Question About Breeding Short Tailed Cats

fostersrule

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I know that breeding two tailless cats is a big no-no but what about two rumpy risers?

I am not looking to breed. There is a lady in the area trying to create a new breed and I've noticed she is breeding cats with very short tails. I thought this was to be discouraged but all I can find online is that two completely tailless cats should not be bred. American Bobtails seem to be okay. I'm hoping to get some insight on this.

It's also worth noting that her "new breed" is pretty much just regular domestic shorthairs. They look no different than any of my fosters.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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F fostersrule - The mutations of the T allele aren't breed-specific, although most of the more recent studies do center specifically on the Manx, the Japanese Bobtail, the Pixie-Bob, the Kurilian Bobtail and the American Bobtail, such as the one authored by Kati Buckingham some four years ago. While there are attendant factors at play, the T mutation in Manx cats breaks down to 95% / 5%, with the overwhelming majority of those who are short-tail phenotypes being heterozygous for T mutations, and hence, prone to spina bifida and the associated medical maladies.

That not withstanding, cats employ their tails for balance, and intentionally breeding for shorter tails is strongly opposed by all the Breed Councils - as far as I'm aware - within the CFA, TICA, FIFe and an host of other organisations. Breeding cats without a solid comprehension of genetics is little else but "back yard breeding."

Hopefully abyeb abyeb StefanZ StefanZ Alejandra Rico Alejandra Rico and posiepurrs posiepurrs will weight in here as well.
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fostersrule

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The mutations of the T allele aren't breed-specific, although most of the more recent studies do center specifically on the Manx, the Japanese Bobtail, the Pixie-Bob, the Kurilian Bobtail and the American Bobtail, such as the one authored by Kati Buckingham some four years ago. While there are attendant factors at play, the T mutation in Manx cats breaks down to 95% / 5%, with the overwhelming majority of those who are short-tail phenotypes being heterozygous for T mutations, and hence, prone to spina bifida and the associated medical maladies.

That not withstanding, cats employ their tails for balance, and intentionally breeding for shorter tails is strongly opposed by all the Breed Councils - as far as I'm aware - within the CFA, TICA, FIFe and an host of other organisations. Breeding cats without a solid comprehension of genetics is little else but "back yard breeding."

Hopefully abyeb abyeb StefanZ StefanZ Alejandra Rico Alejandra Rico and posiepurrs posiepurrs will weight in here as well.
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Thank you. The "new breed" is called Courtney Cats. They have a fb page if you wanted to take a look. So would it be wrong to breed two short tailed cats together? Does that carry the same weight as breeding two completely tailless cats? She just had another litter and there were only 2 kittens which made me wonder if there had been more that weren't viable. I know cats can have litters of just two (had a foster give birth to two this year) but it is on the smaller side and I wasn't sure if maybe it had something to do with the queen and stud both being short tailed.
 

abyeb

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F fostersrule - The mutations of the T allele aren't breed-specific, although most of the more recent studies do center specifically on the Manx, the Japanese Bobtail, the Pixie-Bob, the Kurilian Bobtail and the American Bobtail, such as the one authored by Kati Buckingham some four years ago. While there are attendant factors at play, the T mutation in Manx cats breaks down to 95% / 5%, with the overwhelming majority of those who are short-tail phenotypes being heterozygous for T mutations, and hence, prone to spina bifida and the associated medical maladies.

That not withstanding, cats employ their tails for balance, and intentionally breeding for shorter tails is strongly opposed by all the Breed Councils - as far as I'm aware - within the CFA, TICA, FIFe and an host of other organisations. Breeding cats without a solid comprehension of genetics is little else but "back yard breeding."

Hopefully abyeb abyeb StefanZ StefanZ Alejandra Rico Alejandra Rico and posiepurrs posiepurrs will weight in here as well.
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:yeah:

I can't really add anything. Just to elaborate, we usually think of Manx being the tailless breed with all the health problems (thanks to that semi-lethal incomplete dominant M gene), but shortening of the spine results in health problems in the bobtailed breeds, as well, most notably spinal bifidia. American Bobtails are also sometimes born completely tailless, although this is off-standard. I think, and I may be wrong, that with Japanese Bobtails it's different because they actually have all their vertebrae, they're just smaller. I don't think that's probably the case with these cats, though, since that's unique to the JBT.
 

Alejandra Rico

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I have checked that Facebook page and have mixed feelings about all this. To be honest, I partly understand this person: that "couple" of cats, if we ignore the white in their coats, could resemble a bobxat ir a lynx in the same way a bengal can resemble a leopard. Many people would like this kind of cat, especially if the "breeder" could manage to get rid of the white and develop a bolder face mask and some ear tufts, and probably a semi-long hair coat instead of a short one.
That is as far as I can go un putting myself into her shoes. The problems I see are wide and diverse. To begin with –and I have no evidence of this, but just my intuition– those two cats look like brother and sister or parent-kitten. That is a huge NO for me at any case, but especially when one is working with cats that do not have a pedigree and, therefore, whose genetics are unknown. Inbreeding is just something I cannot approve, and the consequences of this practice can be terrible.
Secondly, and 1CatOverTheLine 1CatOverTheLine has already mentioned this, intentionally breeding a cat for being somehow "handicaped" is something that I consider ethically and moraly questionable. Lynxs and bobcats have evolved to have those short tails for a reason, and domestic cats have evolved to have long tails for a reason. Messing up with that is not wise, as body proportions and the activities performed by these to species are very different. It would be like breeding hens to look like ostrich.
Is It really bad to breed to short tailed cats? Probably It is, because as far as we know, those two cats could be carrying some other genes that could not be a good combo. Malformations are likely to be linked among them by poligenes, which is what makes It so difficult to breed short-anything cats, because It is difficult to get rid of all those other genes linked to whatever cats are bred for.
So, to answer your question, yes, It is probably a very bad idea. maybe not as bad as breeding cats without tail, but bad enough. However, there is little you can do about it, I think. If these cats are not abused according to the laws of the state where this cats are, she can do anything she wants with them :(
At least, the cats look healthy and happy which is something, I suppose.
 
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StefanZ

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Yes IF some foetuses dies in vomb - two alive could be a likely result.
We cant know for sure as yet esp as we dont know exactly which of the mutations it is.

Some are lethal if homozygt others not
 

StefanZ

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I wanted to mention one aspect NOT in question here, but for breeding overall, and somewhat similiar to the problem here.

We take a desire for short tails, in a breed / population, where all lenghts of tails may occur.

This total population also contains all sorts of genes. Good, neutral and bad genes. Ie the gene game is very wide.

But as soon we take a selection, the gene game will shrink, not only with the tail lengh, but also other genes as well.

Ie, there is some correlation between tail lengh and other genes variety. No total correlation, but clearly bigger than null.

And thus, a selection to get very short tail genes, gives not only very short tail sgenes, but also, cuts off much of the natural wideness and variety in other genes as well...

Conclusion? Be careful with selective breeding, and avoid any extremes.


This was one of the lessons from a course on breeding, by the swedish expert Ulrika Olsson.
 

posiepurrs

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Truthfully, I think she is playing with fire. From her posts it doesn't sound like she has a good grip on genetics or even feline husbandry. Not to mention to create a bred takes years of well documented scientific breeding and a lot of work to get it recognized. It isn't just throwing a few cats together and hoping for a specific look.
 
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