Question about genetica kittens siamese cats

Kira94

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Hi,

I was wandering what points and appearance the kittens would have when you match a seal point thai siamese (with both parents seal point) with a blue tabby point traditional siamese.
Since the mother is seal point, whould her kittens be automatically be seal point too? Or can kittens get the blue colors from the father? Also regarding the tabby pattern, is this a recessive gene?
 

Maurey

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The agouti (tabby) gene is dominant. The dilute gene is recessive, and blue is just dilute black/seal.

All kittens will be seal point or seal lynx point carrying dilute, unless one of the queen's parents carries dilute (are any of the queen's grandparents dilute?) and has passed it on to her, or both the queen and stud carry the genes for chocolate or cinnamon.
 
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Kira94

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Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure whether one of her grandparents was dilute, since she has no pedigree. I only know both of her parents were seal. The stud has a pedigree and one of his grandparents was chocolate point.

It's interesting to know that the dilute gene is recessive, since I've read somewhere that the color of the point is determined by the color of the mother, and that the dilute point was dominant in that case (if she was a blue point) for male kittens.
 

Maurey

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No one parent determines colour. Both are always relevant.

If she has no pedigree, why is she being bred? Has she been genetically tested and screened for all the relevant issues in the breed? Is she a good example of the breed? Are her parents alive and well?

Siamese and orientals are fairly notorious amongst breeders for health issues at the moment, to the extent that the expected lifespan is only around 8-10 years. Breeding for health is paramount, especially in a breed that’s currently in a rough place.
 
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Kira94

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Her mother has a pedigree, but her father not. That's why she also doesn't have one. I will know the results of her DNA test within some days. Her parents are well, the only little remark I can give on her appearance, is that she has some white hairs in her face (see picture).

Nevertheless, I'm only considering a nest with her, so no real plans yet, since as you mentioned, I still have to check some important aspects.
 

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Willowy

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No one parent determines colour. Both are always relevant.
Eh, could be said either way. The mother alone determines the base color for male kittens, but that doesn't include genes like tabby, dilute, etc.

Anyway, yeah, all kittens will be seal or blue point, mostly tabby but there could be a solid if the father carries solid. They can only be blue if the mother carries the dilute gene. And a small possibility that both carry chocolate or cinnamon, even smaller possibility of lilac or fawn (dilutes of chocolate and cinnamon).

So the most likely scenario is a litter of all seal lynx points.
 

Maurey

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The mother alone determines the base color for male kittens, but that doesn't include genes like tabby, dilute, etc.
That’s only really relevant for the O gene. Not all matings involve sex linked red.
 

Lotsofspots

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That’s only really relevant for the O gene. Not all matings involve sex linked red.
yes O is the only sex linked gene, kitten colours will be as said in the first response and apply to both sexed since there is no red in this litter, except that ‘recessive is forever’ so the dilute can come from further than just the grandparents.

as she’s no papers mum needs to be spayed and not bred from.
 

Meowmee

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Hi,

I was wandering what points and appearance the kittens would have when you match a seal point thai siamese (with both parents seal point) with a blue tabby point traditional siamese.
Since the mother is seal point, whould her kittens be automatically be seal point too? Or can kittens get the blue colors from the father? Also regarding the tabby pattern, is this a recessive gene?
It depends on what they inherited from their parents/ grandparents etc. I think for the color of the points. Quinn’s breeder told me although his parents were both seal, the kittens could be seal or blue, so I assume they carried dilute and there was a great grandparent who was bluepoint.

There is a site to calculate results. I added what you noted in with dad carries chocolate and mom as non dilute and non dilute carrier, her as solid and him as tabby non solid carrier- it says:

Kittens will be shorthaired. Toms can be black. Mollies can be black. Kittens can be mackerel tabby or classic tabby. All kittens will be colorpoints. Kittens will have no white spotting.

Cat Coat Calculator | Sparrow's Garden


cfa.org says males get both color genes from the mother, so will be her color or one of her colors if tortoiseshell, and can be dilute:

Basic Feline Genetics – The Cat Fanciers' Association, Inc
  1. Male kittens always obtain both color genes from the dam. The male offspring in a litter will always be either the color of the dam (or one of the colors in the case of parti-colors) or the dilute form of the dam’s color. See the statement on dilutes for more information (see #21 & #24)

  2. it also says the dilute gene must be present in mom and dad’s pedigree for dilute kittens. So if she carries dilute maybe some blue point kittens. Tabby is usually dominant but I am not sure if all will be lynx point. If he carries solid as well there could be pure solid colorpoint kittens. She is a mix so we don’t know what else she may carry maybe.
 

Lotsofspots

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Unfortunately the website quoted has several incorrect facts through their article

Each trait is inherited separately. Colour, Dilute, Inhibitor (silver / smoke), sex.

Black/chocolate/cinnamon are inherited one from each parent.

Kittens can be mackerel tabby or classic tabby
Without knowing which tabby pattern is present and being carried you cannot possibly say which they will produce.
Classic is recessive, both sides need to carry to produce this.
 

Meowmee

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Unfortunately the website quoted has several incorrect facts through their article

Each trait is inherited separately. Colour, Dilute, Inhibitor (silver / smoke), sex.

Black/chocolate/cinnamon are inherited one from each parent.



Without knowing which tabby pattern is present and being carried you cannot possibly say which they will produce.
Classic is recessive, both sides need to carry to produce this.
Are you referring to the cat fancy article? It is odd that such a well known cat association would have so many errors, It seems to say though that males can’t inherent color from the dad. Yes, I suspected that about the tabby pattern and thought lynx point mackerel is most likely so selected mackerel for both It says they can be either I assume according to what pattern the father is and what they carry but they don’t have a selection for carriers of classic.
 

Willowy

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The black/red gene is linked to the X chromosome in cats, males only inherit the Y chromosome from their dads so they have to get the black/red gene from their mothers :dunno: .

The other color modifiers like dilute, chocolate mutation, colorpoint, tabby/solid, etc. are not X-linked.
 

Maurey

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The black/red gene is linked to the X chromosome in cats, males only inherit the Y chromosome from their dads so they have to get the black/red gene from their mothers :dunno:
Black isn’t sex-linked, only red is. Chocolate and cinnamon are on the same locus as black, the B locus. As such, none of the 3 are sex-linked because they’re not located on the X or Y chromosome.

ETA: this might help.

The B locus:
1637657066666.png

The O locus:
1637657142062.png

note that O is red (which “covers up” the b locus phenotype), and o is lack of colour expression on the locus, not black, specifically. o just allows the colour underneath to be expressed, more or less.

An o/o female and an o male lack red pigment, so they express whatever base colour is on their B locus, whether black, chocolate, or cinnamon. For this reason, you can also have black, chocolate, or cinnamon based tortie cats (or their dilutes), based on what genes the cat has on the B locus.
 
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Maurey

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Yes, but in plain language, whether a cat is red or not-red is sex-linked :dunno: . Whether the sire is red or not, it won't make any difference to the color of the male kittens.
Sure? Nobody has disputed red is sex linked. But I fail to see how this is relevant for a litter not involving red. Or how it affects B locus inheritance. There’s a big difference between only one parent affecting the colour of a specific gender of kittens, and a specific colour being sex linked.
 
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