Raw food and bladder stones

sophie1

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My two male 7 year old Siberian cats have been almost 100% on raw food for their entire lives - and never are fed dry food except as treats. They eat a combination of Natures Variety raw chicken medallions, and food from Hare Today (rabbit and turkey mostly). A couple weeks ago, I saw bloody urine in the litter box, and saw that one of the cats (Chai) looked uncomfortable. Turned out he had large bladder stones. These were removed surgically about 1.5 weeks ago.

Due to COVID delays, the stone analysis will not come back for about a month. I just got the urine culture & sensitivies results which showed a mild UTI (E coli), which is now being treated with amoxicillin. The vet surgeon suggested feeding Royal Canin Urinary SO food in the meantime, but didn't make it a must-do. He's eating about half that and half raw (mainly because he's not too enthusiastic about the canned). I was up front to the surgeon about the raw diet, and the surgeon said she didn't think that had anything to do with the UTI, that it was more likely acquired from the litter box or from cross-contamination while grooming his nether regions. She also didn't think the UTI caused the stones.

I've been thinking to wait until the stone analysis comes back and then maybe get a vet nutritionist consult. In the meantime though...any opinions on what would make the raw diet safe to keep feeding him? The two variables I suspect are most important are water content and bone percentage (in case it's calcium oxalate stones). I've been adding extra water to the raw food and also bought a Cat-it fountain which neither cat is interested in yet. I have also started aiming for smaller bone percentage (7% instead of 10%). The Hare Today grinds are supposed to be 15% bone for rabbit and 10% bone for turkey; I had been feeding them the turkey straight up and diluting the rabbit with 3/4 lb plain meat per 1 lb rabbit.

Hoping for some suggestions, thanks!
 
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sophie1

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Thanks I was already aware of supplementation info. I use Alnutrin for meat/bone/organ mixes.

Just wondering if anyone has encountered problems with bladder stones IN RAW FED CATS and what diet-wise might have caused it. Classically it's supposed to be a disease of cats fed dry food and/or high carbohydrate diets, so I'm a bit at a loss.
 

lisamarie12

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I'm sorry to here about Chai.

This is what Dr. Pierson has to say about bone percentage and commercial raw diets / bladder stones:

"The more bone material contained in the diet, the more minerals are filtered through the kidney and end up in the bladder.

Minerals (calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, etc.,) are building blocks of crystals/stones which can obstruct the ureter or the urethra – especially in male cats since their urethra is longer and narrower than a female’s urethra."

Commercial Cat Foods

And this:

"When considering water versus phosphorus content, as noted above, the water issue is the most important but if you are really worried about crystals (even though they are not an abnormal finding in cat urine as discussed below), pick a diet that is low in phosphorous.
Phosphorus is a general indicator of the calcium and magnesium load of the diet. If a diet is low in phosphorus, chances are it is also fairly low in calcium and magnesium since all of those minerals are high in bone material and if a diet is low in phosphorus, it is probably low in bone matter."

Cat Urinary Tract Diseases: Cystitis, Urethral Obstruction, Urinary Tract Infection

Hope Chai recovers soon.
 

Talien

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You could try a brand that doesn't use bone if it's a concern for you, I feed mine Balanced Blends which uses powdered egg shell instead of bone for calcium. You shouldn't need the urinary food though, the difference between that and regular food is higher acidity which is supposed to break down crystals, raw food is also more acidic. Some of the prescription urinary food is a bit too acidic and is suspected to be a contributor to calcium oxalate stones in some cases.

Your vet is most likely correct about the infection source, if it was e-coli it's probably from the litterbox or from grooming himself or grooming your other Cat.
 

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Thanks I was already aware of supplementation info. I use Alnutrin for meat/bone/organ mixes.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was trying to point out with a specific post in that thread that I linked, by someone who has used recipes as well as premixes, that there are other means and methods of providing the required nutrients, minerals etc other than pre-mixed supplements, since the percentage of bone, as you mentioned in your first post, can be such a challenging factor. I thought their experiences, sources and thinking behind various choices could be helpful to you.
 
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sophie1

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Thank you all!! The stone analysis from the hospital came back as struvite. I've been corresponding with my regular vet. He thinks this is highly unusual (male cat not fed dry food, age 7, long-lived breed). He wants to keep Chai on Urinary SO food for now and recheck u/a and blood work in a week.

He said he is not a huge fan of the prescription food especially compared to the raw diet, and floated the idea of using this supplement:


I also checked Dr. Pierson's recommendations for low phosphorus diets - that's usually for CKD but she mentioned it in connection with struvite stones. Nature Variety signature medallions were listed as being very low phosphorus but that just had to be a typo. It is actually kind of mid-range (1.8% DMB) per the company's website and greater than the recommended 1.2% upper limit. I also noticed it's a bit low in water content (67% max), and since I feed my guys free choice it dries up a bit so probably water content is even lower by the time they eat it. It would be great if I could get away with just adding extra water to the bowl as I've been doing.

Also, it's not clear to me whether the bone content is really an issue. Phosphorus mainly comes from meat, especially liver. Bone has a lot of calcium and magnesium. Since both phos and mg can contribute to struvite stones, I think balancing bone % is going to require seeing the full analysis. I put in a records request today, since I didn't get all that much info from the hospital over the phone.
 

Talien

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Stress can also contribute to struvites. Has he been stressed, or have you been overly stressed and he's reacting to that?
 
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sophie1

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Stress can also contribute to struvites. Has he been stressed, or have you been overly stressed and he's reacting to that?
I asked my vet about stress. That is indeed the case! I’m doing a kitchen renovation which is a few weeks away from being done. In the midst of it my mother had a medical emergency and I moved myself and the cats to her home to take care of her for a month. Now back home.
 

Talien

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I asked my vet about stress. That is indeed the case! I’m doing a kitchen renovation which is a few weeks away from being done. In the midst of it my mother had a medical emergency and I moved myself and the cats to her home to take care of her for a month. Now back home.
Yeah that all can be a lot of stress for a Cat, especially if it's an easily startled or timid Cat. Even an outgoing Cat can find all that to be too much though.
 
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sophie1

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Chai is quite the alpha cat, and he really likes to be the boss of his territory. I know this has been hard on him.

Never heard of purr and heartbeat toys! I'll keep that in mind. I've got cat music and great idea, I've forgotten about that! Yes, fortunately my bedroom is well removed from the carnage and that's where I work, with my cats usually looking out the windows or snoozing on the bed. I'll redouble my efforts to spend time playing with him. Also keeping up a Feliway diffuser.

Feeding him 100% Royal Canin Urinary SO now. It makes me sad to withhold his raw food, which he has eaten all his life. I hope he can go back to eating it someday, but the vet wants him on the SO until we see what the followup testing shows.
 

Talien

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Chai is quite the alpha cat, and he really likes to be the boss of his territory. I know this has been hard on him.

Never heard of purr and heartbeat toys! I'll keep that in mind. I've got cat music and great idea, I've forgotten about that! Yes, fortunately my bedroom is well removed from the carnage and that's where I work, with my cats usually looking out the windows or snoozing on the bed. I'll redouble my efforts to spend time playing with him. Also keeping up a Feliway diffuser.

Feeding him 100% Royal Canin Urinary SO now. It makes me sad to withhold his raw food, which he has eaten all his life. I hope he can go back to eating it someday, but the vet wants him on the SO until we see what the followup testing shows.
The big thing about urinary food is it has higher acidity which makes it harder for struvites to form. Raw food is also more acidic than standard fare canned or dry food.
 
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sophie1

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Hmm. That would imply that pH is not the problem, since Chai has been nearly 100% raw fed for life. It comes down to the minerals and water content then, with a dose of stress.

During the kitchen renovation and while we were at my mother's, I was relying more than usual on Nature Variety Signature medallions. Just because it's a bit challenging to mix up homemade food without a kitchen. I remember reading somewhere that this food is very high in bone (~15%). Is that true??? Maybe that's the problem?
 

Talien

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Hmm. That would imply that pH is not the problem, since Chai has been nearly 100% raw fed for life. It comes down to the minerals and water content then, with a dose of stress.

During the kitchen renovation and while we were at my mother's, I was relying more than usual on Nature Variety Signature medallions. Just because it's a bit challenging to mix up homemade food without a kitchen. I remember reading somewhere that this food is very high in bone (~15%). Is that true??? Maybe that's the problem?
I'm not sure about the bone content as I've never fed the medallions to my Cats, but 15% sounds way too high. You should be able to contact the company and find out.
 
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sophie1

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The plot thickens. I got the medical records from the hospital, and these showed two surprising abnormal blood test values:

High magnesium of 0.61 (normal 0.3 - 0.5)
High creatinine of 1.9 (normal < 1.6)
He also was anemic, which is presumably a result of the hematuria.

Hopefully the creatinine is normal for a raw fed cat, but the magnesium is concerning - anyone have an idea what this means? Calcium was in the high normal range (1.32, normal 1.15 - 1.34). Will be discussing with vet next week. I'm thinking this is about too much bone in the diet...but if that's the case, why isn't this more common in raw fed cats? I've been adhering to a 10% bone content for homemade food, and mixing in with a commercial food that supposedly meets AAFCO guidelines. If 10% bone is too much for cats, then even Lisa Pierson's canonical recipe needs to be rethought.
 

Talien

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Bone does not normally contain such high amounts of magnesium so it shouldn't be from that. If it was me I'd be more concerned about the anemia.
 
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sophie1

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I got a reply from Nature Variety. Kudos to them for providing the information I asked for promptly and clearly, but...

I was shocked at the amount of bone in the Raw Signature chicken medallions. It's 15-19%(!!!!). I wonder if it's changed...pretty sure someone on the forum would have reported previously about that 19% bone content.

I also asked for DMB phosphorus, magnesium, and calcium. Phosphorus was 1.82% which is probably average for most wet foods. Magnesium and calcium were listed as 0.15% and 3.3%, respectively. Both of these are much higher than the AAFCO minimums....I couldn't find any information on maximum for these. Anyone know???

I checked out Balanced Blends, which I had tried previously as an alternative food of convenience. I liked them a lot but at that time their formulation had too much carbohydrate, and my cats didn't care for it. They've since eliminated the carbs except for a small amount of psyllium husk, added fish oils, and modified the recipe so that the food is appropriate for what they call "pre-CKD kitties". Phosphorus is 0.6% (DMB). They offer both raw with high pressure pasteurization, and low temperature (140 degree) cooked options. This sounds like an excellent choice for the long term, for both my cats.
 

Talien

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I got a reply from Nature Variety. Kudos to them for providing the information I asked for promptly and clearly, but...

I was shocked at the amount of bone in the Raw Signature chicken medallions. It's 15-19%(!!!!). I wonder if it's changed...pretty sure someone on the forum would have reported previously about that 19% bone content.

I also asked for DMB phosphorus, magnesium, and calcium. Phosphorus was 1.82% which is probably average for most wet foods. Magnesium and calcium were listed as 0.15% and 3.3%, respectively. Both of these are much higher than the AAFCO minimums....I couldn't find any information on maximum for these. Anyone know???

I checked out Balanced Blends, which I had tried previously as an alternative food of convenience. I liked them a lot but at that time their formulation had too much carbohydrate, and my cats didn't care for it. They've since eliminated the carbs except for a small amount of psyllium husk, added fish oils, and modified the recipe so that the food is appropriate for what they call "pre-CKD kitties". Phosphorus is 0.6% (DMB). They offer both raw with high pressure pasteurization, and low temperature (140 degree) cooked options. This sounds like an excellent choice for the long term, for both my cats.
15% bone is already a bit high, but 19%? That's.....a lot. I wouldn't feed that to my Cats either.

I'm quite happy with Balanced Blends after they changed their formula to cut out the plant based ingredients, my Cats don't have any problems with it either so it's what they get. The only issue I have is with the HPP raw, when you cut into the chubs the liquid tends to spray out so I always hold them over a metal bowl and puncture them from underneath with a paring knife, that way it squirts into the bowl instead of into the sink or onto the counter.
 
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sophie1

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Yes, and I wonder if Nature Variety has changed the formula recently, to cut costs. Bone is cheap after all. It would explain Chai's blood test abnormalities too.

Balanced Blends it shall be!!! Have you tried the cooked version? I rather like that idea, between Chai's UTI and the fact that I let my cats free feed.

I still have a freezerful of Hare Today products to get rid of first though, and I don't think it would be a good idea to feed them to Chai. Do any forum members live in the NYC area? Message me if you're interested in taking some of it off my hands.
 
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