Rescued brother and sister kittens need help with behavior

[lola1962]

Hi there,

I am new to this site and am glad I found it!  I have had cats my entire life.  Last month I was devastated that I had to put my beloved 19 year old kitty to rest.  I swore I would never have another cat. HA!  My husband reminded me that we got our first kitty together as soon as we got off the plane from our honeymoon 24 years ago and we have never been without one.

I ended up rescuing a brother and sister who had been found together abandoned in October.  A wonderful volunteer fostered them and refused to let them be adopted separately, which worked for me.  The vet guesses that they are about 5 months old and we have been enjoying them for almost 2 weeks.   I need some advice.  If anyone can answer my questions, I would truly be grateful.

The male cat, Max, is social and is clearly the "big brother".  Ruby, is not as social, to put it mildly.  She is just starting to let me pat her when I feed her, but runs away even if I am just walking by.  She wants nothing to do with my husband and our grown daughters.  

I understand why she needed to be adopted with her brother because she will follow him and I think lets me pat her because she sees how comfortable he is with me.  On the other hand, if I try to give her a treat he jumps in front of her.  When I feed them, he will stop eating from his bowl and push her away from her bowl.  He occasionally will pin her down and lick her, like he is grooming her and if she is feeling confident enough to sit on the top perch of the scratching post he will hop up and knock her off.  

So my question is, how can I help her be more comfortable with me if he keeps interfering?  But if he is not around, she wouldn't attempt to take treats from me, etc.  She needs to have him present.  I would so love to have her come to me and sit calmly and let me pat her, but I am worried she will always be this jumpy.  I am prepared to do whatever I can and for as long as I need to.

I love these 2 little kitties so much and they really have put life back into our home.  Any advice would be awesome.  Thank you so much in advance.

Lola

 

[StefanZ]

His behavior seems to be more  dominant alpha against her, than just a well wishing protecting brother....

I shall think on this, but it may perhaps be a key.

Good luck!

 

[juliek1975]

I agree, sounds like dominance issues with the male.  My one cat Coconut used to do the thing with the food dish where he'd push my other cat out of the way and try to steal his food because Fritos always eats a little slower.  My solution was everytime he did this I'd take him out of the kitchen and lock him in the bathroom until Fritos finished eating.  It really only took a few times of this before he got the hint that stealing food was not acceptable.  Now when he's finished he will sit politely at his bowl and wait for Fritos to walk away before he eats what's left.  Of course this is if I'm standing nearby...lol.

 

[lola1962]

Hi Julie,

That sounds like a good plan.  I will give it a try tonight. I think you are right; he is the alpha male.  Because she is so timid, I thought that his presence was helpful since she came out of hiding when he was around. 

Thanks,

Lola

 

[cat nap]

so @Lola1962...i know not alot of time has passed since your last post, but is anything working out with your alpha cat Max, who reminds me of my 1 and 1/2 year old labrador dog....who loves to eat, is pushy and has no patience..(actually it sounds like i am describing myself now...lol)

Seriously, though, has the @juliek1975  ...advice worked....because it sounded pretty genious and it trained her cat.

my little black cat would push my senior cat out of the way and try to steal food, and because one was on senior food and the other on regular, i had to start feeding them on opposite sides of the room. Still i had to hover over and referee them...worse was when one finished faster(the young one)...so i just grabbed him or blocked him, but this was not good either because it caused the senior to just walk away.  the best was when they asked for food at different times, but this didn't really solve the issue.

 i am not much help, so good luck, and i hope its just that Ruby is more of a gentle, shy cat and she will eventually smack her brother, or else her brother will mature and grow out of his rough nature.

 

[lola1962]

Awe, thanks for the interest.  I did separate their bowls at meal time and she knocked him off the top perch a few times.  I was so proud of her!  But now we have another problem, which is why I think Max hasn't been bothering her. 

Last week when I tried to put her in the carrier for a vet visit she freaked out.  She cut my hands up pretty badly.  I ended up just taking Max to the vet.  I cried the entire time!  LOL  She was just starting to let me sit with her at meal times and let me pat her.  She even came to me purring looking for affection, but now she will not come anywhere me.  I was the one she was learning to trust.  I feel so bad that she is so scared of me. 3 weeks of working with her is completely gone.

I think she has that shy scared personality anyway.  Having the alpha male brother and the person she was beginning to trust offend her is going to affect her in a bad way. She is back to hiding.  It's worse than kids!

Guess I will be looking for more behavior advice!  Hope your kitties are well.

Lola

 

[di and bob]

I would like to know if they have been neutered and spayed? A 'tom', even at that age will definitely try to dominate the female, and his hormones would just be starting! A 5 month old female could possibly come into heat.   If they both are 'fixed', then you may have to step in and let him know it is NOT acceptable to boss his sister around, a very firm 'no' and removal from the area may give him the idea. My 'bully' is fine as long as I'm around, a no will stop anything going on, but I wish I had a camera for when I'm not there! Just saw the new post..... She WILL come around, I've lost a lot of trust with my ferals, to the point they would be gone for days. Don't worry she'll come to love and trust you again, bring tasty treats and talk softly to her. Good luck and bless you for your caring.

 

[lola1962]

HI, 

They are both spayed and neutered.  When I was looking to adopt, I came across these two and fell in love.  The foster mom would only let them be adopted out together.  They gave me a discount, now I know why. He has been the aggressor, but she has never been too far away from him, until now.

Last week when I tried to put her in the carrier she flipped out.  Since then she has been in hiding, so he hasn't had the opportunity to bully her.

I, too, wish I had a camera to see what goes on when I am not here!   

Thanks!

 

[cat nap]

yes that is a tough one, i do believe what @Di and Bob  said is true, she will come around, in her own time. To get one of mine into the carrier, i had to get everything ready in a room he did not see, wrap him in a blanket and then put him in .... potato sack like....i wish i had bought one of those carriers which open at the top, because i have to turn the  plastic screw things on each side to remove the top half of the carrier, which makes it easier to remove the cat...so the vet can examine him on the table.

. My senior cat would meow really loud all the way to the vet so i decided to not bring them together anyway, because i did not want the young guy to hear all that meowing.  It was easier on me too, because one seemed to be less stressful for me at the vet.

They would also do that spread eagle thing, and just struggle before getting in the carrier so now the towel wrap works, but only if they do not see it coming.

She may have flipped because she felt really scared, somebody else on TCS had a brilliant idea, where they got their cat to the vet by leaving a  laundry basket with blanket inside, but they gave him some sort of sedative from the vet first, and when he fell asleep they put another basket on top, closed it with zip ties and transported him that way.  It worked.  they had to cut off the zip ties at the vets and i am sure it looked weird but it was the only way to get the cat there. then the vet examined him. gave him his shots..back into the plastic laudry basket with holes,  and back home.  the owner just put him back downstairs and when he awoke he probably thought it was a dream. genious.  I just wish i could remember the TCS member's name.

your idea to start another thread is good, because you will get more responses. (sorry for the long post....i realize i should not be writing a novel)

 

[lola1962]

Cat nap, your suggestions have been great.  I may need to get my vet to give me something to sedate Ruby.  I tried to get her with the blanket, but she just runs away and hides.  

Needless to say, there has been no brother bullying; which is a good thing

 

[lamiatron]

 LOL

 

[lamiatron]

 LOL

sorry didn't specify who is who...tabby cat stealing food is Charlie, confused and distraught black kitty is Jet.

 

[cat nap]

Oh my gosh!! @Lamiatron....That photo is adorable....I see nothing wrong....LOL

. Where is tabby cat's bowl, though?

So.... sure, the black cat may be looking at you and thinking...."uhhh....aren't you going to help me out here....cause i don't like to fight before eating"...lol..

.

I think it is extremely difficult to "police" them all the time...so i will only do it while i notice bad behaviour that is in front of me......for everything else...i let them sort out their issues unless there is serious cat fights or injury.

@Lola1962...

"Last week when I tried to put her in the carrier for a vet visit she freaked out.  She cut my hands up pretty badly.  I ended up just taking Max to the vet.  I cried the entire time!  LOL  She was just starting to let me sit with her at meal times and let me pat her.  She even came to me purring looking for affection, but now she will not come anywhere me.  I was the one she was learning to trust.  I feel so bad that she is so scared of me. 3 weeks of working with her is completely gone."

Nahh....the three weeks are not gone....you just hit a "setback"....its the joys of having cats.  I think you may be right "they are worse than kids"....sometimes!..Hopefully kids would listen and behave...but from the friends i have with kids...Nope.  And just think....cats you can leave by themselves....kids you can't...lol....i shall have to start a thread someday on the differences and similarities of kids and cats.....but i have no kids so it would be an extremely short thread...lol.

I was just going to add that it would be good to trim her nails...but how the heck are you going to do that now?.

...i was just thinking that if you start when they are younger, than they get used to it more.  My old cat Spotty acts like i'm trying to kill him whenever i cut his nails....so i give him treats....but he gets so mad that he walks away from his favourite treats....and hides all day.  I am very careful about not cutting "the quick" of the nail...but he still cannot stand manicures.....

so forget about the nail thing....you may just have to wear work gloves because of those sharp teeth.

and it probably will just be a "Waiting Game"....she loves you and TRUSTS you.  YOU SAVED her life and that is AWESOME.  ....It took me over three weeks to just get the black cat,  to come into the house....so in my book ...you are well ahead of me.

.  She may never become a lap cat....but does that really matter?

 

[stewball]

I have whisky a 13 month old abandoned siamese and blighty an 8 month old black and white street cat.

20140131_225226.jpg

• stewball
• Feb 11, 2014

Blighty was a tiny 2 month old when I got him. 2 days off the street and terrified. He spent most of the time behind the sofa with whisky the other side. I had all blighty's stuff in my room. Food water bed and litter box!
I managed to get him into my room that night and he slept wrapped round my kneck. He didn't eat or drink for some time but then started and used his box. This carried on for quite some timed in my room. Then I started to let whisky in for short periods. At one point he walked over to blighty's food and the little chap growled and covered it with his arm. Then came the time when blighty was out all day and in my room at night. They played chase and whisky never hurt him. One day I had to leave them alone together as I couldn't find blighty. Everything was fine so he stayed out. I started moving his food water and litter box until everything was together. They are such good friends. They wash each other and play and fight but. ....I can't get blighty to the vet. I was able to for his op because whisky was in the cage too. He hates being picked up. Sits on my lap sometimes and that's a great honour. But I in the cage. No no. People come he hides. While whisky comes to greet whoever is here. Lets my grandchildren stroke him etc but also hates being picked up but is a lap cat!
Now the problem. As blighty started to grow, he's now bigger, he started showing who's boss. He pins blighty down and bites him. Blighty cries but he doesn't stop. Blighty lies on his back in submission but fights back but whisky is standing over him. Then he stops and they play together or sleep together or even both of them on my lap.
What can I do about the biting. There's real love thereu.
Sorry about the length.

 

[lamiatron]

 
Oh my gosh!! @Lamiatron....That photo is adorable....I see nothing wrong....LOL

. Where is tabby cat's bowl, though?

So.... sure, the black cat may be looking at you and thinking...."uhhh....aren't you going to help me out here....cause i don't like to fight before eating"...lol..

.

I think it is extremely difficult to "police" them all the time...so i will only do it while i notice bad behaviour that is in front of me......for everything else...i let them sort out their issues unless there is serious cat fights or injury.

@Lola1962...

"Last week when I tried to put her in the carrier for a vet visit she freaked out.  She cut my hands up pretty badly.  I ended up just taking Max to the vet.  I cried the entire time!  LOL  She was just starting to let me sit with her at meal times and let me pat her.  She even came to me purring looking for affection, but now she will not come anywhere me.  I was the one she was learning to trust.  I feel so bad that she is so scared of me. 3 weeks of working with her is completely gone."

Nahh....the three weeks are not gone....you just hit a "setback"....its the joys of having cats.  I think you may be right "they are worse than kids"....sometimes!..Hopefully kids would listen and behave...but from the friends i have with kids...Nope.  And just think....cats you can leave by themselves....kids you can't...lol....i shall have to start a thread someday on the differences and similarities of kids and cats.....but i have no kids so it would be an extremely short thread...lol.

I was just going to add that it would be good to trim her nails...but how the heck are you going to do that now?.

...i was just thinking that if you start when they are younger, than they get used to it more.  My old cat Spotty acts like i'm trying to kill him whenever i cut his nails....so i give him treats....but he gets so mad that he walks away from his favourite treats....and hides all day.  I am very careful about not cutting "the quick" of the nail...but he still cannot stand manicures.....

so forget about the nail thing....you may just have to wear work gloves because of those sharp teeth.

and it probably will just be a "Waiting Game"....she loves you and TRUSTS you.  YOU SAVED her life and that is AWESOME.  ....It took me over three weeks to just get the black cat,  to come into the house....so in my book ...you are well ahead of me.

.  She may never become a lap cat....but does that really matter?

Charlie's bowl was on the floor, and Jet's bowl is up top, because even when Charlie has a full bowl of food, he'll always want a taste of what Jet is having...even though its the SAME thing. lol he got creative and figured out a way to get to her. I had to capture it before i moved him lol

 

[cat nap]

Charlie's bowl was on the floor, and Jet's bowl is up top, because even when Charlie has a full bowl of food, he'll always want a taste of what Jet is having...even though its the SAME thing. lol he got creative and figured out a way to get to her. I had to capture it before i moved him lol

I knew he had his bowl around, so.... he is just one smart cat which has to make sure that mom gave Jet the same food....nothing wrong with making sure.  Jet has legs....so she can easily jump down to his bowl....she justs is more attached to her own. And maybe wants you to do everything for her....spoiled princess? maybe..or just smarter than any human....lol

I GIVE Charlie a "10" for great form in the ski jump or stretch....i mean "stretch to bowl competition". lol. what beauties.

Charlie! Charlie!

I have whisky a 13 month old abandoned siamese and blighty an 8 month old black and white street cat.
...
Blighty was a tiny 2 month old when I got him. 2 days off the street and terrified. He spent most of the time behind the sofa with whisky the other side. I had all blighty's stuff in my room. Food water bed and litter box!
I managed to get him into my room that night and he slept wrapped round my kneck. He didn't eat or drink for some time but then started and used his box. This carried on for quite some timed in my room. Then I started to let whisky in for short periods. At one point he walked over to blighty's food and the little chap growled and covered it with his arm. Then came the time when blighty was out all day and in my room at night. They played chase and whisky never hurt him. One day I had to leave them alone together as I couldn't find blighty. Everything was fine so he stayed out. I started moving his food water and litter box until everything was together. They are such good friends. They wash each other and play and fight but. ....I can't get blighty to the vet. I was able to for his op because whisky was in the cage too. He hates being picked up. Sits on my lap sometimes and that's a great honour. But I in the cage. No no. People come he hides. While whisky comes to greet whoever is here. Lets my grandchildren stroke him etc but also hates being picked up but is a lap cat!
Now the problem. As blighty started to grow, he's now bigger, he started showing who's boss. He pins blighty down and bites him. Blighty cries but he doesn't stop. Blighty lies on his back in submission but fights back but whisky is standing over him. Then he stops and they play together or sleep together or even both of them on my lap.
What can I do about the biting. There's real love thereu.
Sorry about the length.

@Stewball  ....i got a little confused by the ending....it was blighty on top of whisky or whisky on top of blighty?....no matter...as long as there is no injury....they still love each other.  They are some good looking cats....i would never have guessed one was from the streets....and that paw draped over whiskey....like hugging a friend....priceless picture.

did you read about the TCS member who transported her cat in the laundry basket with another laundry basket on top...it worked....and it was the only way to get him to the vet.  I will try to find that post or thread again..

 

[lola1962]

This is all great stuff.  I think the gloves would be a better option right now.  I can't catch her!  

When I feed them, I sit in between them and when he starts to get curious about her bowl of food, which is the exact same thing, I have been putting my hand in front of him and say, "no".

She stopped eating with Max after the carrier incident last Thursday, but she did eat with us this morning. Any slight move I made caused her to jump back.  I know she is not ready for me to pat her. As cat owners, we know how important it is to speak in a soothing manner and have patience!  

You have been helping me through this crazy time.  Your advice and time is appreciated.  I know she may never be a lap cat, but I want her to be happy.  

 

[stewball]

[quote name="cat nap" url="/t/271713/rescued-brother-and-sister-kittensneed-help-with-behavior#post_3s494305"]I knew he had his bowl around, so.... he is just one smart cat which has to make sure that mom gave Jet the same food....nothing wrong with making sure.  Jet has legs....so she can easily jump down to his bowl....she justs is more attached to her own. And maybe wants you to do everything for her....spoiled princess? maybe..or just smarter than any human....lol:kitty2:
I GIVE Charlie a "10" for great form in the ski jump or stretch....i mean "stretch to bowl competition". lol. what beauties. Charlie! Charlie!

@Stewball
 ....i got a little confused by the ending....it was blighty on top of whisky or whisky on top of blighty?....no matter...as long as there is no injury....they still love each other.  They are some good looking cats....i would never have guessed one was from the streets....and that paw draped over whiskey....like hugging a friend....priceless picture.
did you read about the TCS member who transported her cat in the laundry basket with another laundry basket on top...it worked....and it was the only way to get him to the vet.  I will try to find that post or thread again..
[/quote]

Whisky on top of blighty.
There are no injuries but he cries. They certainly do love each other.
I'm not in favour of sedating him alone and I doubt my vet would let me in any case. I'll try again oonish

 

[stewball]

Whisky on top of blighty.
There are no injuries but he cries. They certainly do love each other.
I'm not in favour of sedating him alone and I doubt my vet would let me in any case. I'll try again oonish

Soonish.

 

[rarepuss]

Hi there!

Intro!
I think you'll like my story. I too have a brother and a sister they are now three years old. Adapted at around three months the brother is a dominant male and much bigger than my little girl. My big boy is about 17 pounds and she's only 8 pounds. My boy is an Alpha cat. He is the most gentle loving always purring, like a dog follows me around the house just an incredible true lap cat. Always rubs his face in my face. My little girl has a beta type personality she is shy and very demure she will follow him around, She generally does not follow me. The breeder who I purchased them from said I must have them together I cannot have just one.

Love and affection!
The boy and the girl are both just incredible but it did take the girl a long time to come around. Because she came from a breeder she was never afraid of me or people. She comes when called she sits on my lap and never scratched or bit or did anything to me. Same with boy. With years, I would say around the second year, she completely on her own, will come and sit on my lap, even if my boy is not sitting on me at that particular time – that is the biggest breakthrough of all. She is not just following him, but is coming to me on her own free will now. They both sleep with me all night.

How we live!
They sleep together, they groom each other, they spend all their waking hours next to each other. But they do tussle together as well. He will have times when he will start by licking her, she will lick him, 10 min will pass, and then he will go on to biting her. When she doesn't like it she will hiss and run away. As soon as it's over literally in the next 10 seconds they are friends like nothing ever happened. Don't worry and don't try to console your little girl. I tried to help in the beginning and it only made things worse. The best thing to do is to give affection to the alpha male and the female, and disregard the little fights. Same with all sleeping spots, my boy will always want that exact spot where she is sleeping at that second. He will come and claim it, she will leave but again in just seconds later she will come back and nestle right next to him no issues at all. That's why everywhere they have a favorite spot, I have 2 places for them to sit so there is never a fight they can always sleep together. I never separate any small tussles they have, ever.

Food time!
Feeding time was very stressful for me in the beginning. Later on, her and I learned how to deal with his insane food aggression. What I do and how I trained them both is this. I prepare the food in the kitchen with the door closed. When the food is ready, I open the door, the little girl comes in and I set the plate for her in the kitchen. I take the second plate, I leave the kitchen and close the door. she's left in the kitchen to finish the food in the time that it takes her to eat - 15 minutes. his plate I set outside in hallway and he usually finishes in 60-90 seconds just a few big gulps. he will then patiently wait the next 15 minutes quietly until she finishes. I think he knows when she's done because he will come and get me to go and open the door. I only feed wet food so I don't have a problem of leaving dry out & uncontrollable eating throughout the day.

Vet visits!
Oh boy! Like others said you need to get a little better carriers. I have basket style carriers that open on top and I load cats from the top in. Visits are very tough, especially time home after the fact. He hates the vet and after the fact he redirects his aggression at her. There is literally nothing I can do about it, I usually lock her away in a room for about three hours. After that it takes him about a day to get over what happened at the vet. He will growl and hiss at her like he has never seen her in his life. Again this behavior is gone after a day or so and they are best friends all over again. One word of advice, if you ever take them in together to the vet, be very careful of having them out on the table together at the same time. I made that mistake once and he attacked her right in front of me & vet. It was ridiculous he was out of control.

Vet carrier catch!
Here's where feeding time memories come in really handy. I pretend to make food she comes into the kitchen I grab her. it's easy.

Conclusion!
In my view Beta personality cats would actually make amazing single cats for people. They are quiet and calm. But, Alpha cats are horrible single cats. Alphas demand nonstop attention, all the time, day or night. If my boy did not have my little girl, he would tear my home apart. I can see why cat people say adopt them together, it's for their and our well-being.

Give your situation time and give your little girl time to adjust. She will certainly come around. She will be your best friend in no time. As far as feeding goes, separate them that is the only thing that works for me. Make sure you have 2 litter boxes. My 2 are very particular about using one little box each. They even poop together it's so funny but they never go in the same box each one likes to use their own box.

Good luck! I'll post a pic later.