Raw Kitty Vomit, Then Doing Fine With Canned?

[1 bruce 1]

I am afraid the day is getting closer - start purring and hissing toward human

Thanks again for all your advice, I think I will take DEEP breath, continue with canned and bird raw for now (she is not really a fun of duck but ...), continue my experiment with bone broth (oh boy, it was smelly cooking meat!!) and goat milk (not started yet), see what will happen.

And remember, your vet is just a phone call away!
Best of luck and please let us know how things go

 

[CHIKITTIES]

Thanks everyone! It is amazing to receive so many replies in such a short period of time. I definitely feel better now

Re bone %, I try to make 7-8% for bird recipe. Rabbit comes 10% and Pork is quite low, approx. 5%. When I re-introduced raw, she was a bit hesitant and usual topper (pure bite or CatManDoo salmon) didn't work well, so I added S&C Chick Chick and almost immediately noticed "output" difference ...

I am not adding extra organ except liver. Use Chicken heart and Chechen/Turkey Gizzard and (before this happened) both kitties handled heart and Gizzard pretty good.

They wake me up when they need (either bored or need a little bite). I don't want to give dry food, might try leaving S&C or Pure bite...

Thanks again for all your advice! I will update in next couple of days!

 

[lisahe]

Thanks everyone! It is amazing to receive so many replies in such a short period of time. I definitely feel better now

Re bone %, I try to make 7-8% for bird recipe. Rabbit comes 10% and Pork is quite low, approx. 5%. When I re-introduced raw, she was a bit hesitant and usual topper (pure bite or CatManDoo salmon) didn't work well, so I added S&C Chick Chick and almost immediately noticed "output" difference ...

I am not adding extra organ except liver. Use Chicken heart and Chechen/Turkey Gizzard and (before this happened) both kitties handled heart and Gizzard pretty good.

They wake me up when they need (either bored or need a little bite). I don't want to give dry food, might try leaving S&C or Pure bite...

Thanks again for all your advice! I will update in next couple of days!

I'm glad this thread has given you some ideas, CHIKITTIES! I forgot one of Edwina's favorite vomiting methods: the "I'm so excited" barf. She did one of those this morning. These are regurgitations within an hour of a meal. They almost always occur at times when she's especially worked up. She likes to try to poach her sister's food (I don't go into detail about how this plays out!) and gets very agitated, almost frantic, about that, particularly if the door to Ireland's dining room is slow to open. My husband feeds the cats first thing in the morning and said Edwina was particularly wound up today. Our cats came to us as underfed, scrawny ten-month-old kittens and Edwina has never been able to shake her food insecurity.

I guess that if regular cat fur could cause hair gastritis so could rabbit fur! This issue with hair is relatively new with Edwina, too, and I wonder if it's related to decreased motility, due to age, something our vet mentions at nearly every annual appointment. I think she likes to prepare people! (Our cats are six.)

And bone, yes, that might have been me. Or maybe another Lisa, @lisamarie12. It's our other cat, Ireland, who's had the constipation problem; I'm hoping that cutting back on their freeze-dried foods will help.

As for leaving out some dry food: if you're at all concerned about bone, I'd definitely suggest something like Pure Bites over Stella & Chewy's, which seems very bony. (I don't think they release their figure on bone percentage -- they're fairly secretive.) The phosphorus figures they gave me some years ago were crazy high (I don't remember exactly but something in the range of 3-4% dry matter!) which would bear that out. Caveat: their formula has changed multiple times since then. (Though their chicken recipe still starts with chicken with bone.) There is one dry food that sounds worth checking out: Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein chicken. I'm not a fan of dry food at all but if Edwina had some self-control, I'd gladly leave a little of that out at night. It's a very good recipe.

So yes, deep breath for both of us! I think it's time to give Edwina her replacement meal so Cat Catering needs to whip something up. And we both have to work!

Most important, your photo is great -- Pila and Saf are beautiful cats!

Good luck with Pila's food and let us know how things go.

 

[daftcat75]

He's built like a linebacker and has the mouth of a sailor

Just picturing this cat wandering the house, swearing up a storm and telling dirty jokes.


CHIKITTIES ,

1. If the vomiting is managed through diet, e.g. you recognize that raw is problematic and the canned is not, then you've got a stable place to fall back on while you figure out the raw. If you lose that stable place, if she starts barfing on canned food, I would insist on refreshing the bloodwork and getting an ultrasound (because bloodwork can only tell so much.) Chronic issues have to start presenting somehow. "She has always been healthy" or "her bloodwork looked great in June" isn't as important as how she's doing now. Hopefully these are just isolated episodes and you can learn the triggers.

2. Which brings me to the food journal. I think you're already on top of this. When I was trying to stabilize Krista's IBD and learn the triggers, I started keeping a food journal (a Google Sheet actually) where I could track what I fed, when I fed it, how much she ate, and how it treated her on the transit. I used a lot of colors for foods, reactions, and even her poops so I could tell how regular she was. Most entries were just an amount and a color and often a quick note about her appetite and attitude. The food journal not only helped me spot patterns but also served as reassurance, when things went sideways, that these episodes never lasted very long, and she would right herself again soon enough.

3. Bone broth! The more I read about this, the more I want to stick a funnel in Krista's mouth and start pouring. I can sometimes get her to lick up a small amount if I cover it in powdered tuna flakes or powdered liver treats or I might be able to hide a small amount in her food (1 tsp.) If your cats will drink this, either on its own or in their food, this will be so good for them, and it may even settle Pila's gut.

You're already feeding high quality canned, making your own raw, feeding bone broth, and keeping a diary. You're way ahead of the game when I read a vomiting cat thread. Run simple trials like eggshell vs bone or single proteins and keep notes. One change at a time. You probably already know all of this! You've got this.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

I'm glad this thread has given you some ideas, CHIKITTIES! I forgot one of Edwina's favorite vomiting methods: the "I'm so excited" barf. She did one of those this morning. These are regurgitations within an hour of a meal. They almost always occur at times when she's especially worked up. She likes to try to poach her sister's food (I don't go into detail about how this plays out!) and gets very agitated, almost frantic, about that, particularly if the door to Ireland's dining room is slow to open. My husband feeds the cats first thing in the morning and said Edwina was particularly wound up today. Our cats came to us as underfed, scrawny ten-month-old kittens and Edwina has never been able to shake her food insecurity.

I guess that if regular cat fur could cause hair gastritis so could rabbit fur! This issue with hair is relatively new with Edwina, too, and I wonder if it's related to decreased motility, due to age, something our vet mentions at nearly every annual appointment. I think she likes to prepare people! (Our cats are six.)

And bone, yes, that might have been me. Or maybe another Lisa, @lisamarie12. It's our other cat, Ireland, who's had the constipation problem; I'm hoping that cutting back on their freeze-dried foods will help.

As for leaving out some dry food: if you're at all concerned about bone, I'd definitely suggest something like Pure Bites over Stella & Chewy's, which seems very bony. (I don't think they release their figure on bone percentage -- they're fairly secretive.) The phosphorus figures they gave me some years ago were crazy high (I don't remember exactly but something in the range of 3-4% dry matter!) which would bear that out. Caveat: their formula has changed multiple times since then. (Though their chicken recipe still starts with chicken with bone.) There is one dry food that sounds worth checking out: Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein chicken. I'm not a fan of dry food at all but if Edwina had some self-control, I'd gladly leave a little of that out at night. It's a very good recipe.

So yes, deep breath for both of us! I think it's time to give Edwina her replacement meal so Cat Catering needs to whip something up. And we both have to work!

Most important, your photo is great -- Pila and Saf are beautiful cats!

Good luck with Pila's food and let us know how things go.

Awww, Edwina! I am pretty sure she KNOWS she is now in a good family, with loving Mom and Dad, no need to worry about food but... she just can't control herself. Like when I look at chocolate chip cookies, thinking "this is empty calories, I don't need it!" "I can eat an apple maybe ..." then "hmm... maybe one bite? Oh it taste so good ... maybe another one? Where's my coffee?"

Good to know that there are so many reasons cats vomit. I don't remember where I saw, but somebody said her cat vomit for attention, and when stressor was removed stopped vomiting! That was probably equivalent to people vomit with anxiety attack ... whatever the root cause is, vomiting is not fun!

Sounds like Edwina and Ireland have good Vet! Yesterday when I went out store to buy Rawz, nice lady at store listened to my whole story, asked kitties age, I replied 9.5, and she said "Oh so she is senior ..." ... I was stunned!! I accept to be called "middle-aged" but no, I still call them "my little cuties"

In panic mode, I did request Dr. Elsey's sample and they sent me one Turkey can and dry food. What happened was ... as soon as it arrived, I opened envelope, hid dry in fridge, left canned and empty envelope on kitchen counter. Both kitties immediately found envelope and sniffed around! Especially Pila! (she had harder time giving up dry many years ago when we switched to all wet). I sometimes debate if it is better to use a little dry as treat (those are "complete") vs. freeze dried treat, but dry seems way too attractive/addictive ... thanks for your advice though!

It is wonderful hear real world kitty stories, getting practical knowledge plus lots of emotional support in here! Thanks again! I will keep every posted!

 

[CHIKITTIES]

Just picturing this cat wandering the house, swearing up a storm and telling dirty jokes.


CHIKITTIES ,

1. If the vomiting is managed through diet, e.g. you recognize that raw is problematic and the canned is not, then you've got a stable place to fall back on while you figure out the raw. If you lose that stable place, if she starts barfing on canned food, I would insist on refreshing the bloodwork and getting an ultrasound (because bloodwork can only tell so much.) Chronic issues have to start presenting somehow. "She has always been healthy" or "her bloodwork looked great in June" isn't as important as how she's doing now. Hopefully these are just isolated episodes and you can learn the triggers.

2. Which brings me to the food journal. I think you're already on top of this. When I was trying to stabilize Krista's IBD and learn the triggers, I started keeping a food journal (a Google Sheet actually) where I could track what I fed, when I fed it, how much she ate, and how it treated her on the transit. I used a lot of colors for foods, reactions, and even her poops so I could tell how regular she was. Most entries were just an amount and a color and often a quick note about her appetite and attitude. The food journal not only helped me spot patterns but also served as reassurance, when things went sideways, that these episodes never lasted very long, and she would right herself again soon enough.

3. Bone broth! The more I read about this, the more I want to stick a funnel in Krista's mouth and start pouring. I can sometimes get her to lick up a small amount if I cover it in powdered tuna flakes or powdered liver treats or I might be able to hide a small amount in her food (1 tsp.) If your cats will drink this, either on its own or in their food, this will be so good for them, and it may even settle Pila's gut.

You're already feeding high quality canned, making your own raw, feeding bone broth, and keeping a diary. You're way ahead of the game when I read a vomiting cat thread. Run simple trials like eggshell vs bone or single proteins and keep notes. One change at a time. You probably already know all of this! You've got this.

Hi Daftcat75,

Thank you very much for your reply! Before saying anything else, you are wonderful kitty Daddy and Krista is such a brave little kitty princess! You two are great team Hope she will start feeling much much better pretty soon!

I totally agree, people and cat can become ill overnight. 6 month ago test result and "been healthy" doesn't mean anything. If this stabilize I will schedule full blood test maybe around April, if not, earlier. I also need to remind myself that they are not a cute furry machines, they have time not feeling good, eat more or less, that is quite normal. Don't expect them to eat same amount every day, behave 100% healthy and happy all the time. Especially now that we are aging gracefully ... I just need to catch anything unusual quickly. That brings me to your 2nd point, journaling. As you see I do have notebook recording unusual events. I will try to make it to daily habit, even there is nothing unusual. That will help me not panicking with little changes ... hopefully ...

Kitties definitely catch my feeling and have "sponge effect". If I panic and start worrying to much, they feel and worry themselves, and we go vicious cycle. This time that happened between 1/24-26, I was totally freaking out and Pila lost appetite, suddenly turned to tuna eater for 2 days (and she's not even a tuna fan to begin with!).

I was too worried about giving too much Chicken (knowing many kitties are allergic), but so far Pila is doing better with birds, I will start again with Raw Chicken, and will go from there. Kitties were not impressed with bone broth by itself, but are eating when I mix in food. I just gave Saf a tiny bit of goat milk, wasn't really planning but lady at store was so nice, so decided to take it (turmeric and ginger? ). Yes I agree, changing too many thing at same time is not a good idea.

Thanks again for all your advice! Good luck on Krista's adventure and I hope she will soon start liking Bone broth!

 

[daftcat75]

My take, based on my reading, is that true food allergies among cats are rare. But cats can develop allergies because they can develop leaky guts from irritants in their food that cause inflammation and alter gut composition and permeability. When undigested or partially digested food proteins leak it into the bloodstream, the immune system begins the machinery to recognize these molecules as foreign invaders. Leaky gut leads to learned allergies. So a lot of cats become allergic to chicken, tuna, and salmon because these are the most common cat food proteins. But! If they are not now allergic to chicken and you stay ahead of the processes that develop a leaky gut by feeding a species appropriate diet, avoiding dry food, ensuring adequate moisture, and eliminating triggers as you learn them (food journal!), then there's no reason for them to become allergic to chicken if they are not right now. On the other hand, if you let things get out of hand for too long, if the gut becomes too leaky, any proteins you switch to when you try novel protein diets, limited ingredient diets, etc can potentially also become learned allergies. This is why it's important to learn your cats' specific triggers and avoid them and also heal and seal your kitties' guts with bone broth.

The other common mistake I see (besides switching diet without healing the gut) is jumping on the novel protein bandwagon. First, if you followed above, the protein only has to be novel to your cat, not to all cats. It also only needs to be infrequent. If you fed your cat beef four years ago and haven't fed it since, that doesn't mean she's now allergic to beef because she's had it before. But the other problem I have with novel protein diets is that proteins that are novel to all cats tend to be red meats and game meats that a lot of cats don't go for. Krista doesn't eat red meat. If we had to follow a novel protein diet, she would have starved. Fortunately, I fed her mostly chicken and salmon her entire life so I only had to cross those two off when her IBD troubles started. Duck and turkey were novel enough for her. Turkey is her favorite! Rabbit is a backup, and I reserve tuna for treats, bribes, and medicine.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

My take, based on my reading, is that true food allergies among cats are rare. But cats can develop allergies because they can develop leaky guts from irritants in their food that cause inflammation and alter gut composition and permeability. When undigested or partially digested food proteins leak it into the bloodstream, the immune system begins the machinery to recognize these molecules as foreign invaders. Leaky gut leads to learned allergies. So a lot of cats become allergic to chicken, tuna, and salmon because these are the most common cat food proteins. But! If they are not now allergic to chicken and you stay ahead of the processes that develop a leaky gut by feeding a species appropriate diet, avoiding dry food, ensuring adequate moisture, and eliminating triggers as you learn them (food journal!), then there's no reason for them to become allergic to chicken if they are not right now. On the other hand, if you let things get out of hand for too long, if the gut becomes too leaky, any proteins you switch to when you try novel protein diets, limited ingredient diets, etc can potentially also become learned allergies. This is why it's important to learn your cats' specific triggers and avoid them and also heal and seal your kitties' guts with bone broth.

The other common mistake I see (besides switching diet without healing the gut) is jumping on the novel protein bandwagon. First, if you followed above, the protein only has to be novel to your cat, not to all cats. It also only needs to be infrequent. If you fed your cat beef four years ago and haven't fed it since, that doesn't mean she's now allergic to beef because she's had it before. But the other problem I have with novel protein diets is that proteins that are novel to all cats tend to be red meats and game meats that a lot of cats don't go for. Krista doesn't eat red meat. If we had to follow a novel protein diet, she would have starved. Fortunately, I fed her mostly chicken and salmon her entire life so I only had to cross those two off when her IBD troubles started. Duck and turkey were novel enough for her. Turkey is her favorite! Rabbit is a backup, and I reserve tuna for treats, bribes, and medicine.

It's not easy! Pila did not like Rawz Duck today ... oh well, that was expected. She does not like pate, not keen on duck ... at least when I mixed up with Miko she ate some (all Miko, some Rawz). Thanks for your reassurance I did not feel too bad about opening another can of Miko. That is her current favorite, started to much prefer over Tiki Koolina Luau ... I decided not to compare ingredients, if I find something I don't like, another panic attack begins ...

I plan to make all Chicken raw tomorrow Also run to WH and make another batch of Bone Broth. Saf's been drinking a LOT of broth (broth I made plus from Miko, to be exact). Initially I was little concerned that maybe getting too much calcium, but so far I've been reading broth really don't have much minerals ...

Glad Krista can eat Turkey, Duck and Rabbit! Is there any chance she will be able to eat Chicken and Salmon again? When her gut recover well enough?

I can imagine if your beloved kitty is sick, you become desperate and want to try Kangaroo, Elk, Alpaca, etc etc ... I just can't imagine kitties attacking and eating Cows or Alpaca ... and imagine their body is not designed to eat that type of meat ... I am probably very wrong though. Eating birds and rabbits sounds more natural. Although I heard that angry bunny can fight back and not a easy pray for cats

 

[daftcat75]

I've seen Krista with a kicker toy. I think she can hold her own against a rabbit.

I have alligator and emu in the freezer if Krista is ever feeling adventurous again. Alligator is a pale meat like chicken so she might go for it. Emu, while being a bird, looks like a red meat though. For Valentines Day, I got her freeze-dried turkey hearts. I hope she likes them because reindeer for Christmas was a bust.

Honestly, I don't know if she would still react to chicken if her gut was healed and sealed. My leading theory behind her elevated liver enzymes was carry-over inflammation from Fancy Feast and FortiFlora. I fed her those when her teeth were bothering her before her latest extractions. When she stopped eating her regular food, she was still eating Fancy Feast or other foods with FortiFlora topping. But then I realized there was an allergen in both of them because she would scratch like mad after eating either. Between a course of ursodiol, a course of antibiotics, and getting the FF's the F out her, I expect beautiful bloodwork this weekend.

 

[Furballsmom]

 

[daftcat75]

Alligator is a pale meat like chicken so she might go for it. Emu, while being a bird, looks like a red meat though.

I should note that this would be so much easier finding proteins for Krista if I ate meat myself. Then I could have a possible frame of reference for the difference between meats, red meats, white meat, etc. I could cook up a delicious piece of salmon for her. If it weren't on her no-fly list... (no-swim list?)

 

[CHIKITTIES]

I should note that this would be so much easier finding proteins for Krista if I ate meat myself. Then I could have a possible frame of reference for the difference between meats, red meats, white meat, etc. I could cook up a delicious piece of salmon for her. If it weren't on her no-fly list... (no-swim list?)

Same here!! I was horrified to make raw food initially, but cooking is more challenging. Raw, at least doesn't smell so much (except mouse!) vs. oh boy when I cooked bone broth .... time to go buy some "chicken back"

Alligator ... wow. Let me know how Krista think! We might need to try someday ..

My kitties insist their share when I cook chickpea. I know it is not good for them, but give them a few ... only 2-3.

 

[daftcat75]

Alligator was $35/lbs. Treat meat only! I will not be making your regular food at $35/lbs!

I used to let Krista lick the scrambled egg bowl after I poured the eggs into the pan. I know the white contains avidin which binds biotin but the yolk contains biotin so maybe it's just a wash there. I don't know. We have other issues to work through first. I have other ways to provide her treats that don't involve anti-nutrients.

Yeah, I was pretty apprehensive about raw at first too. I used to thaw Rad Cat completely in the fridge and then I'd get nervous about color and smell. But once I learned how to carve the frozen Rad Cat and reportion to ice cube trays or baggies, I never had to question the freshness again. Doing everything as frozen as possible has taken the ick factor out. But also seeing how happy and healthy it made Krista, I found myself having fantasies of feeding a zoo to her. Or tying a few live turkeys on the deck, and let her feed velociraptor style. I hope we can get back to raw eventually.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

Alligator was $35/lbs. Treat meat only! I will not be making your regular food at $35/lbs!

I used to let Krista lick the scrambled egg bowl after I poured the eggs into the pan. I know the white contains avidin which binds biotin but the yolk contains biotin so maybe it's just a wash there. I don't know. We have other issues to work through first. I have other ways to provide her treats that don't involve anti-nutrients.

Yeah, I was pretty apprehensive about raw at first too. I used to thaw Rad Cat completely in the fridge and then I'd get nervous about color and smell. But once I learned how to carve the frozen Rad Cat and reportion to ice cube trays or baggies, I never had to question the freshness again. Doing everything as frozen as possible has taken the ick factor out. But also seeing how happy and healthy it made Krista, I found myself having fantasies of feeding a zoo to her. Or tying a few live turkeys on the deck, and let her feed velociraptor style. I hope we can get back to raw eventually.

Wow, $35/lb! I thought $14/lb mousy was expensive but ...

I hope too, that Krista will be able to go back to raw after her current problems are settled, especially if she liked it! But grow that hair back first, punk rock princess

 

[daftcat75]

No hairballs since her tummy was shaved for the ultrasound last month. I think that's our answer. When the hairballs return, she's going back in for a tummy trim. Grow back the neck and catheter legs but take your time on the belly.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

UPDATE:
After semi-panic post on Monday, so far no ... but that doesn't mean we are back to normal. Rather, skittish Mama cat is not able to give Pila enough raw.

• Made Chicken only raw and Pila ate twice. No puke. But she is needing a lot of topper. So far S&C Chick Chick is working the best, but I am concerned about bone contents. @lisamarie12 gave me possible alternative options (Whole Life and Bravo Freeze dry treats), in Chewy shopping cart now
• 2nd time Chicken bone broth came out good (creamy opaque gel when cool), and it seems HIT in this house
• Goat milk - Saf liked, Pila ignored
• Canned food - all Pila wants now is Miko Tomorrow I will try Tiki with Bone broth, but not much difference between those two food? Maybe try Raws Turkey again.
• daftcat75 helped me to overcome fear of Chicken allergy but I still want Pila to eat something other than Chicken ... took a peak at grocery store meat section today, there was Turkey, doesn't seems enhanced (70mg? sodium per serving). Try cooking Reading cooked food recipe threads on this site.
• She has good appetite. Just doesn't like certain canned food. Activity and "output" are good. Nothing unusual.

Until this start happening, we had almost zero picky eater issue (except transition time) and I totally forgot about, but now remember they started to prefer Rabbit and Pork over Chicken and Turkey ... so Pila needing topper is maybe not only for her hesitation (am I puke this food?) but ... ???

Well very much for reading this looong update! Hope next one is better than this!

 

[CHIKITTIES]

No hairballs since her tummy was shaved for the ultrasound last month. I think that's our answer. When the hairballs return, she's going back in for a tummy trim. Grow back the neck and catheter legs but take your time on the belly.

Hmm, but she maybe cold if she lose her tummy hair? Does she tolerate wearing something (sweater or T-shirts) so that she will not lick tummy?

 

[daftcat75]

I have an electric radiator she can sleep directly up against (and has too) if she is actually cold. She's an indoor only cat. I like to keep the apartment pretty warm. I don't think she's cold. She would absolutely hate wearing clothes. In any case, she's better off with a bare belly than a weekly hairball.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

I have an electric radiator she can sleep directly up against (and has too) if she is actually cold. She's an indoor only cat. I like to keep the apartment pretty warm. I don't think she's cold. She would absolutely hate wearing clothes. In any case, she's better off with a bare belly than a weekly hairball.

Oh I did not realize that Krista has such a frequent hair ball issue! Once a week is way too often. Definitely worth trying hair cut!

 

[lisahe]

I'm glad things have been calm for a few days, CHIKITTIES! I hope the streak continues. Fingers crossed on that! 70 mg of sodium should be fine for the turkey -- for EZ Complete they say 100 mg and under. Interesting that your cats liked pork so much: ours love it. (So do I: it's reasonably priced!)

Ugh, hair! I nearly got back up last night when I was falling asleep and hadn't brushed Edwina! I didn't and she was fine. Strange but I've noticed that there seems to be a correlation between hair barfs (not necessarily hairballs but significant amounts of fur) and nights when I haven't brushed the cats' teeth. I wonder if the glycerine (or some other ingredient? hydrated silica? yum?) in the toothpaste might somehow help her to pass the fur.