Raw/homemade Fed Cats: Weight, Eating Patterns, Anxiety, Veterinary Misinformation

[cat7bird]

Hey, just wanted to check in with some questions about my cats' eating. They're 2.5 years, and I've been feeding them PMR since I got them as kittens. They're males, not littermates, and Mouse weighs about 12.5 pounds and Linus weighs about 8 pounds. Linus has always been a small cat -- at his first vet visit at 10 weeks, she called him "runty." Then, at their recent annual visit, the vet was concerned with Linus's size. It's definitely been on my radar, but on a gut level I think that it's just him and he's healthy and naturally svelte. To be clear, he's not emaciated or scarily thin, he's simply thin -- not even especially bony, just lacks excess fat.

The vet referred to Mouse as a 5 on the body condition scale, and Linus as more like a 3 (I wasn't aware of this scale and had to look it up). I think Linus could well be a 4, or approaching 4, and Mouse borders on being OVER 5, truly. It got me wondering if people, including vets, are so used to overweight pets, that the perception of healthy weight is skewed. She seemed much more concerned than if my cats had been fat. I too, am more comfortable with Mouse's sturdy, borderline-overweight physique, because it give me a (false) sense I don't have to worry about underfeeding him, even though he is the one who acts constantly hungry, and not Linus (and Mouse is also eating less than Linus relative to his weight).

On to their eating, I feed them the same amount, about 5-6oz/day each, in 3, sometimes 4 meals, which amounts to +/-4% of Linus's body weight, and 2.5-3% of Mouse's. Linus as a kitten was the more voracious eater, but now it's definitely Mouse. I do get concerned as a meal feeder, compared to, say, a free-kibble feeder, that like what if I'm not feeding my cats enough and they're experiencing substantial hunger (versus just insistence due to being animals, and bored housecats at that) and I don't know it. Mouse asks for food all the time, so I've thought about adding a meal, or increasing meal sizes, but he shouldn't gain weight, and Linus just doesn't seem to anyway. When Linus does meow for his meal, I do take that as a cue to feed them because he's really patient about it, whereas Mouse communicates that he expects a meal anytime someone walks through the door etc.

Now, the vet asked about vomiting and such, and expressed concern that perhaps Linus is not absorbing nutrients properly. Actual food vomit is extremely rare, but he had been expelling hairballs every few weeks, and I said as much (I'm still unclear on whether hairball vomit is significant in the same way). She recommended I feed only rabbit for 6 weeks and then add back proteins to determine whether a protein allergy exists. Now, I don't know how PMR feeders with protein-allergic cats approach balance (anyone?) so that was worrisome, but I also just found the idea that he could be allergic to poultry really far-fetched, given how much of it he eats, and how relatively-well he seems. I had noticed a correlation between increased hairballs and increased red meat in their diet (in my efforts to increase variety for PMR balance), so instead I removed red meat from their rotation. The hair balls have basically ceased, but shortly thereafter I also came to suspect that their fish oil was going rancid, and replaced it, so it could have been that and not the red meat.

I don't really know what I'm asking. I've had experience with a vet telling me to do something that I know is wrong for my cat, and made the mistake of listening anyway because they're supposed to know and I'm supposed to listen to them. Right now, I'm monitoring, to make sure that food absorption and vomiting is not an issue (there was a diagnostic test that the vet would have done, but couldn't because Linus hadn't fasted before the appointment). I think bad fish oil was the most likely culprit, and can add back red meat and see how they do (I've also floated the idea that Linus could be eating something he isn't supposed to be eating). I don't think this vet knows that much about pet wellness and nutrition, though I think she's a skilled surgeon and is skilled at treating illness, and I'm trying to use my judgment about their eating since I'm the one exposed to all the ins and outs. I think it's hard to reconcile my inherent anxiety about taking care of them when they can't tell me what they're experiencing, particularly in regard to making their food and making sure that it's balanced, and that they're satiated, with not only NOT having someone like Dr. Pierson for a vet (that's the dream), but coming up against nutrition and raw/homemade misinformation at best, and bias at worst.

So, to other raw feeders, and raw-feeding veterans -- do your cats want to eat constantly? Do their appetites fluctuate? Do they vomit? Do you worry that they could be hungry or unsatisfied and you wouldn't know? Are they anything other than the perfect weight -- underweight? Overweight? Do you have to filter out misinformation and bias from vets? Has anyone experienced bad fish oil -- what happened? Anyone feed sardines etc and NOT use fish oil (I'm antsy about it now)? Am I just completely under-reacting to the fact that Linus does not have abdominal fat?

p.s. When this same vet saw Linus at 10 weeks, she initially expressed that I had been given false information about his age so that they could adopt him out sooner, and he was truly much younger. This was not the case, and I said as much, and she checked his teeth and then conceded that he was just "runty."

 

[orange&white]

I fed 3 cats and 2 dogs a raw diet from mid-2008 to early-2013 and they were the healthiest, most robust pets. One cat passed at 19.5 years at a healthy weight in late 2013. One cat was eating disordered and started refusing to eat raw, so I switched back. In 2013, I started free-feeding kibble plus canned so that the "problem cat" would eat. I also got lazy and started giving the dogs "Dog Food". Between 2013 and January, I saw the pets slowly decline in general vitality. The "problem cat" got very thin eating mostly kibble and crossed the bridge last September. At that time, his brother Tangent weighed 16.5 pounds. He had put on 3.5 pounds of fat during the time I went back to processed food. On raw, he ate all he wanted and maintained a very good muscular weight. My Cairn Terrier was diagnosed with chronic kidney failure in mid-2015 and I lost her this past January 7th.

Can't say I can blame processed foods for all the problems, but we're back on raw since January. One tabby cat and one Corgi dog are still with me from the first raw switch 9 years ago, and I have a new kitten who I am raising on raw.

Not sure that I answered any of your questions, but that is my experience. I do feed canned fish instead of fish oil supplement (rotate sardines, salmon, mackerel in water), per week 3 oz split between the two cats and 3 oz for the dog.

 

[cat7bird]

Thanks. I realized as I was writing that I wasn't looking for anything in particular, so your experience definitely helps. I feed canned fish to my cats weekly as well, in addition to fish oil (about half the amount you feed), but wasn't sure I could feed it as a complete replacement for fish oil, as I might like.

 

[orange&white]

I keep thinking about buying fish oil, but the petkins all seem to like "Real Fish Sunday". Yesterday I was in the baking aisle at Walmart and noticed they are carrying a fairly big bottle of unscented Norwegian salmon oil now for around $10.00. I thought, "Hmmm." I need to look up the brand and see if it's junk or not. I also worry about using it so slowly that it will go rancid.

 

[lalagimp]

The boys' body scores weren't even generated until we got all their measurements in. I thought they were crazy telling me my little puma should be 13 lbs but they did measure him head to toe, sideways, and practically upside down.
The only time since then that they've used a body score on my Tommy are the 3 times he went to the ER since we moved here and it's after he's reached his goal weight. Even when he was very sick they scored him well and either right at ideal or just underneath cause well, he was sick.
orange&white is really good at tracking the food intake based on the body weight percentage, but I end up adjusting 1/2 oz up or down to lose/maintain/gain
There is rarely vomiting on my raw and we use rabbit and turkey
They get whiny about 20 minutes following a feeding because they are still hunting and then they usually start getting alert 45-1:15 before a feeding. Stew and Tom get fed five times per day.
We've been doing raw since December. We've been doing portion control for over 3 years now.

 

[abyeb]

Do you have pictures of Linus? I'm curious if he had some Siamese-family heritage, that would certainly give him a naturally svelte build.

 

[cat7bird]

I'll look for good photos to send (if I can't find any on my phone, then it will have to wait a couple of days because I'm out of town). Mouse has siamese heritage (he is a gray cat with a brother who was a blue-point -- his mom was very lanky, but he's not). Both cats are adopted, but I had much more interaction with Mouse's family, so with Linus I have no idea about any breed stuff. I met his parents for a split second and they were like brownish, stripyish, generic cats, and his sisters too. Linus is a black cat with a tuft of white fur on his neck. He is just a small, slim cat. He's just little. I know many people seem to have >10 lb cats, but maybe it's unusual for a male?

I was using this stuff, and definitely held onto it too long, which seems to be a risk with the liquid. Now I'm emptying capsules, which I thoroughly disenjoy, but most annoyingly I find that the oil has coated the silicone trays I use to freeze their food, and so I'm wanting to replace them but they're like $20 a pop and it took me a while to get the minimum I needed. I feel like between the liquid going rancid, poking holes in oily capsules, and ruining my equipment, I'd like to forego the oil and just feed the fish. The cats seem to prefer their meat without it even when it's totally fresh anyway.

Re: vomiting. Anyone know whether there is a distinction btwn vomiting food and hairballs? I mean my cats have these 2 distinct types of vomiting, hairballs being far more (but still not very) common, and I don't know if this is cause for the same concern. Thanks!

 

[abyeb]

Hairballs is caused by a lack of internal motility. Using Laxatone should clear that up. Vomiting food, on the other hand, is caused by a whole host of GI issues, as well as infectious disease, or allergies.

 

[orange&white]

You might try dripping the fish oil on top of their food at serving time if it is ruining your ice trays (and if they'll eat it that way).

Are both cats having hair balls/vomiting? Feeding 1-2 raw egg yolks per week will usually help the cat pass any hair balls out the back end versus hacking them up. Hairballs just look like fur in watery liquid. Vomit looks like undigested food. Either one is cause for concern as both food and fur should pass through the cat, but I would consider vomiting food more serious.

 

[cat7bird]

Vomit (food) is not something I observe on a regular basis, though there have been discrete periods of time in which I observed an uptick. I'm planning to journal any incidents and what they ate in order to determine any pattern, and the true frequency etc. There was an increase in hairballs a few months back, but not currently. From what I observe, it is usually Linus, but I don't always see. He seems to be more sensitive. Egg yolks are something I used to feed weekly, but they weren't that into it (at least Linus wasn't, he's much more picky) and I got inconsistent about it. Vet also said I can put a bit of coconut oil on their paws to lick off, so I've been doing that on occasion. Perhaps he could be overgrooming? He's pretty compulsive about cleaning and digging/burying.

 

[orange&white]

I make the cats' food in chunks and add a supplement slurry with four egg yolks for every 5-6 pounds of food. That gives them about 2 yolks each per week.

My senior is a short-hair with not much undercoat, so he has had very few hairballs in his life. The kitten's adult coat will be fluffier, medium length, with thicker undercoat...so she'll shed a lot and be more prone to hairballs. She just started loosing her kitten coat over the last month, and so far, not a single hairball. When I cleaned the kitten's litter this morning, I broke open her poop with a paper towel. It was mainly fur in the middle and almost nothing that looked like "food poop". That's good....says that nearly all the raw food is being absorbed as nutrients and only the insoluble protein-fiber (fur) is getting pooped out.

I was reading an article yesterday on feline-nutrition.org that said raw-fed cats' source of natural fiber is their fur and that their poop should ideally be mostly fur. That's what inspired me to "inspect" inside her poop.

Keeping a journal of incidents is a good idea.

 

[susanandjose]

I have been feeding my cats raw since kittenhood. One is 11 years, and one is a 9 month old that we just adopted. They do not have variable appetites (as long as they're not sick) -- to the contrary, they are food-crazed and somewhat bouncing off the walls, especially as kittens. The raw food seems to give them tons of energy and also more appetite somehow.

I make my own raw food because I like to know what goes in it, and plus it's economical, and then I use Primal freeze-dried raw as a "topper" since it's more stinky. I thaw out a little brick of raw food in the fridge the night before, and then the next day mix warm water with it to warm it to room temp, and add the stinky topper.

I do use fish oil -- the Nordic Naturals brand of arctic cod liver oil -- but I don't give sardines or any other fish.

I've found that a LOT of vets are just a "treat the symptoms" kind of vet, but here in San Francisco I never get any pushback on the raw diet.

My older kitty lived with my parents for a spell when I was living outside the US, and they ended up feeding him dry food. He gained a ton of weight and became less sociable, but since transitioning back to raw he is now back at perfect weight (so says the vet).

When they were younger on raw, yes they were on the skinny side -- not super skinny, but just not a typical fat cat that is so common. More like athletes if that makes sense?

BTW, the 11 year old kitty currently weighs 12.5 lbs on raw. His weight used to fluctuate between 11 and 13 lbs on raw, and he was up to 15 on dry food. He is also oriental heritage, but dense and stocky.

 

[cat7bird]

Thanks susanandjose and orange&white , and everyone for all the responses. Yes, my cats are very young still, and super athletic and energetic. I didn't realize it at the time, but I think what I saw as variable appetite may just have been food rejection due to the fish oil. Mouse ultimately wants to eat no matter what, no matter when he last ate, and he will power through foods Linus may reject (like this honest kitchen dehydrated turkey I keep on hand for emergency. I've fed it to 3 other cats and all liked it, but Linus will just walk right up to it and make like he's burying it, which he typically does when he's DONE eating). Linus is more finicky overall, and sometimes even though hungry, he may not eat right the minute I put the food down, and if I look away, Mouse will eat he food and then he'll be like wtf, and then I have to give him a new meal (they can each be on either side of this) -- I expect toppers would address this, but it's mostly not a problem, and they don't usually need them. Linus is more hesitant about proteins I feed less, like red meat, and they definitely seemed like the most natural thing to first cut to do any kind of elimination assessment.

Linus ate like crazy as a young kitten. I brought him home and I offered him duck hearts in one bowl, and tikicat in another and he gobbled up the duck hearts and then the first tray I used to freeze their food was this one-square-inch cube tray, and so before feeding I would squish the cubes down to disperse, and he would notoriously swipe the whole cube and gulp it down in one bite before I had a chance to separate it. I was surprised when it seemed to shift to Mouse being the more ravenous one, though he's definitely more athletic. I was hoping their appetites would calm down, which only Linus's seems to have, but it really seems more that he's finicky than satiated. idk, I feel like it's possible something is off, going over all the info, but I also think it's totally possible that this is just his body and he's fine. His personality is more hesitant and persnickety in general.

I will have to crush their poop and check for fur, interesting. I'm going to switch back to making a supplement slurry, which I used to do when I fed ground, instead of spooning it out dry over each portion like I've been doing with PMR. It was just easier the first way, and I can add egg yolks and get some more water in them that way.

 

[susanandjose]

Thanks susanandjose and orange&white , and everyone for all the responses. Yes, my cats are very young still, and super athletic and energetic. I didn't realize it at the time, but I think what I saw as variable appetite may just have been food rejection due to the fish oil. Mouse ultimately wants to eat no matter what, no matter when he last ate, and he will power through foods Linus may reject (like this honest kitchen dehydrated turkey I keep on hand for emergency. I've fed it to 3 other cats and all liked it, but Linus will just walk right up to it and make like he's burying it, which he typically does when he's DONE eating). Linus is more finicky overall, and sometimes even though hungry, he may not eat right the minute I put the food down, and if I look away, Mouse will eat he food and then he'll be like wtf, and then I have to give him a new meal (they can each be on either side of this) -- I expect toppers would address this, but it's mostly not a problem, and they don't usually need them. Linus is more hesitant about proteins I feed less, like red meat, and they definitely seemed like the most natural thing to first cut to do any kind of elimination assessment.

Linus ate like crazy as a young kitten. I brought him home and I offered him duck hearts in one bowl, and tikicat in another and he gobbled up the duck hearts and then the first tray I used to freeze their food was this one-square-inch cube tray, and so before feeding I would squish the cubes down to disperse, and he would notoriously swipe the whole cube and gulp it down in one bite before I had a chance to separate it. I was surprised when it seemed to shift to Mouse being the more ravenous one, though he's definitely more athletic. I was hoping their appetites would calm down, which only Linus's seems to have, but it really seems more that he's finicky than satiated. idk, I feel like it's possible something is off, going over all the info, but I also think it's totally possible that this is just his body and he's fine. His personality is more hesitant and persnickety in general.

I will have to crush their poop and check for fur, interesting. I'm going to switch back to making a supplement slurry, which I used to do when I fed ground, instead of spooning it out dry over each portion like I've been doing with PMR. It was just easier the first way, and I can add egg yolks and get some more water in them that way.

Yep, unfortunately some kitties are just picky and will always be on the hesitant / skinny side -- while others are more food oriented and you actually have to watch their weight! I've always had one of each living together, and it can be worrisome if you try to compare, but then remember that we humans also have different body types and personalities and that's ok!

Sometimes, I've also noticed that they do go through phases of appetite, but I think your intuition is the most important -- you know if something is off, and don't let anyone (vet or otherwise) dissuade you from what you sense is happening.

 

[cat7bird]

Thanks. Yes, I'm going to journal and collect data in order to address the possibility that there is a GI or allergy issue, but my intuition *is* that this is just him. My vet has her skills, but seeing things from outside of her lens is not really among them (I haven't encountered anyone I like better nearby, so I'm giving it more time to evolve as she continues to treat them -- hopefully only annual wellness checks will be needed for a long while). Of course, I appreciate her sounding the alarm so I can look to see if there is something wrong, it just seemed that she was certain there is, whereas I'm unconvinced (and I mean, she's been alarmed/horrified by Linus's size since he was a babycat of 2 pounds). Of course, like humans, there will be cats who are more inclined to be skinny, and while it would be more comforting for his body condition to be a 5 or at least 4, that may not be realistic for a 2 year-old Linus.

 

[orange&white]

Does your vet run blood and urine tests at their exams? If Linus' numbers are all in a good range, then I also think he is just naturally on the lean side, particularly if he was the runt of the litter. You say that Linus is eating 5-6 ounces of food every day at 4% of his body weight. As long as he isn't vomiting that food back up, then that is a normal, healthy amount of really nutritious food he's getting.

You see him every day and the vet only sees him once a year. If his numbers are all good, then I agree to trust your own instincts.

 

[cat7bird]

Thanks for your support (and sorry for the delay)! I wanted to do blood work, since there's not much besides monitoring, and thus labs, that I need from their annual exams, but there was some reason we didn't do it -- maybe cost and her not being clear on what would be imperative to test? It seemed that, declining boosters and such, my needs were atypical. I didn't talk to her beforehand, which was my mistake, so now I know to check-in so we can research and plan before any kind of wellness visit. I have tested Linus's urine myself, but not in a long time (when he was a kitten I started seeing some unusual peeing behaviors and I wanted to check for cystitis). His numbers on those tests were fine, and I can get a current sample and see where he's at. So the numbers still need to be established, but I agree. If things don't seem fine, we'll do another exam. But so far, they have. He hasn't been vomiting food. He did have one hairball. He looks like he may have gained a bit of weight in the past few weeks, too. Because he doesn't typically wolf down his food, and is inclined to graze, or just not eat all his food in one sitting, and he may groom before he's done eating, and then go back to it -- Mouse has lots of opportunities to polish off his food for him, so I've been making a point of putting it away to present again for Linus in a little while. While I'd been stopping Mouse from simply eating Linus's food, I hadn't been stopping him from finishing it off if Linus seemed done, but now I've been encouraging Linus to come back to it, because he needs the calories, and Mouse doesn't.

What are other peoples' experiences with annual labwork? I thought bloodwork would be standard. I was interested in some form of nutrient testing to analyze their diet, and also to do a titer in lieu of FVRCP booster, and I figured that there was probably some other stuff that would be standard to monitor annually or so, but that was not the case, and my vet rushed to find quotes and it all seemed cost prohibitive. I asked about fecal and was told there was no reason to do a repeat fecal test. Urine testing didn't come up.

 

[orange&white]

I don't think blood work is standard. I only had one cat who I did routine blood work and thyroid testing because he was often too thin, eating disordered-pica, separation anxiety-destructive, and hyperactive. I kept worrying he was hyperthyroid or some unknown "something". He always tested "fine". lol

Anyway, cats who appear healthy and have no odd symptoms don't usually get anything more than a cursory look over.

 

[cat7bird]

Yeah, so that's where we're at. Linus is definitely peculiar, but I don't think it's medical. I do wonder about whatever test she couldn't do since he hadn't fasted. Something to do with digestion I suppose. I figure if there is vomiting or weight loss, that test is where we will start. Separate from illness, I had the idea as a homemade raw feeder that it would be nice to have data to ensure they didn't have any nutritional deficiencies that were being overlooked, but it doesn't really seem like a thing.

 

[sophie1]

Your descriptions of Linus and Mouse sound like they are perfectly healthy cats, with really nothing to be concerned about. The only possible issue is that Linus may be eating a bit much (4% body weight) for a 2.5 year old cat with average energy level. Ask your vet whether parasites could be an issue, and if it's worth trying a de-worming. Other than that possibility, everything you're describing sounds within range of normal. Cats have different natural weights and different likes/dislikes. You might want to look for alternative backup foods to find something that both your cats will eat readily - Linus is telling you that he doesn't like Honest Kitchen.

Perhaps Linus' blase attitude about food is what's bothering you? That might be just who he is. Perhaps he's hesitant to eat near Mouse, who sounds a bit food aggressive. Try feeding them out of sight of each other, and distracting Mouse or even closing him into a separate room for a while so that Linus can eat in peace at his own pace.