Questions about raw feeding kitten

[lmw142]

Hi!

I have a three month old kitten. Long story short, my mom found her and she was very sick (respiratory infection, roundworms, coccidia, and ear mites.) I took her to the vet, and now everything is resolved except the coccidia, which we are on the second round of treatment for. I have been feeding her a rotation of canned foods, including Fancy Feast Classics, Nature's Variety Instinct and Pride, and Tiki Cat. My plan was to stick with that until I could move and buy a chest freezer to stock up and switch to prey model raw. However, I recently found little bits of plastic in a can of Nature's Variety Instinct, and after trying several times to contact the company without a response, I just don't think I can trust commercial pet foods anymore. Even if all of the ingredients seem fine, I have no way of knowing what is actually in the food I am feeding her, and I don't like that at all. 

I have been researching raw diets, and have decided that prey model raw is the style that would work the best for me, and I hope, for my kitten as well (she really likes the chunkier foods, plus she gets PureBites chicken treats and loves them.) But despite all my research, I still have some questions. 

1. I cannot seem to source secreting organs anywhere! I thought it would be easy, because I live in a rural area, but most places around here will sell me a whole cow or pig, but not just organs

. I did find beef and chicken livers, plus chicken hearts and gizzards at the local grocery store though. Would it be okay to feed without the secreting organ portion for a little while (I plan on moving in about 2 months to give a time frame.) Otherwise, is there another way that I can add in what would be missing without this? 

2. I understand that with the proper ratio of meat/bones/organs PMR is supposed to cover all of the nutritional requirements; however, I have also seen people supplementing certain things, like iodine, to make these diets closer to the commercial guidelines. If you're not supplementing, and not, for example, feeding thyroid, where is the iodine coming from? Are there things that should be supplemented? It also seems like it is difficult to supplement these nutrients in small enough amounts, and I was wondering if anyone who does this could give me a little more information on how they manage that. 

3. My third point isn't so much a question, but a problem I may encounter feeding a growing kitten. It seems like her food intake increases every week, and I know this will taper off when she gets older, but I have been thinking about how I would deal with this if I am preparing food in advance to freeze it. If necessary I could try to feed a bit of canned food if it doesn't seem like she is getting enough. 

That covers everything I can think of right now. Thank you for reading 

 

 

[cicoccabim]

Wow, a lot of questions. I think you can try to start feeding raw (but I have no experience of coccidia and how that effects the cat....). Start giving raw pieces as a treat, and when the stomach has adjusted to "candy-amounts" of raw then you could start slowly (!) replacing commercial wet with balanced raw. 

I feed all raw, part minced meat and part chunks of meat and whole bones. The experts in Sweden recommend that you always add iodine (I use algae) since the levels found in meat is to low to meet the basic needs. I add a tiny amount (calculated  by my food advisor!) just to make sure that there is no defiency, and I also feed organic egg yolks (some iodine in that). Not sure if that is needed if you feed whole prey and the cat eats the whole prey.

If you use different kinds of protein (3-4 every week) there is no risk of malnutrition since the different nutrient-profiles in the different meats normally covers all the nutrients needed. Vary white meat (rabbit, chicken, turkey) with red meats (beef, lamb, venison.....) to make sure that there´s enough iron in the food. You can add blood as well- 5% of the batch. In Sweden it can be found in the freezer in big supermarkets (normally you  have to ask for it!), or you can use bloodmeal to replace it. 

I add kidney and gizzard some times in the food, 1/2 -1/3 of the times. Liver is always included. Try to use different kinds of liver, since different sources contains different nutrients. So, I would start raw feeding with the ingredients you have, and add kidney later on. But- be aware that beef heart (if you can find it) is low in taurine compared to other hearts- so use more of it in a batch, or consider adding some extra taurine in that batch. (I do that when I feed a lot of lamb and rabbit meat).

Feeding growing kittens: it is recommended that they should eat as much as they want until you feel that they are adding on body fat. Raw fed cats are normally quite muscular. You can freeze the food in cupcake/muffin trays, and thaw as much as you need. That makes it easy to thaw a little more quite easy if you  notice that it is needed. I freeze portions in silicone moulds, and when removing the mould I store the food in big zip-lock bags. 

Hope that helped a bit. You seem to know what to do, and what you want for you cat! Knowledge about raw feeding is essential- I´ve done that for more than a year now, have a lot to learn about the details (will always be things to learn!), but have never regretted it! Nor has my cat.... she LOVES the food, and dances when it it feeding time! 

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• cicoccabim
• Aug 17, 2015

 

[schrody]

Hi there and congrats on transitionning to raw! 

1. Yeah it can be hard to find places that will sell you portions just for 1 cat. When I had just 1 cat I could not feed raw for this reason, I only could when I got my dog as well. Now with 3 pets it makes it easier. If you can get your hands on beef and chicken organs that's fine, altough a 3rd organ source would be good like rabbit (you can usually buy whole or half a rabbit with organs in) try to get a hold of green tripe if you can. You should also be able to find chicken kidneys when buying chicken carcasses. Ask for a full carcass with organs. Don't know where you are but here you can get them at any butcher. I always make sure they are organic, but that's up to you. 

2. Easy sources of iodine include chicken necks (thyroid is inside) which are also pretty much the best meaty bones for cats, or spirulina. Mine get PlaqueOff which is mainly made of spirulina, and is overall a good supplement to give, so they get iodine. If you feed fish they also get some, but I only feed salmon so it's not nearly enough. If you feed various meats and organs at the right ratio, as well as bones and/or egg shells, nutrients balance themselves out. Don't stress out too much over the exact amounts, just make sure to do regular blood work. I would do 2 or 3 times a year for the first couple of years to make sure you're on the right track, then yearly is fine. 

3. As for the portions, that's a good point. I adopted both of mine and my dog at adult or near adult size so I have never had this issue lol. You could either prepare portions for only a couple of weeks at the time, depending on the amounts of meat you buy... Or know how much more kitten has to eat while it's growing on average and go with that. The previous reply has a great tip with the muffin tray. 

 

[mschauer]

If you use different kinds of protein (3-4 every week) there is no risk of malnutrition since the different nutrient-profiles in the different meats normally covers all the nutrients needed. Vary white meat (rabbit, chicken, turkey) with red meats (beef, lamb, venison.....) 

Can you tell us how you came to this conclusion? In my experience with analyzing various combinations of muscle meat and organs from a variety of animal species I've found that while it is theoretically possible to meet the European and American nutrient standards for pet foods that way it is quite difficult to do. Certainly simply arbitrarily combining various meats and organs won't guarantee meeting those standards.

 

[mschauer]

 
Hi there and congrats on transitionning to raw! 

2. Easy sources of iodine include chicken necks (thyroid is inside) 

I've never seen the thyroid gland included with chicken necks. Are you referring to something other than what is normally sold as chicken necks?

 

[cicoccabim]

 
Can you tell us how you came to this conclusion? In my experience with analyzing various combinations of muscle meat and organs from a variety of animal species I've found that while it is theoretically possible to meet the European and American nutrient standards for pet foods that way it is quite difficult to do. Certainly simply arbitrarily combining various meats and organs won't guarantee meeting those standards.

This is according to two well known food advisor in Sweden. One of them helped me with my allergic cat and did all the math for her diet. So I consider them both very trustworthy and reliable.

 

[mschauer]

 

 
Can you tell us how you came to this conclusion? In my experience with analyzing various combinations of muscle meat and organs from a variety of animal species I've found that while it is theoretically possible to meet the European and American nutrient standards for pet foods that way it is quite difficult to do. Certainly simply arbitrarily combining various meats and organs won't guarantee meeting those standards.

This is according to two well known food advisor in Sweden. One of them helped me with my allergic cat and did all the math for her diet. So I consider them both very trustworthy and reliable.

OK, so you are relating personal opinions but not objective fact. That is perfectly OK as long as it is made clear.  I think common sense tells us that an arbitrary combination of muscle meat and organs will have a nutrient profile quite different from another arbitrary combination. And it isn't at all difficult to see how not all such combinations will result in a nutritionally complete food. 

 

[schrody]

 
I've never seen the thyroid gland included with chicken necks. Are you referring to something other than what is normally sold as chicken necks?

The thyroid gland is at the base of the chicken neck. Just cut under it I guess?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. I've never seen chicken necks sold on their own, I get the carcasses and cut or ask for the top half of the carcass only at the butcher's. 

 

[mschauer]

 

 
I've never seen the thyroid gland included with chicken necks. Are you referring to something other than what is normally sold as chicken necks?

The thyroid gland is at the base of the chicken neck. Just cut under it I guess?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. I've never seen chicken necks sold on their own, I get the carcasses and cut or ask for the top half of the carcass only at the butcher's. 

Oh, you're talking about a whole chicken carcass, not a dressed chicken or packaged chicken necks. Dressed chickens usually don't include the thyroid and packages of chicken necks I'm pretty sure never include the thyroid. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[lmw142]

Thanks for all of your input! 

The only grocery stores I have close by are wal-mart and kroger, Neither has an actual butcher, so buying whole carcasses is not something I can do unless I buy from local farmers, and they will only sell in large quantities that are just not practical for me. I am still searching for a source of kidneys, since the grocery stores do not carry them here. Other than that, I can get all of the components for prey model raw. 

I think once I switch completely to raw I am going to use the supplement from this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264199/homemade-supplement-for-raw

It is per 50 lbs of food and inlcudes: 

50 NOW 1,000mg Taurine capsules
20 NOW 150mcg standardized kelp tablets
10 Twinlabs 10mg manganese capsules
5 NOW 400iu dry vitamin E capsules
2 Natural Factors Hi-Potency 50mg B-complex capsules

I will be feeding a similar diet, though I want to do all PMR for now, with no ground. When I have a place to store it I may include some whole grinds from Hare Today, as well as some of the other organs they carry.

The last couple of days I have been introducing my kitten to raw and she loves it! She's eating small amounts of chicken thigh and gizzards along with her canned meals no problem. I've been doing that for two days. I made up some meals using the PMR guidelines of 80% meat/ 10% bone/ 5% liver/ 5% secreting organ just without the secreting organ for right now, since I can't find it. I'm going to feed her some of those along with her canned food this week, and hopefully by next week I will have a source of kidneys, and the supplements I listed above. I will also be feeding her egg and sardines to meet the requirements for choline, Vitamin D, and Omega-3s like I've heard others do. 

For right now I am only using chicken to get her used to it, but I also have access to beef, pork, lamb, turkey, and cornish hens. I'm hoping to also get some rabbit locally, but I haven't heard back from the farmer yet. 

Does this sound like a decent plan? 

 

[cicoccabim]

to explain my thoughts: if one batch of food is slightly imbalanced, then the next batch will be imbalanced in another way. And since I always have three different batches, and rotate these three batches within a week the food will be balanced in the long run. The same way- different batches will have more of one nutrient than another batch. Seen in a long run these imbalances will end up in a balanced diet. The nutrients to be extra careful with is liver (vitamin A- fat soluble) and iodine. I keep these two nutrients balanced every day. 

I use 4 kinds of liver, 4 kinds of heart and 5 kinds of protein (increasing it slowly due to allergy). I vary between red meat and white meat. I also feed free range meat only and  free range egg yolk.

And- I do trust these two persons, that have calculated thousands of raw cat food recepies, that have studied cat nutrition at the university, that never stops questioning facts about cat food, and that always want scientific proof. I have noticed that the thoughts about cat food, and how to make it complete, differs between Sweden and the US. Why I do not know. When I feel the need to do the math myself, I´ll do that, but until then I trust persons that never stops to investigate and wants to know more about it. I rest my case. And with that I leave the raw cat food department at the cat site! I have better things to do than being accused of not knowing what I feed my cat. 

TS- sorry for occupying your space!

 

[mschauer]

 
to explain my thoughts: if one batch of food is slightly imbalanced, then the next batch will be imbalanced in another way. And since I always have three different batches, and rotate these three batches within a week the food will be balanced in the long run. The same way- different batches will have more of one nutrient than another batch. Seen in a long run these imbalances will end up in a balanced diet. 

That would work IF it is known that the batches all taken together provide all needed nutrients. But how do you know that? How do you know that all batches aren't deficient in the same nutrient? The only way to know that is to carefully select the ingredients such that you know which ingredients make up for the deficiencies in the others. There is no way just randomly combining ingredients can accomplish that.

 I also feed free range meat only and  free range egg yolk.

Free range meats and eggs will have a much better nutrient profile than non-free range.  A diet composed of randomly selected free range ingredients would have a better chance of resulting in a balanced diet. But you didn't specify that as a requirement and there still is no guarantee of a complete nutrient profile.

 I have noticed that the thoughts about cat food, and how to make it complete, differs between Sweden and the US. Why I do not know. 

There may not be as many differences as you think. There are plenty of raw feeders in the US who subscribe to the "it all balances out in time" theory. It is arguably a flawed theory however regardless of what country you are in.

Are free range meats common in Sweden? They are very expensive in the US. That could be a difference right there. The factory raised meats commonly found in US grocery stores are from animals that have not been raised on a natural diet and the nutrient profile of the meat and organs is quite different from that of naturally raised (aka, free range) animals. I would be a lot more comfortable with a diet of randomly selected animal parts if they were exclusively from farm raised animals.

 

[mschauer]

 
Thanks for all of your input! 

The only grocery stores I have close by are wal-mart and kroger, Neither has an actual butcher, so buying whole carcasses is not something I can do unless I buy from local farmers, and they will only sell in large quantities that are just not practical for me. I am still searching for a source of kidneys, since the grocery stores do not carry them here. Other than that, I can get all of the components for prey model raw. 

I think once I switch completely to raw I am going to use the supplement from this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264199/homemade-supplement-for-raw

It is per 50 lbs of food and inlcudes: 

50 NOW 1,000mg Taurine capsules
20 NOW 150mcg standardized kelp tablets
10 Twinlabs 10mg manganese capsules
5 NOW 400iu dry vitamin E capsules
2 Natural Factors Hi-Potency 50mg B-complex capsules

I helped LDG with determining the supplements needed for her diet so  obviously it gets a thumbs up from me.

Just be sure not to add the kelp  to any of the whole prey grounds from Hare Today that include the thyroid gland.

 

[lmw142]

@cicoccabim  I appreciate all the advice you gave, and I hope you don't think I'm discrediting the way you feed your cats because I chose to use a supplement. The only free range pastured meat  I can get here is $5 a pound and I have to buy it in bulk, which I cannot afford right now. I do get free range eggs because my mom has a flock of chickens. You obviously do a great job taking care of your kitties, and you're working with professionals. I personally am trying to figure all this out on my own because I don't have a veterinary nutritionist available so I want to be extra careful and make sure my kitten gets everything she needs, especially since she has so much growing to do. 

@mschauer   I was really hoping you would see my thread and give some advice, because you've done so much work helping others on the forum create diets. Thank you!