Question for breeders

anakat

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Can I ask the breeders here a question?
I understand that you chose mates for your cats to improve the lines and breeding standards, but can it go too far?
Some friends and I went to the http://www.supremecatshow.org/ on Saturday.
We were quite upset by some of the things that had been done to some breeds of cat, the BSH were as flat faced as Persians used to be, the Persians were almost dish faced and the Siamese and Orientals had their ears almost sliding off their heads.



Where is the line between improving and ruining being drawn?

Apart from that it was great to see some beautiful cats and to meet Sar, Epona and Nate and we all had a really good day out.
 

abymummy

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Originally Posted by Anakat

Can I ask the breeders here a question?
I understand that you chose mates for your cats to improve the lines and breeding standards, but can it go too far?
Some friends and I went to the http://www.supremecatshow.org/ on Saturday.
We were quite upset by some of the things that had been done to some breeds of cat, the BSH were as flat faced as Persians used to be, the Persians were almost dish faced and the Siamese and Orientals had their ears almost sliding off their heads.



Where is the line between improving and ruining being drawn?

Apart from that it was great to see some beautiful cats and to meet Sar, Epona and Nate and we all had a really good day out.
BSH having flat faces???? EEEEKKKK! Are you sure it was a BSH and not an Exotic Shorthair? I agree that people can go too far in their quest for the "perfect" example of a breed - hence as you know my inherent dislike for the show Slinkys (Siamese, Orientals and variations thereof). There's a lot of things I dislike about the current Persians, ESH too which is most probably why I breed Abyssinians - besides the fact that I absolutely adore my chosen breed. Abyssinian breed standards have changed very little over the past 100 years

However, having said that - I really do disapprove of breeders who breed outside of the breed standards (with the exception of Trad Siamese breeders). I mean what's the point of breeding if you're not going to show?


That's just IMO anyway....
 

missymotus

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Originally Posted by Abymummy

BSH having flat faces???? EEEEKKKK! Are you sure it was a BSH and not an Exotic Shorthair?
I've never seen a flat faced BSH, Exotics have the same body type so perhaps that is what you saw.

To me the line between improving and ruining is when their health is affected, as with Persians always having runny eyes etc.
 

scamperfarms

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Some "doll" faces have the eye things too. I ave one lol

But..when a Persian has to have nasal surgey because its nasal passages are to narrow..ect thats getting to extreme IMO.. or when they snort and weeze all the time..
 

gayef

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A lot of breeders have IMO sacrificed health for conformation to a standard ~they~ believe is the "right" one for the breed they support. These breeders are the ones who propose amendments and changes to the breed standards. They are active in showing and in their local cat clubs, they participate in Breed Councils and become Voting Members so that they are able make these changes.

As a remedy, those of us (breeders) who don't like the changes we see in our chosen breeds need to become more proactive ... participate in the Breed Councils and use our power to vote so that we can stop this from happening.

But ... there is problem even with that since it seems that breeding, these days, is considered to be so immoral and irresponsible. We aren't seeing a lot of new breeders come into the picture. And those of us who have been at it for a while are growing tired, frustrated and quite irritated at the politics and backstabbing. We've tried to do what we can do to make the changes to promote health, but without larger numbers, we are doomed.
 

epona

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Unfortunately the BSH face does seem to be getting flatter. The attractiveness in that breed was always the big round face, yes the muzzle shouldn't be too long to detract from the overall roundedness, but it does alas seem to be disappearing. I saw a few where I had to check that they weren't actually Exotic SH.

I do think we're in danger of losing the essential elegance and grace of the feline form in some breeds.
 

urbantigers

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I was at the Supreme too but I don't recall seeing any really flat faced BSH, although I didn't spend a lot of time looking at them as I looked more at the semi longhaired breeds and the foreign breeds the other side of the hall.

I do believe that the extremes at both ends of the spectrum (the extreme siamese and the flat faced persians - and BSH if they're going that way) are taking things too far. I love the siamese purrsonality but do prefer the ears on the top of the head
There's only so far you can go and still call them cats, imo. I agree that the natural elegance of cats is being lost in some breeds
I'm not sure who to blame. Breeders? Judges for awarding top prizes to the extreme looks?
 

abymummy

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I'm really surprised that the BSH face is getting flatter - ESPECIALLY in the UK! No CFA Brit is flat faced, NONE (as far as I can see)!

Breed Standard for Brits:

GENERAL: the British Shorthair is compact, well-balanced and powerful, showing good depth of body, a full broad chest, short to medium strong legs, rounded paws, tail thick at base with a rounded tip. The head is round with good width between the ears, round cheeks, firm chin, medium ears, large round and well-opened eyes, and a medium broad nose. The coat is short and very dense. Females are less massive in all respects with males having larger jowls. This breed takes a full 3-5 years to reach full maturity and development. Individuals should convey an overall impression of balance and proportion in which no feature is exaggerated to foster weakness or extremes.

HEAD: round and massive. Round face with round underlying bone structure well set on a short thick neck. The forehead should be rounded with a slight flat plane on the top of the head. The forehead should not slope.

And last season's Best of Breed:

http://www.cfa.org/breeds/profiles/british.html

I must say though that the Brits are getting bigger and bigger!
CFA Breeders must be breeding for size now....

ETA - now that I have both CFA and the GCCF types on two tabs, I can see a distinct difference between the two registries...sad that such an old breed should be diverging in such a way.
 

epona

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Originally Posted by Abymummy

I'm really surprised that the BSH face is getting flatter - ESPECIALLY in the UK!
It's quite sad, they are the oldest British breed of cat, recognised and loved the world over - for the ROUNDNESS of the head. There is no other breed that looks quite like it, especially if you look at the mature studs with their huge jowls.

Originally Posted by Abymummy

I must say though that the Brits are getting bigger and bigger!
CFA Breeders must be breeding for size now....
They really aren't that big here, what are you feeding them?
Talking of size though, I saw the most ginormous red Maine Coone, he must have been over 20lbs - he filled that cage alright. Never seen anything like it, looked like a lion. I was really quite taken with him. Beautiful muzzle too, nothing extreme there, just a beautiful regal very large cat!
 

abymummy

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Originally Posted by Epona

They really aren't that big here, what are you feeding them?
Talking of size though, I saw the most ginormous red Maine Coon, he must have been over 20lbs - he filled that cage alright. Never seen anything like it, looked like a lion. I was really quite taken with him. Beautiful muzzle too, nothing extreme there, just a beautiful regal very large cat!
Considering that The UK has one of the few breeders left that has the complete Verismo lines, I'm not too surprised. Verismo produced the hugest but perfectly balanced MC's anywhere in the world. The granddaddy of those lines was called Moose and he was a gorgeous HUGE red Maine Coon
Quite a dream cat of mine.....
 

kitytize

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I live in region 4 and most of the MCs I see in adult classes are over 20lbs. The MC kittens are usually bigger than my Somalis! My husband wants a MC so bad. If we ever get one it won't be for showing. I can't imagine bathing that size of cat and carrying it to rings all day for 2 days.

I have not noticed flat faces on BSH. But I have overheard Persian breeders talking about their litters of kittens and that they have more that die than live in every litter. That to me is sad and imo you should not be breeding a cat if most of the kittens are not living. Hello? is that not a sign of serious health problems?!

I could go on and on about Persians but I won't today anyway. I haven't heard any horror stories of Siamese or Oriental type cats yet.
 

urbantigers

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This is the cat that won supreme exhibit (best in show)

http://www.supremecatshow.org/

The Supreme is THE big cat show over here - cats have to qualify to enter and there are about 1500 cats in total. It's fairly safe to say that the winner can be pretty much considered the best cat in the country (I know some show TICA or FIFe and not GCCF, but the GCCF is by far the largest cat registry over here and has way more shows than the others). So this is obviously what is considered the perfect siamese over here.
 

alleygirl

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Originally Posted by urbantigers

This is the cat that won supreme exhibit (best in show)

http://www.supremecatshow.org/

The Supreme is THE big cat show over here - cats have to qualify to enter and there are about 1500 cats in total. It's fairly safe to say that the winner can be pretty much considered the best cat in the country (I know some show TICA or FIFe and not GCCF, but the GCCF is by far the largest cat registry over here and has way more shows than the others). So this is obviously what is considered the perfect siamese over here.
All I can say is.. thank god people are still breeding traditional siamese to preserve the look.
 

hopehacker

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Originally Posted by urbantigers

This is the cat that won supreme exhibit (best in show)

http://www.supremecatshow.org/

The Supreme is THE big cat show over here - cats have to qualify to enter and there are about 1500 cats in total. It's fairly safe to say that the winner can be pretty much considered the best cat in the country (I know some show TICA or FIFe and not GCCF, but the GCCF is by far the largest cat registry over here and has way more shows than the others). So this is obviously what is considered the perfect siamese over here.
I have to say that cat is WAY too extreme. To me, it doesn't look like a cat, it looks like an Alien.
 

sharky

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Yikes I hope enough folks say ENOUGH to that look ...
 

yosemite

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OMG - I was actually shocked when I saw that picture load. IMO, that is one "fugly" cat. I'm sure glad we still have kitties like our Bijou and Mika (and George "sigh") around. The judges that voted that cat Best of Show need to have a whack upside their heads.
 

rapunzel47

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

OMG - I was actually shocked when I saw that picture load. IMO, that is one "fugly" cat. I'm sure glad we still have kitties like our Bijou and Mika (and George "sigh") around. The judges that voted that cat Best of Show need to have a whack upside their heads.
I'll say! How, how, HOW can anyone who knows and loves cats find that even remotely attractive? That poor creature!
 
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