Redirected aggression - very stressed

[Furballsmom]

Some people are telling me this is impossible to fix and one will have to go

It's absolutely not impossible to fix. A ArtNJ has you on the right track, I promise. Ignore anyone else who has negative input about this including your vet, and focus only on a positive outcome. Your cats are sponges for your emotions, and how you feel can make a very big difference in how you approach this as well as in how they perceive their world.

Also try some cat music - there's Spotify, youtube and Alexa, RelaxMyCat and MusicForCats as sources which can help mitigate any residual feline tension.

I apologize but I ran out of time and wasn't able to read every post so I don't know where this aspect stands. You mentioned earlier that you were wondering about removing the stray cat from outside?

Not only remove him/her permanently (s/he could be sitting in the next yard over and the wind could blow the scent right to your door), but do your best to remove all scents of that cat from your property. Lemon scented furniture polish can be used fairly effectively. Cut up some waste cloth, spray the pieces liberally and scatter them right in front of that door and also around the yard. These will need to be maintained/freshened.

I'm sending all sorts of positive thoughts and vibes!!

 

[AndreaFiona]

Thanks for your advice, and sorry I haven't replied. It has been a busy week. Ok so where we stand now are that the cats can easily eat treats from under the door together and will even bat paws back and forth in a casual and friendly manner. I can also put both in a carrier while the other runs loose with no hissing and they will just peer in quickly and resume eating treats, milling around, etc.

The aggressor (Ivy) acts a bit weird when Fiona is in the carrier. She looks a bit TOO long and a bit concerned (I hope I am reading her correctly). So I keep it short and separate them.

The long weekend is almost here and I will be home most of the time which is a bit stressful for me as I am exhausted and just want to relax. I don't plan on pushing much this weekend and will keep them separated mostly with a few carrier times and more treats under the door.

Does this sound ok? I will watch for the stray and I guess I can buy a trap if needed but I just can't afford much more money sadly. Because of COVID I don't think the usual rental places are renting things (the only places I could find renting them around here were animal control and they suspended that with covid).

Andrea

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!

Does this sound ok?

It does, because while often we're almost totally focused on the cats and their emotional states, yours matters just as much

You could try rescues/shelters and see if you could borrow one possibly.

 

[AndreaFiona]

Just an update. I have put Ivy (the aggressor) on Prozac. She’s on day 9 of taking it. The cats are still separate but we have many interactions throughout the day. Usually when I am home in the evening I have Ivy in a cat carrier on the couch beside me (with the door open) and Fiona sits on my lap right beside her. Fiona will even go in the carrier and greet Ivy and they will groom.

In open spaces though both are slightly nervous of each other. Tonight a car outside revved really loud and both panicked. Ivy dove under the coffee table and Fiona took off. However she quickly came back and approached Ivy like a Halloween cat. Huge pupils, poofed fur and skittering sideways. Ivy did not respond. I picked up Fiona and she immediately relaxed. I put her in the bathroom for awhile and put Ivy back in the carrier with the door closed. Fiona came back out and was relaxed with Ivy and greeting her through the carrier door.

Is this something that will go away with time do you think? Im not sure if I prevented a giant fight by picking up Fiona or if Ivy was just never going to respond (thank you prozac).

 

[Furballsmom]

That halloween cat pose can often be an invitation to play, which is what I think may have been happening here since she relaxed so quickly when being picked up.

I think you're doing a great job, and they're lucky to have you. I think over time they will be ok

 

[klunick]

That halloween cat pose can often be an invitation to play, which is what I think may have been happening here since she relaxed so quickly when being picked up.

I think you're doing a great job, and they're lucky to have you. I think over time they will be ok

I often wonder if the halloween cat pose with kittens is involuntary. The first time Gracie did it, she had a look on her face like, "Uh Mom, what is happening to me??!!" and Boone was looking at her like, "Girl, what the heck is wrong with you??"

 

[AndreaFiona]

Hi everyone, an update 3 months later. My cats are still separated but we are getting close (I hope). I ended up hiring a behaviourist and she has been wonderful. I had a follow up call with her last night and she feels my cats are actually ready to be together full time but I am not quite ready (and that is ok).

The cats are separate most of the day but are together (with no barrier) for 3 times a day for a shared meal. Each day I extend the time of these get togethers. Tonight we did 30 min.

I am nervous to just let them loose 24/7 as still they can be a bit spooky when loud external sounds happen (motorcycle etc). My goal is to have them loose together at least during the day by Christmas. My behaviouralist says that will be no problem at all.

I can’t believe how long this took but I know my personality was a factor too.

I wish there were more written case studies etc about this, especially for this final part before complete reintroduction. I feel like I’m making up the rules as I go but so far so good.

 

[ArtNJ]

Thanks for sharing the good news! If you don't mind sharing a bit more, what did the behaviorist have you and the cats doing? Always on the lookout for new tips, like your stained glass stickers (great idea there).

 

[AndreaFiona]

Honestly a lot of it was what you folks told me here as well various sites and articles about reintroduction. By the time I contacted her (beginning of November) I was stuck in a rut with the cats totally separate but eating shared meals with a cracked door in between them. I didn’t really know how to move to the next step (I am a panicker).

She met with me via Zoom and I showed her my house, setup and where “the scene of the crime” happened. She encouraged me to begin with a baby gate and to start pushing the cats to interact but in a safe and controlled way.

She has basically acted as my support and pushed me to proceed when I was scared. As an outside party she could see when my cats were ready. I regularly sent her videos of their interactions and she would comment with feedback on their behaviours and body language.

She also had me drastically increase their activity with play (separate at this time) and encouraged me to clicker train (which i haven’t done yet).

I honestly feel I would still be at the “feeding with the door cracked” step if it weren’t for her.

I have also changed a few things at the “scene of the crime” to help refresh the area in my cats’ minds. This is my one remaining worry...that being in this room will trigger them again but she feels confident it won’t and she said worse case scenario....if it does then we just move back a step and it’s ok.

I really appreciate everyone’s support. This group, my behaviourist, etc. I know I am not out of the woods yet but I do feel like I’m on the home stretch.

And yes she also liked my window cling idea and mine are still up!

 

[AndreaFiona]

Sadly I spoke too soon! We have had a few incidents and have had to dial things back a bit.

My cats seem totally fine together in close proximity, however when one is a distance away they have had several incidents of one or the other looking startled and then both poof up and will start a stare down. I was able to pick one up and remove her every time except for one time. The k e time ended in a chase and they ran upstairs. Interestingly the aggressor stopped at the top of the stairs and didn’t go further so no harm (except fright) was done. I picked her up and separated her at this point.

We are sort of in a holding pattern now where they are separate most of the time except for 3-4 times a day when they are together loose. I am working on timing these sessions so I can have hope that things are improving by seeing the times get longer. Today one session lasted 9 minutes and the others were 5 and 6. I usually end it when I see Fiona getting nervous or Ivy getting “stare-y”

The other issue is the dining room which is where the initial incident occurred. I changed some things around in there (new cat tree, new mat, new cardboard cat scratcher) to hopefully help them not associate the room with what happened. I am also able to feed them in this room together or dole out treats to them together. However if I am not standing there and Fiona wanders in, Ivy does tend to stop and stare and think about going in to I assume do something negative. I keep eagle eyes on her when they are loose though and so far have been able to distract or pick her up and end the session if she can’t be distracted.

I would love anyone’s words of advice or even just encouragement. This is taking so long but I am trying to just keep positive and keep going.

Thank you!

 

[FeebysOwner]

What incidents? Any real fighting? Or just stare downs? I think your anxiety is playing a role in their behavior. You are on constant guard, and they will sense that. Is Ivy still on Prozac? Do you even let them interact physically at all before you remove one of them from the area? If not, you are probably just dragging things out because you are not truly letting them really interact to see how bad it might - or might not - get.

If you are really worried about there being a bad fight between them, then be prepared with a large cardboard piece that you could easily place between them if separation is needed. Then, shoo away the aggressor in order to separate them completely.

I apologize if I missed something, but I tried to review the entire thread, and the most recent posts do not suggest anything but 'irritation' between the two.

 

[AndreaFiona]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your honestly. Your opinion is exactly that of my behaviourist. She feels from watching videos of them that there are no major signs of concerns and she feels they are ready to be together.

Yes Ivy is still on Prozac but I have weaned her slowly from 10 mg a day to 5 mg. I will keep weaning her down but will maintain her at 5 for a couple weeks to make the weaning off slow.

My cats are allowed to interact but truthfully it’s only in situations where I am comfortable. For instance in my kitchen. They have been 100% reliable there so I will even not supervise them there while I prepare their food, empty dishwasher etc. I have seen them groom each other and sniff bums, etc.

And to answer, no there have been no physical incidents, just stare downs and poofs and the one chase. I am anxious about another fight as they run so fast I can’t catch them or keep up.

I would appreciate any advise based on this? So if I do their next get together tomorrow am and say a stare down or poof happens, should I just observe and see what happens? I truly appreciate your words of wisdom and totally agree my anxiety is an issue.

My behaviourist said if I am hovering too much and feeling nervous I should start quietly narrating what’s going on and that should help make them feel less weirded out by me being nervous.

Thank you! I’m more than happy for any tough love. My main goal is to keep both cats and end this separation nightmare.

 

[FeebysOwner]

My cats are allowed to interact but truthfully it’s only in situations where I am comfortable. For instance in my kitchen. They have been 100% reliable there so I will even not supervise them there while I prepare their food, empty dishwasher etc. I have seen them groom each other and sniff bums, etc.

So, if you are comfortable, they seem to be comfortable. See a theme? Try another room, maybe offer some treats, just to set the tone?
If you have someone who these cats know, perhaps invite them over and try to let the two cats interact, so you have someone to help you if there is a skirmish. It is another way to help distract you a bit from obsessing over their behavior, but also would make you feel more comfortable about intervening if necessary. Any cat lover friends? Those would be the best. The cats batting at one another (claws in), hissing, even growling, isn't necessarily going to mean a dead-on fight.

Ever considered calming music for you - and them - in these cases? Some music can calm cats, as well as their owners.

I don't blame you for wanting to be there to watch over their interactions - I wouldn't let them be together at this point without being present either. But, it is all about 'balance'.

 

[AndreaFiona]

Ok thank you. I will try turning a blind eye in another room tomorrow.

I can’t really have anyone over due to Covid (we are under lockdown here) and also my cats were feral and they really only like me. If I have cat savvy people over they will eventually approach them but it takes hours.

What would you do in case of a stare down? Let it progress a bit or immediately separate?

I worry that if I let too many skirmishes happen we will reach a point of no return where there is no hope of reintroduction? My behaviourist says my cats aren’t even close to that but that is my fear.

The music is a good idea. I can try that out.

 

[ArtNJ]

The ability of cats to express stress without charging at each other is the clearest sign that no one wants to fight. So watching them together for a few hours and seeing that they don't fight is about as reliable an indicator as there is. Certainly there are other signs of serious stress like screaming, yowling, howling, arched backs and puffy tails, those warrant some extra time watching or maybe even separation, but even those dont always mean a fight is coming. If all you see is staring and some hissing, thats nothing.

 

[FeebysOwner]

What would you do in case of a stare down? Let it progress a bit or immediately separate?

A ArtNJ has explained it for the most part. You just need to find a way to pretend you are not watching, while you are watching (tricky, I know?!). I would let the stare down progress a bit.

 

[AndreaFiona]

Thank you both. Ok I will work on this.

To help me understand.....this reintroduction process is to help them realize they are friends and won’t hurt each other correct? And to reinforce positive interactions to help override the memories of the bad interactions from the incident.

When Ivy starts staring or charges towards Fiona in the dining room, is this a fear response or anger? Why does she do that? Is it aggression or is it more that she is afraid and reacting defensively?

I understand Fiona’s actions a bit better. She acts defensively as she was the one attacked so she is hesitant in case it happens again.

Why would both be friends in my kitchen but if one is several meters away they both act spooked of each other?

I’m just trying to understand them a bit more.

 

[ArtNJ]

A reintroduction process is to get as much stress out as possible. It can't make them remember they are friends, but if the stress is gone they may proceed back to friendship. But a reintroduction process isn't magic, some stress will often be left. You have some stress left, clearly, but thats ok. As long as they don't appear to want to fight, time together should help them work past it. So you watch for a while. Then you progress to letting them be together while you are in the other room doing stuff, which will give you the flexibility to give them more time together. If everything continues to go fine, with nothing more than some hissing, letting them be together when you are sleeping would be a final step. There is no specific timing for any of that, its a judgment call.

Staring while in an alert posture I would usually equate to like being on guard duty, which is a routine sign of uncertainty and stress. Charging or charge swatting can sometimes be a "get away I need more space" thing. Its a less happy thing, and warrants more caution, but doesn't necessarily indicate a fight is likely. You don't actually have that now, right?

 

[FeebysOwner]

To help me understand.....this reintroduction process is to help them realize they are friends and won’t hurt each other correct? And to reinforce positive interactions to help override the memories of the bad interactions from the incident

Bottom line - yes.

When Ivy starts staring or charges towards Fiona in the dining room, is this a fear response or anger? Why does she do that? Is it aggression or is it more that she is afraid and reacting defensively?

Likely fear response. She has learned to fear their interactions, and some cat react to it by being on the offense (flight or fight).

Why would both be friends in my kitchen but if one is several meters away they both act spooked of each other?

Again, you are possibly making the difference. You are more relaxed in the kitchen, and so are they.

 

[AndreaFiona]

Ok thanks. I appreciate your replies. To answer you, Art, I had one instance of charging. When Fiona went into the dining room, Ivy watched for a while and then slowly got up and started walking over. Fiona notices and crouched and started hissing and Ivy charged her. They both ran upstairs but Ivy didn’t proceed past the top stairs. Fiona ran into a bedroom but Ivy stayed at the top of the stairs. I walked up and picked her up and separated them. Ivy was all puffed but she unpuffed and relaxed when I picked her up. Fiona actually came down right after and was fine with me (Ivy was separated at this point).

This also started to happen today but I just grabbed her once I saw her starting to walk towards her before this could repeat.