Seal Body Black Point - Super Dark Siamese?

[The Goodbye Bird]

I've known about this kind of cat for a while and while he isn't mine, he's a perfect example. Is this cat colourpoint? If he's got the Burmese gene, why does he still have blue eyes? It was my understanding that if you had both the Siamese and Burmese colourpoints, you'd be a Tonkinese and still have blue eyes, but I thought that was a LOT lighter than this is.

Is this just a black cat, that for some reason, is abnormally showing the colourpoint he's carrying?

I've seen these more than once and frankly I want one. This guy is just a little too fluffy for me.

 

[lutece]

My guess would be natural mink (seal mink). Sable (seal sepia) is normally a bit darker in color.

 

[Jcatbird]

Beautiful. My nephew has a Tonkinese that is slightly darker than the one pictured. The color can vary and they tend to darken with age. They can start out very light.
If you get one, be prepared for lots of wonderful purrsonality.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

It looks like the gene comes primarily from ragdolls... but... they normally aren't blue-eyed. Even if I find one, it will probably be this fluffy or fluffier. I love the ragdoll personality, but their coats... not so much.

I would give almost anything for a true-to-type, modern Siamese that was simply this dark, with the blue eyes, even if it could never be shown. I have a cat that's part Oriental Shorthair now, and I don't think this cat has ever made any shed. Ever. Even if I pull on the fur a bit, basically nothing comes out. Even a normal Domestic Shorthair, you give a little gentle tug and you get fur. As far as I can tell the cat and her inability to shed is magic. Must have more like this one.

 

[lutece]

Natural mink (seal mink) is a Tonkinese color. The sepia allele originally came from the Burmese breed, not the Ragdoll.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

Oh, good. That breed group have the OSH coat.

 

[StefanZ]

I would give almost anything for a true-to-type, modern Siamese that was simply this dark, with the blue eyes, even if it could never be shown.

I have a cat that's part Oriental Shorthair now, and I don't think this cat has ever made any shed. Ever. Even if I pull on the fur a bit, basically nothing comes out. Even a normal Domestic Shorthair, you give a little gentle tug and you get fur. As far as I can tell the cat and her inability to shed is magic. Must have more like this one.

Shredding when being pulled at, is really a defence in cat fights. Its no coincidence the fur is flying around in any serious cat fight (and sometimes in rough play).

So being THIS unable to shed as you describe, is really a long term disadvantage for the cat... The owner loves him, but it will be fragile in many mishappings situations...

Anyway, look out for the Tonkinese. Also, seal with white tends to darken up even more than otherwise... So, a seal tonkinese with white spot...

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

I'm wondering why this example cat has absolutely no white and is still this dark. I'm aware that there's really no way to count a cat's rings, and all the ages they say at a shelter are guesses, but he looks young. Cats that are old seem to have smaller cheek pads (the area they're always rubbing with) and his cheek pads are large.

The darkest ragdolls and tonkinese do not seem to have blue eyes.

As for the fur, I agree that the ultrashort coat does not protect them as well in a fight or keep them as warm. She did fight with my other cat once (because a strange cat came to the window and they redirected) and only the regular coat cat lost any fur. I keep my cats indoor-only so it should be fine.

 

[lutece]

Natural mink (seal mink) cats vary in shade, but can be quite dark. It's normal.

Eye color in mink colored cats can vary a lot between bluish and greenish tones, and the appearance of the eye color can also vary a lot depending on the lighting and photography settings. This particular cat's eye color is not very clear in the photographs.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

This particular cat's eye color is not very clear in the photographs.

It's blue. They take anything with blue eyes and put it as a "Siamese mix".

In addition, I have seen these kinds of cats before and they're blue-eyed, though I usually see a crystal blue and not a deep, azure blue. This could easily be because they haven't been bred for all the perfect factors to grant that perfect Siamese blue, but they are blue, not green or yellow or anything like that.

I just saw another one for adoption a while ago and I wish I'd grabbed it. When I find another one and get it you'll have all the pictures you want. I swear to you there's a super dark colourpoint that is a lot like the darkest Burmese but it grants blue eyes, and it's loose in at least two states. (I will post the states once I grab one. I don't want competition if this is really something brand new. )

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

Oh, and I think (not sure, but I am really starting to think this) that they are born black.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

Look, I found another. Definitely blue eyes. This is a new gene.

Adopt MAX on Petfinder

Natural super dark mink, probably one gene at the colourpoint locus, grants blue eyes.

 

[lutece]

It's normal for eye color to vary in cats with mink coat color. In fact, it is not easy for Tonkinese breeders to get the perfect balance of aqua eyes on a mink. Eye color will vary with lighting and photography, but it will also vary from cat to cat.

Light blue eyes, as in the cats you linked, do occur with natural mink (seal mink) coat color, and this is normal. However, you would not expect to see the deep blue eyes seen in some Siamese.

Here's information from the Tonkinese Breed Association.

Tonkinese Genetics: Color, Coat Pattern, Eye Color

Tonkinese Breed of Cats

www.tonkinesebreedassociation.org

"Normally Points have blue eyes, Minks have aqua eyes, and solids have green to yellow/green eyes. This is due to the effects of the heat sensitive alleles inhibiting eye pigment from developing. But it is possible for eye color to vary from what is the standard for the particular coat pattern. Eye color does not determine coat pattern and is sometimes not consistent with the standard.​

[...]​

There is enough variance in both the eye pigment and the strength of the effect of the albino series, so that some Tonkinese have eye color which is not consistent with their coat pattern. A natural point with a with aqua eyes may be mistaken for a champagne mink. Careful examination of the color of the points and body determine the coat pattern. Don't let a case of incorrect eye color fool you."​

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

He's so dark though. I can't see any instances of seal minks being this dark. And his eyes aren't green at all. That's not aqua - that is blue. The deep azure Siamese eyes are polygenetic because they breed for that. Any street cat you find with blue eyes (even a colourpoint unless you're amazingly lucky) will have light crystal blue.

He's just like the first cat I posted, only you can see his eye colour very, very clearly.

The darkest of the dark minks are the oldest ones, but old cats always curl up or lie on their bellies to keep their bellies warm, so one thing you will see is that even though the cat overall turns very dark with age (still not as dark as these two I've found) the coat will still be light on the belly.

Minks aren't this dark, and although Burmese are, the gene that creates the darkest Burmese does not grant blue eyes.

The only other thing I can think is that if these guys are simply black cats that carry colourpoint, they may grow up in such extreme hot weather that the normally recessive gene shows through and actually does restrict the colour generation a little, but would support my theory that they may be born black. If this is correct, they would probably keep their blue eyes, but would lose their seal bodies and turn black or almost indistinguishable from black when their hot environment is replaced with a normal environment.

It also might be why Florida, Texas, California (and now Utah) are the states I've seen one in.

 

[lutece]

Maybe you should contact the Tonkinese Breed Association and talk to them?
In my experience, Tonkinese breeders are a friendly, practical, and open minded group.

They would probably be able to help you with these questions:

1) is it within normal range for natural mink (seal mink) to be as dark as the cats in these pictures?​

2) is it within normal range for natural mink (seal mink) to have eye color like the cats in these pictures?​

To me, these cats appear to be within the normal range for natural mink (seal mink)... but I am not a Tonkinese breeder... the Tonkinese Breed Association may be able to give you a better answer than I can. They have a very good and usable web site, just click on the link I included above.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

I think I'll do that. Thank you for the link.

Honestly I may be overexcited, this may not be new, but I would love nothing more in the whole world than to be able to breed full-blooded modern Siamese in this gorgeous colour and eventually have it accepted as black Siamese.

 

[lutece]

Good luck!
If you are serious about this research project, you might also want to contact the owners of the cats and ask them if they would be willing to get cheek swabs on their cats to help you out? UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab is excellent and gives quick results, and you could find out for sure if these cats are minks. You would order a "single coat color test" for the colorpoint gene locus, $40 per cat tested, the owners could use cotton swabs and put the tests in the regular mail. Here is the link for the VGL:

Find Tests | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory

vgl.ucdavis.edu

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

I'm very, very serious. Not only is that dark, dark brown my favourite colour, but I've loved the Oriental Shorthair breed group ever since I was a tiny child watching Lady and the Tramp, and everything I discover about the breed group makes me love them more. Noisy, demanding, affectionate - they have everything.

What I hope to do is snag a whole cat, intact if possible. Then I'll use the test. And if it's not some new gene, oh well, it'll just be another rescue I'll love to death. I already passed over one on Craigslist because it was too fluffy and now I'm kicking myself. My last rescue (she recently died at 20) was only a medium hair and even though I brushed her sometimes twice a week, everywhere she lied down would become a blanket of cat hair. I loved her probably more than any cat I've ever had, but whoa, that coat was hard work. As near as I can tell she was part ragdoll. Best personality, but the hair... OMG the hair. She slept on my pillow.

 

[lutece]

The test is very easy to do, and it might help to give you the information you are looking for. The owners might be pleased to help you out. Science projects are fun