They seen to like each other that much!
As lovely as this sounds, I'm not so sure they'refriends just yet..

It's like it's up to Baby, sometimes she has good days/timings, other times she won't leave him alone and is all tensed up..
Just now, I let Zacky out but Baby instantly started jumping at him, puffy with ears back, tail wagging and big pupils. He kept running away when he broke free, while making "mrrr" sounds.
He started playing with a toy mouse by himself, or lay on or under the table, but she kept strike jumping at him. He kept running away and hiding behind mesh door and under the tables. He doesn't seek her, she always follows him and keeps jumping at him.
I'd say it's 75/25 Baby jumping at Zacky.
I can see he just wants to explore the house or play with his toy mice but she keeps jumping at him, grabbing his jaw and neck and biting him everywhere while he keeps running away and meowing :(

In the morning they had a more peaceful time together - she wasn't as annoying and looked A LOT more relaxed and the play fighting wasn't as harsh and it was more like 50:50.

Now, she looked pissed again and not accepting of Zack at all. It looked like she just wanted to control him and be bossy.
I don't understand why the change...

Please keep in mind the pictures I shared were the brightest moments of their interactions I happened to catch (in hours of them being together) They usually keep a distance from each other and the moment I cought on those 2 pictures didn't last for more than a minute.

I have to separate them soon usually because Baby won't stop jumping at Zack (it's never the other way around)

Any ideas why Baby looks more acceptive of him at some times and less so on other times?
Out of both of them, when by themselves, Zack is the one that's more playful and more energetic

I think I'll have to post some more videos, I feel so defeated again 🥺 I feel like she'll never totally accept him and only jas good times when she isn't as annoyed with Zack..
 
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Hellenww

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she just wanted to control him and be bossy
A big part of it is being a girl. The females are usually the rule keepers. He's also younger. The more she can get close and sniff the less controling she'll need to be. The best way this happens when they get bored with each other. Stop watching her so much. Watch him. Does he stay in hiding or come back out? Is he afraid to be near her? The most reluctant cat will tell you how it's going. As long as he's not scared all is good.
 

kakers

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Those brightest parts would not happen if they were not friends. It's perfectly normal for one cat to be more interested in play than the other and ultimately unless they're cause each other physical harm, they need to work it out between each other. Baby needs to learn when ZACK says no to stop. If most of that feedback is coming from humans, she's not learning is boundaries and he's not having the opportunity to communicate his boundaries firmly enough for her to listen.

I do hope you get some more videos soon because this all sounds very good to me and I suspect your nerves are coloring how you're seeing their interaction more than you realize.
 

kakers

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A big part of it is being a girl. The females are usually the rule keepers. He's also younger. The more she can get close and sniff the less controling she'll need to be. The best way this happens when they get bored with each other. Stop watching her so much. Watch him. Does he stay in hiding or come back out? Is he afraid to be near her? The most reluctant cat will tell you how it's going. As long as he's not scared all is good.
Yes this! 100% agree it's all about watching how he reacts. If he's not wanting to constantly hide or retreat to his safe room or trying to avoid her completely or looking scared if she approaches, all is well.
 

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Play is not always equal. I have a 12 and 9 pound cat now, and the small one always, every time, is the one to end play by making protest noises or running away. Its just the nature of things, some cat relationships are semi-permanently in the stage akin to 8 and 5 year old human brothers. They can like each other and play, but some mild problems and yelling are inevitable now and then. That said, if you let them be together 24/7, the instigator will get a lot of it out of the system and things will improve overall.
 

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It's also important to remember (even though I DO believe yours fall under "friends") that with cat introductions that's not the ultimate goal. Peaceful coexistence is the goal.

My new girl always chases my old girl never the other way around. She just wants to play but the older one isn't interested. The older one isn't bothered by her at all unless she's trying to play but you'll never find them as close as your two even for a minute, they always will keep at least a small buffer between them even if it's just a few inches. That's peaceful coexistence even though one always chases the other.
 

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Just now, I let Zacky out but Baby instantly started jumping at him, puffy with ears back, tail wagging and big pupils. He kept running away when he broke free, while making "mrrr" sounds.
He started playing with a toy mouse by himself, or lay on or under the table, but she kept strike jumping at him. He kept running away and hiding behind mesh door and under the tables. He doesn't seek her, she always follows him and keeps jumping at him.
This is play behaviour. She's testing with him. (Big pupils should happen even when playing with a toy. It's not agression. I'm not sure where the impression comes from)

The mrr sounds are a HUGE sign of play and happiness.

Honestly sometimes in my house Magnus walks up to Calcifer and then bites his neck and then they lay down and clean one another interspersed with Magnus biting him. Calcifer doesn't mind but I do still sometimes distract them.
 
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Valerian

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Hey everyone,

Basically what's been happening for the past week is that Baby seemed to have accepted Zack - she doesn't constantly try to follow him around and even wants to groom him every now and then (usually when they meet for the first time in the day and sometimes after meals).
Zack never allows her to groom her though and will evade and then start to jump/ mount and bite her.
Usually whenever Baby sniffed his bum, she would then start grooming him.
While when he was sniffing her, he started biting her afterwards and launches himself at her. Not sure what to make of that..? Baby would meow, hiss, and run away eventually, with Zack on her tail.

Most of the time it's now Zack "initiating contact". When she passes him, he will always jump on her when he finds her laying in his doughnut bed.

The thing that I don't like so mich is that he always bites her - he mostly keeps biting her rear legs and feet and her bum. She almost always meows and hissess, but he just jumps at her again and she eventually wiggles out and runs away. Every now and then she gets fed up and starts striking back at him with claws and that usually stops him, or at least eventually (sometimes it makes him jump at her even more).
Here's an example video:

i have more, but would have to look for them..

It's always Zack on top and it's now 85% him initiating (she usually runs away afterwards and doesn't initiate back).

They're trying to find peace from one another, usually always a room apart, and slowly it's getting better in terms of "play fighting".
There were a couple of times they were striking each other pretty hard - you could hear thumping and claws being used. Ears flat back amd posturing and launching fast at one another, some puffiness also (mostly from Baby).

I'm not sure what to make of it. Are they still pushing boundries and it's all okay?
I'm concerned whether I should allow Zack to keep biting Baby even when she meows and hissess at him...I mean, I can't and won't be able to always be there when this happens. Although I still separate them whenever I'm not home or awake.

I'll try to gather up more videos, if not sooner, by the end of next weekend.
In the meantime I'd love some more feedback from you guys❤

The mrr sounds are a HUGE sign of play and happiness.
Btw, I've noticed Zack only vocalizes by saying "mrr", and noticed that he only repeatedly "mrrr"s when he seems frustrated. Only rarely will he meow, a tiny meow when he sees a foodbowl xD
 

ArtNJ

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Respect, but your overthinking this. Video looks great, they are friends. Doesn't mean there aren't mild issues now and then, but nothing to worry about.
 
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Valerian

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Respect, but your overthinking this. Video looks great, they are friends. Doesn't mean there aren't mild issues now and then, but nothing to worry about.
I admit, maybe I am, I've never had 2 cats before, and I tend to worry when it comes to my kitties🙈❤

Thank you for your feedback, I'm glad you got a positive impression :) it's reassuring to hear from people who have 2/2+ cats :)
 
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Valerian

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Zack got a bit carried away today.. he was using his claws when wrestling with Baby - ot can be seen in the video. She meowed and there was some fur pulled out..

Is he still learning to not use his claws when playing?
 

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Likely yes still learning about claws. I didn't see anything of note. Calcifer's claws are long and grow fast so it snags on Magnus's hair frequently during spring and fall. I usually find a few tuffa of hair (the same amount as if I had brushed them off or gently pulled the tuffs off with my hand).

He's not tearing hair out or Baby would let you know.

Cats also use their claws as fingers sometimes, so you might see them out when a cat is doing a grabbing action.
 

ArtNJ

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Another perfectly normal video of friendly cats playing. Its getting warm. Hair comes off easy when its warm. No roots, no screaming, cats playing normally, no problem. Well, thats not totally true. With two cats, this time of year, there is a problem. The solution . . . is a swiffer.
 
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Valerian

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No roots, no screaming,
Excuse me but Baby did scream at the end of the video before she ran away. Maybe it's not that audiable in the video??..


While I'm here, I'll write a quick update before going to sleep....
Btw, I noticed I didn't trim the video correctly and I don't know why, but I can't edit my post to swap the link to the correct version of the video - here it is (same video but correctly trimmed)

So far, like I said before, Baby keeps launching herself at Zack and keeps chasing him off the cat tree, the couch, basically anywhere he finds a spot to nap, she will chase him away and go lay in that spot herself.

I don't think they are friends, I think Baby keeps trying to boss him around and he doesn't really like her.

She keeps trying to groom him, but he won't let her? And then she starts fighting him. What's up with that? :/

I don't see a balance in their interactions.
When they are chasing, if she does the chasing she smacks him hard until he backs off or hides.
When he is the one chasing her, she just gives him a look (the crooked neck look lol) and he stops in that moment, turns around and walks away..
But if he does get more confident when they're wrestling, Baby will hiss at him often.
But at most they're trying to tolerate each other. Not sure how well that's going if one cat os forced to always keep on the floor and isn't allowed on higher places....is this a temporary thing or will she always treat him this way?

Anyway....tonight is the first night we're tryimg to not have them separated and see how it goes.
 

kakers

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The long version of the video you posted is actually a perfect example of balance in their play. One invites, the other responds, they go back and forth. Yeah he got a little too excited at the end, she voiced her displeasure and ran off. So she clearly communicated she's not OK with playing that rough and that's how they continue to learn how each other likes to play. It doesn't happen overnight. Cats also can get overstimulated very quickly so a "this is so much fun!" Can turn to "I am 100% beyond done with this" in an instant. They communicate that to each other in ways that don't always seem polite to us but that's normal communication for cats. Even ones who like each other!

It sounds like she is just asserting her dominance a bit letting him know "this is my home and your use of my things is by my approval." It's a very normal thing when introducing cats. You may find the balance of dominance goes back and forth as time goes on- or it may not but either way is perfectly OK. Most relationships have at least a small power imbalance even in humans. Cats are no different.

I strongly STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that "at most they're trying to tolerate each other." They absolutely would not play like in that video if they didn't like each other. Trying to tolerate each other would mean growling and hissing and posturing every time they bumped into each other. This is worlds apart from that. Perhaps if I think of it and cat catch it I'll be able to get a video of how my cats interact so you can get a better idea of just how positive the interactions between your cats are.
 
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Valerian

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The long version of the video you posted is actually a perfect example of balance in their play. One invites, the other responds, they go back and forth. Yeah he got a little too excited at the end, she voiced her displeasure and ran off. So she clearly communicated she's not OK with playing that rough and that's how they continue to learn how each other likes to play. It doesn't happen overnight. Cats also can get overstimulated very quickly so a "this is so much fun!" Can turn to "I am 100% beyond done with this" in an instant. They communicate that to each other in ways that don't always seem polite to us but that's normal communication for cats. Even ones who like each other!

It sounds like she is just asserting her dominance a bit letting him know "this is my home and your use of my things is by my approval." It's a very normal thing when introducing cats. You may find the balance of dominance goes back and forth as time goes on- or it may not but either way is perfectly OK. Most relationships have at least a small power imbalance even in humans. Cats are no different.

I strongly STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that "at most they're trying to tolerate each other." They absolutely would not play like in that video if they didn't like each other. Trying to tolerate each other would mean growling and hissing and posturing every time they bumped into each other. This is worlds apart from that. Perhaps if I think of it and cat catch it I'll be able to get a video of how my cats interact so you can get a better idea of just how positive the interactions between your cats are.
Thank you so much for the explained feedback!

The video actually starts (longer version) after Baby was the one constantly jumping at Zack for about 10 min with him hiding under the couch all that time, and then he decided to "go after her".
And it's usually like this, always Baby jumping at him, with him retreating or hiding and rarely jumping back at her. That's why I thought the balance was a bit off..

I would be very happy to see some videos of your cats interact :) I guess I've always seen only the ones where cats play woth each other really gently (youtube etc) so my expectations were really different from what's going on in our home 😆

Cats also can get overstimulated very quickly so a "this is so much fun!" Can turn to "I am 100% beyond done with this" in an instant.
That's what I meant in my previous posts when I said Baby looked fed up with Zack. She flips this switch really fast and often xD especially when being denied to groom him :p

I strongly STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that "at most they're trying to tolerate each other." They absolutely would not play like in that video if they didn't like each other. Trying to tolerate each other would mean growling and hissing and posturing every time they bumped into each other. This is worlds apart from that.
You're right, I probably didn't express myself correctly (I exaggerated) AND I was feeling really down about them yesterday when I was writing this post.. I do see they tolerate each other - they can eat from the same foodbowl (they have their each, but sometimes both go to the same bowl before I get the chance to place the other bowl down :)) amd there are times when they walk by each other without them jumping at each other.
I think what bothers me (so that I said they don't tolerate each other) was because Baby doesnt allow Zack on the cat tree or sofa if she sees him there, or will randomly chase him away from places when she sees him napping (chases him away and goes to lay on that spot herself, even if she usually never lays there)..and because he doesn't let himself be groomed by her at all, and is alway conscious about her whereabouts. Plus I have a family member expressing every time something isn't the best between them that it would be better to return Zack..so I really was feeling down yesterday when all of this was happening.. And I really needed a positive feedback from you guys so thank you so much for replying K kakers . I know you're going through a similar stage these days as I'm also following your thread and I'm so happy for you that things are turning in a really nice dorecrion for you all:purr:

Btw, our overnight was exhausting- Zack couldn't stay still for most of the night. He was having zoomies untill 6am when I got oit of bed and found he left me a big surprise tracking from the litterbox about 2 m through the hallway into the kitchen...
I remembered then, I heard Zack go into the litterbox sometime during the night amd when Baby heard him scratching she went to the bathroom. Soon after they both ran out - I assumed he went to pee and they started chasing after he was done. But...that wasn't the case x)..... I hope he just got startled and did a mess outside because of that and not because she didn't leave him alone until he would be done pooping..
This never happened before during the day and they both always use the same litterbox although there is another one in the basecamp.
He did go pee in his litterbox today and Baby again, followed the noise. This time I followed her and saw she did a bum wiggle and jumped to Zack while he was in the litterbox- but he was already done this time so all was good.... Do you think I should do something about this? Or is this also normal and something they will have to comunicate about or get used to?

Today I'm going to leave the door to basecamp open again and hope for the best..ir at least better than last night
 

kakers

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It sounds like your family member either simply doesn't like Zack or just doesn't get cat interactions. I can see why you would think it wasn't positive when Zack hides with Baby chasing. The thing with cats is some have very different play/hunting styles and one of those play styles is to hide then pounce! One of ours when playing with wand toys will go into a tunnel or behind a chair and watch for a bit before puncing out on the toy. Sounds like this is just Zack's play style, as well. I'd he didn't want to play he'd stay hiding instead of popping out back at her.

The litterbox thing is something to definitely keep an eye on. Make sure the boxes have more that one way in/out so they can't corner each other in and consider adding a third box if you have space to put one somewhere completely different.

It's not unusual at all for cats to not want to be groomed by another cat. Ours don't generally groom each other (only our oldest boys used to before before the oldest passed, and it wasn't often.) One will very occasionally and very briefly groom one of the others and it typically goes lick-lick-SWAT. With her doing both the licking and the swatting. Cats are weird lol

As long as nobody is getting hurt and neither is hiding constantly things are going OK.
 

kakers

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I was able to get a few videos while my husband was getting their dinner ready tonight. This is them getting along fairly well- Koa (brown) is our new kitty and Bastian (black and white) is the one she doesn't quite tolerate yet. Sometimes this kind of interaction results in her crouching and growling whole he stands tall yowling at her which occasionally ends in a rolling fight but thankfully not too frequently anymore. In these though you can see them swatting (claws out) the irritated swishing tails, her crouching and giving him irritated looks. And this is all pretty good for them! They're out together including overnight unless we're not home.

Koa says a lot with her ear positions too if you watch carefully. And you can see it's not likely to escalate by how quickly they go from "get the heck away from me" to adorably begging for food. This is what I think of with cats that are just trying to tolerate each other. They typically have quite tense body language around each other. But they're still doing just fine! Still just communicating their boundaries.

Video 1
Video 2
Video 3

perhaps I'll get some video soon of Koa and Splenda (white cat) when Koa is trying to get her to play. It's worlds different than her interaction with Bastian and unlike your kitties, Splenda ALWAYS rejects her attempts. Every single time.
 

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Honestly with these 3 cats the only issue is when 1 of the boys gets bored and hunts their sister. Then she gets all growly and if they catch her she does a high pitch meow….. then they break apart. 30-60 minutes later they are completely happy together. When I see one hunting her, I break them apart for a half hour and play with hand boy. Or I pull out electronic toys and distract them all.

They are littermates. Now the boys play fights may look like a real fight but it is just play. I included pictures of them just hanging out together. (Yes they get a birthday party! 🤣) So if they willing eat and sleep near each other, then you are golden!
Adorable photos :) Put a much needed smile on my face!
 
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