Reintroduction with cats - moving forward

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

Hello, we are in the midst of a reintroduction of our cats after a redirected aggression incident. We are at a point now where we've got a wire gate up and we let them see each other for about 30-45 minutes in the evening during mealtime. However, the aggressor cat won't stop STARING.

We feed them treats which alleviates it a little, but as soon as he's done he's back to staring. Playing is almost futile. We use a sight blocker and he paws it down to stare. Mind you, they have been doing sightseeing of each other for nearly a month now, so this isn't the first time he's seen him. We've removed the blanket now (per JG guidelines) and that's when the staring has begun.

I guess my question is, is all staring bad? Is he just curious? There hasn't been any hissing, spatting, growling, ears back or tails flicking so I know they are likely just curious, but this introduction process has taken years now (albeit, partially our fault - we travel a lot and we've been very, very slow because honestly, we are scared of a fight breaking out and ruining progress.) What does this staring mean? We should not move on to in-room introductions until the staring has stopped, or at least greatly reduced, right?

Any advice appreciated for moving forward. They are both on calming medicine, I have Feliway, we do sight and scent swapping, they have plenty of places to climb, etc. etc. We've done it all.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Is there any way you can get us a video clip of this staring? It might well just be interest, from what you are describing, but seeing it would really help.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

Yea! We got a video today. Although no staring or swatting today! I would say this is a great video but I’d love other opinions

 

[Biomehanika]

How old are the cats?

From the video, things look quite good to me, is this how things usually go with them or is this just a clip where they’re on really good behaviour? Some staring is totally normal, it’s when staring leads to hunting/attacking behaviour that’s it’s not good. I am just over 2.5 months into my intro and my two are with each other 24/7 now. They still stare at each other sometimes, the older one still hisses and growls sometimes, the younger one gets hyper and pounces on the older one sometimes, and they have gentle swatting matches sometimes…. But, despite my being concerned at first, it’s all normal and they *are* indeed friends now, who sleep together and groom each other sometimes now too, and enjoy each others company. It’s taken a long time to get here, but if I hadn’t let them progress in the introduction due to hissing, staring, ect. they’d still be separated right now. Cats are gonna cat and sometimes you just need to let them do that, as long as neither is getting hurt or too stressed.

You said this intro has been going on for years now? It’s quite possible they’ve been ready to take the plunge to the next step and it’s you who hasn’t been? From my recent experience, I notice things did tend to feel like they’d gone a step backwards once moving to the next stage, sometimes for a couple weeks. AKA you let them in the same room and suddenly there is more staring, hissing, ect. If this happens try not to be too discouraged and pay very close attention to their overall body language. Hissing while standing tall with ears forward means the cat is mostly fine. Hissing with ears pinned back while cowering is not, ect.

Also you said you are using feliway. I know it can be of great help, but in my case it was actually making things worse and my older girl become much more relaxed around the new cat once it was gone. If you feel things truly aren’t progressing after some more time maybe try removing it and see how things go without it.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

How old are the cats?

From the video, things look quite good to me, is this how things usually go with them or is this just a clip where they’re on really good behaviour? Some staring is totally normal, it’s when staring leads to hunting/attacking behaviour that’s it’s not good. I am just over 2.5 months into my intro and my two are with each other 24/7 now. They still stare at each other sometimes, the older one still hisses and growls sometimes, the younger one gets hyper and pounces on the older one sometimes, and they have gentle swatting matches sometimes…. But, despite my being concerned at first, it’s all normal and they *are* indeed friends now, who sleep together and groom each other sometimes now too, and enjoy each others company. It’s taken a long time to get here, but if I hadn’t let them progress in the introduction due to hissing, staring, ect. they’d still be separated right now. Cats are gonna cat and sometimes you just need to let them do that, as long as neither is getting hurt or too stressed.

You said this intro has been going on for years now? It’s quite possible they’ve been ready to take the plunge to the next step and it’s you who hasn’t been? From my recent experience, I notice things did tend to feel like they’d gone a step backwards once moving to the next stage, sometimes for a couple weeks. AKA you let them in the same room and suddenly there is more staring, hissing, ect. If this happens try not to be too discouraged and pay very close attention to their overall body language. Hissing while standing tall with ears forward means the cat is mostly fine. Hissing with ears pinned back while cowering is not, ect.

Also you said you are using feliway. I know it can be of great help, but in my case it was actually making things worse and my older girl become much more relaxed around the new cat once it was gone. If you feel things truly aren’t progressing after some more time maybe try removing it and see how things go without it.

Thanks for your response! The white one is about 9, the tabby 7. This was a good interaction between them and really right now the only way it gets “worse” is the tabby stares intently/will sometimes paw at the white cat. The pawing doesn’t seem aggressive, but it does scare the white one a little.
And for sure, I know we have been part of the problem. We ARE scared because we don’t know what lies ahead. So some staring is normal, you’d say? Do we interfere or just let their staring continue until they are tired? I am concerned about the hunting behavior. We did have them together for a little bit during this process, but tabby cat would continually stare and hunt white cat. We ended up separating again because things were too tense having tabby constantly on white cat.
I’ll keep that in mind about feliway

 

[Biomehanika]

How does white cat respond to being “hunted” — does tabby cat just run at him and back off playfully, or does he pursue him everywhere non-stop, causing stress to white cat? Is white cat trying to escape from him, or does he stand his ground? There really is a fine balance that you are going to have to find between what’s acceptable and what’s not in order to progress further. My two are 12 years old and 10 months old. The youngin’ hunts the older one sometimes, but once he “catches” her he just gives her a light swat and goes on his merry way. She either doesn’t care, responds with a hiss, taps him back, or once in awhile chases him back (playfully). It is all play to them, despite her sometimes grumpy responses. If she was stressed and trying to get away, cowering and yelping, ect, or he was being rougher, I’d be concerned, but besides the odd hiss she is quite unbothered so I let them at it.

Part of the process is desensitizing them to each other. The longer they spend together, the less excitable tabby cat will be when they see each other, and the less nervous white cat will be (if there is no real fighting, of course). If they only get that small window of 30-45 minutes per day to see each other the tabby will probably continue to be hyper interested, while the white one will continue to be a little on edge, so to move past that they need more time so that the presence of the other isn’t such a novelty. When you do let them together, if tabby man is overstepping boundaries, a very firm and loud “NO!” can usually help, and since there are two of you playing bodyguard should things get too rowdy it will be easier to intervene.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

How does white cat respond to being “hunted” — does tabby cat just run at him and back off playfully, or does he pursue him everywhere non-stop, causing stress to white cat? Is white cat trying to escape from him, or does he stand his ground? There really is a fine balance that you are going to have to find between what’s acceptable and what’s not in order to progress further. My two are 12 years old and 10 months old. The youngin’ hunts the older one sometimes, but once he “catches” her he just gives her a light swat and goes on his merry way. She either doesn’t care, responds with a hiss, taps him back, or once in awhile chases him back (playfully). It is all play to them, despite her sometimes grumpy responses. If she was stressed and trying to get away, cowering and yelping, ect, or he was being rougher, I’d be concerned, but besides the odd hiss she is quite unbothered so I let them at it.

Part of the process is desensitizing them to each other. The longer they spend together, the less excitable tabby cat will be when they see each other, and the less nervous white cat will be (if there is no real fighting, of course). If they only get that small window of 30-45 minutes per day to see each other the tabby will probably continue to be hyper interested, while the white one will continue to be a little on edge, so to move past that they need more time so that the presence of the other isn’t such a novelty. When you do let them together, if tabby man is overstepping boundaries, a very firm and loud “NO!” can usually help, and since there are two of you playing bodyguard should things get too rowdy it will be easier to intervene.

From what I remember when it was happening, it did make white cat nervous and tabby would wrestle him and I know white cat didn’t like it. No crying or screaming or ugly cat noises but it didn’t usually last long. He was pursuing him quite a bit, enough for us to be uncomfortable with them being together supervised.
So instead of the 30-45 minutes a day, should we up it? Have room time? We are indeed nervous. We just want our normal lives back

 

[Biomehanika]

Yes I would up the time they spend together each day, even if that just means more through the barrier time to start with. Personally I would tire tabby cat out with a long play session and then, when they are both in relaxed moods, attempt a no-barrier supervised visit, preferably somewhere with enough open space that neither of them feels confined or “trapped”, so maybe in the main living area of your place.

 

[Alldara]

Yea! We got a video today. Although no staring or swatting today! I would say this is a great video but I’d love other opinions

The clip looks amazing!
One thing I would say is if he's full on staring, try and get him to fully turn away from the other cat while taking the treat.

Yes interference when they stare. A treat toss or the like. I do NOT recommend yelling or clapping as startling one could lead to a fight.

Start with short no gate time. Eat together and put one away. Then eat together and a little bit of play and put one away.

Some cat-tv on your phones could let them settle in the same room and do something "together", if they're inclined to watch it. Our window with the bird feeder in it was amazing for cat introductions.

If they have any dry food, are you giving that through enrichment? This is great because it works the brain and builds confidence in both cats. Both aggression and cowering can be signs of anxiety or fear in cats, depending on the disposition of the individual cat.

Are they playing at the gate yet?

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

The clip looks amazing!
One thing I would say is if he's full on staring, try and get him to fully turn away from the other cat while taking the treat.

Yes interference when they stare. A treat toss or the like. I do NOT recommend yelling or clapping as startling one could lead to a fight.

Start with short no gate time. Eat together and put one away. Then eat together and a little bit of play and put one away.

Some cat-tv on your phones could let them settle in the same room and do something "together", if they're inclined to watch it. Our window with the bird feeder in it was amazing for cat introductions.

If they have any dry food, are you giving that through enrichment? This is great because it works the brain and builds confidence in both cats. Both aggression and cowering can be signs of anxiety or fear in cats, depending on the disposition of the individual cat.

Are they playing at the gate yet?

Great advice here! I like the cat TV idea.
Yes we usually always give dry food and hard treats in feeder toys. One of them likes the feeder toys more than the other, but they will both use them.
They are both on prozac and the tabby is also on lorazapam, so I believe it's helped with his anxiety and his need to lash out a lot.

As far as playing, tabby will paw but it sort of makes white cat jump back a bit. Sometimes the pawing is intense. They have both been able to play at the gate together individually with toys, but if there is a lot of movement tabby cat will pounce at the gate, again scaring white cat.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

What I'm NOT seeing with this video is "full-on staring." I'm seeing a cat who is very interested in the other cat, which is normal and generally good, but not one who is fixated. Let him look a bit longer. His body language is actually pretty good. Cautious, but (again) not fixated.

I think you are doing better than you fear.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

What I'm NOT seeing with this video is "full-on staring." I'm seeing a cat who is very interested in the other cat, which is normal and generally good, but not one who is fixated. Let him look a bit longer. His body language is actually pretty good. Cautious, but (again) not fixated.

I think you are doing better than you fear.

Yes this was a particularly good session with hardly any staring!! Just the first video I could get. There generally is though, I figured he was a mix of cautious/curious and that's way better than some of what I read, with hissing and growling and such.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

IF you can grab one with the staring, that would help. But don't make yourself crazy over it. A cat in full "stalking mode" is pretty obvious. The body is held very low, the head is generally somewhat outstretched, ears are back when an attack is immenent, whiskers flat against the cheeks, and you can SEE the tension in the body.

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi. You are doing great. Just a couple of tips.
Try to remove yourself a little bit. So, instead of hand feeding the treat, gently toss it. Don’t be right there with them. It is great that you have been, but in order to progress, they have to be able to start to get an idea of handling things on their own. You will still be there within that throwing distance. Also, don’t talk to them during this for now.

So, let’s see how that goes for a week.

They look fantastic. The state is more curious but could change in an instant. So keep up with what you are doing. Continue making them think that when they see each other good things happen. But try now to let them think it happens on their own without humans ( except for the treat tossing)

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

IF you can grab one with the staring, that would help. But don't make yourself crazy over it. A cat in full "stalking mode" is pretty obvious. The body is held very low, the head is generally somewhat outstretched, ears are back when an attack is immenent, whiskers flat against the cheeks, and you can SEE the tension in the body.

Here is a video of the staring. He will go on like this for minutes at a time.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

Hi. You are doing great. Just a couple of tips.
Try to remove yourself a little bit. So, instead of hand feeding the treat, gently toss it. Don’t be right there with them. It is great that you have been, but in order to progress, they have to be able to start to get an idea of handling things on their own. You will still be there within that throwing distance. Also, don’t talk to them during this for now.

So, let’s see how that goes for a week.

They look fantastic. The state is more curious but could change in an instant. So keep up with what you are doing. Continue making them think that when they see each other good things happen. But try now to let them think it happens on their own without humans ( except for the treat tossing)

That’s some good advice. I think when we do feedings we’ll just walk away and let them do their thing. Tossing treats is a little tough because they will pounce on them and spook each other.

 

[Alldara]

Here is a video of the staring. He will go on like this for minutes at a time.

Yes you can see he is staring and not watching and his tail confirms he is agitated. Then you break the stare gently (great job btw!) and he does some lip-licking indicating that hers nervous.

So now we know he's nervous! You can build his confidence with comfort.

You're videoing then so this is not a commentary on the video, just some tips you might already be doing.

- put yourself so you are between him and the gate, your legs stretched out along the gate. This shows him you are also a barrier he can trust and you're also showing relaxed body language in front of the other cat.

- since he was sitting on something, I would have tried running the wand part of a wand toy under just the edge of the cardboard to see if he might play with the wand and get some of that nervous energy out. Playing in front of the other cat also helps to build confidence.

- play some cat calming music (I can't hear any sound from the video so I don't know if you are ...not your videos fault this is a me thing.) Helps the cats be less on edge for every little sound. I have one with purring I'll share with you.

- perhaps try adding some catnip to the cardboard?

 

[Alldara]

These are some of our first intros with Ghost. You can see my boys did some staring too. Magnus has a similar expression to your boy. Curious but nervous. Ghost was very interested and pressed right up against the gate. He was the new cat here. Then, Cal thought it best he should hide under the carpet and sneek towards the gate. You can see I have the wand poking under there to distract him.

I'll also add, do a lot of narrating to the cats. Keep your wording consistent and they will learn what they mean. "Wow, NC walking. Hi NC! RC watches NC. Oh nervous. It's okay RC. NC friend." That kind of thing. You'll feel silly at first, but I've gotten good reviews from other families on this as well.

Here's the music we used during intros:

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

When do you determine when we can move forward to in-room introductions? When they can be comfortable around each other after an hour? It seems like it always takes them a bit of time to get adjusted and then they'll do their own thing on the opposite side of the gate. I just don't know how to decide when the timing is good.

 

[Jessica_Merlin_Meep]

These are some of our first intros with Ghost. You can see my boys did some staring too. Magnus has a similar expression to your boy. Curious but nervous. Ghost was very interested and pressed right up against the gate. He was the new cat here. Then, Cal thought it best he should hide under the carpet and sneek towards the gate. You can see I have the wand poking under there to distract him.

I'll also add, do a lot of narrating to the cats. Keep your wording consistent and they will learn what they mean. "Wow, NC walking. Hi NC! RC watches NC. Oh nervous. It's okay RC. NC friend." That kind of thing. You'll feel silly at first, but I've gotten good reviews from other families on this as well.

Here's the music we used during intros:

Thanks for the photos! I understand now that the staring is natural and to let them be cats more. I don't understand cats (I'm a dog person, lol), so it helps to learn more about them.