Problems with introductions

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kenamacVT

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Status Update. Since we had several peaceful nose to nose interactions with all 3 boys present which included having treats together and play 'catch the toy on the end of string toy', we have been gradually lengthening the time they are all loose at the same time. There is still only a fragile truce between Loki (Bengal1) and Leo (B2) where Loki will chase Leo up the stairs (without overt aggression), & mostly Loki is satisfied just to see him run up the stairs & doesn't follow, and sometimes he follows him to the doorway of his room with out crossing the threshold. We call this progress, but is it?

Also we have had plans to be away for 2 weeks over Christmas for a long time & plan to go even though I'm nervous about it. We have a very competent 'live in' pet sitter to stay while we are gone (we also have a dog & too many plants). She has family near by & I trust her, but we are having her keep the cats separate in their own spaces to avoid clashes. I am a little concerned we will loose the gains we have made or maybe it will 'make the heart grow fonder'. Any thoughts?
 

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Status Update. Since we had several peaceful nose to nose interactions with all 3 boys present which included having treats together and play 'catch the toy on the end of string toy', we have been gradually lengthening the time they are all loose at the same time. There is still only a fragile truce between Loki (Bengal1) and Leo (B2) where Loki will chase Leo up the stairs (without overt aggression), & mostly Loki is satisfied just to see him run up the stairs & doesn't follow, and sometimes he follows him to the doorway of his room with out crossing the threshold. We call this progress, but is it?

Also we have had plans to be away for 2 weeks over Christmas for a long time & plan to go even though I'm nervous about it. We have a very competent 'live in' pet sitter to stay while we are gone (we also have a dog & too many plants). She has family near by & I trust her, but we are having her keep the cats separate in their own spaces to avoid clashes. I am a little concerned we will loose the gains we have made or maybe it will 'make the heart grow fonder'. Any thoughts?
So that means Loki would be alone for 2weeks? Or is the sitter staying at your house?

Last year I went nowhere because Timmy was pretty new to the clowder and I didnt want him by himself - I usually spend a couple of nights away at my Cousins for Christmas so that's just me.... cats don't like change as we know but I'd be concerned for separation anxiety (2 weeks is a long time)
 
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kenamacVT

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Thanks Kwik, yes the sitter will be staying here & she is a school teacher so she won't be working for most of our time away. Also Loki is very social when it comes to people. He never misses a chance to greet visitors! That being said I'll still worry. I'll stay in touch and can come home early if necessary!
 

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Thanks Kwik, yes the sitter will be staying here & she is a school teacher so she won't be working for most of our time away. Also Loki is very social when it comes to people. He never misses a chance to greet visitors! That being said I'll still worry. I'll stay in touch and can come home early if necessary!
Oh as long as she's staying at the house Loki will be alright ... the 2 boys have each other and she'll play with them and give them attention too,,right?

You might have a little set back when you get back but you know - 2 steps back then 5 forward- it'll be alrigh❤
 

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“The 3 cat problem”

Sorry, this is so long, but maybe some of you will get to the bottom & leave suggestions & comments.

(A preamble to this thread & Pics can be found in the “New Cats on the Block” thread.)
I have 3 wonderful recue kitties each coming to me from very different circumstances all within the last 6 months. Moxy died in Jan 2024 (see “new member forum). Loki arrived (Bengal 1) in April 24, Smoki and Leo (Bengal 2) Sep 24. When I was growing up (50-60’s) most people had multiple cats by ‘accident’ and were just brought together with no intros & left to sort it out as best they could. But I know now from reading cat forums & friends & family with experience that cat introductions could be tricky. So we converted one of our now empty bedrooms to a ‘cat’ room & went looking for another young Bengal as a buddy for Loki. Moxy had been a Bengal (also a rescue) & I fell in love with the breed. Available Bengal rescues are very hard to come by in the NE. So, after a couple of months with no luck, I widened my search to other cats and found a ‘2’ yro (no DOB & our vet puts him closer to 4) tabby who’d been confined at the shelter for what I was told was 4mo. He seemed like a nice cat and his circumstances pulled at my heart, so I adopted him in early Sep. and changed his name to Smoki (the overworked foster mom said he had been abandoned & came to her without a name). It turned out that, though he was fine & friendly with his caregiver, & though he was one of 9 other fosters kept in separate cages due to lack of enough foster homes and that had actually been in a cage for 9 mo., when I released him into his new home, he literally went catatonic! For 4 days he hardly moved, would not let anyone touch him, took no food, & did not use the litter box at all although he did drink water. With great difficulty we got him to the vet to make sure he wasn’t blocked & otherwise healthy.

To complicate matters more, 2 days after bringing him home (Sept.), I was offered a young Bengal (2yr) from a desperate, soon to be mother who found me through local search on Adopt-a-Pet by way of a search that I didn’t know was still active, and I adopted him as well. His name is Leo. Both new cats are neutered males. And since the new ones (all vet records were in order & confirmed by me & my vet) had no territorial claims (well Smoki had claimed a tiny space under a piece of exercise equipment), we decided to put them together under supervision(cameras) in the cat room. Amazingly they got along fine. Loki had had free use of the rest of the house since about 1 hr. after he arrived in April. Leo actually helped Schmoki come out of his shell! Bill & I are empty nesters with 2 empty bedrooms, so we put a couple of cameras in with the 2 new cats along with everything else a cat needs, in one of those rooms. Within 1 month they were fast friends, so we then started the process to introducing them to introduce them to Loki.

We had had a plan for a slow intro, but unfortunately, after spending a couple of weeks gradually getting used to each other through the screen door so they can see and smell each other etc., Loki (Bengal 1) managed to get by me and attacked Leo (2nd Bengal) with such vehemence that I was sure Loki would kill the other cat if he had the chance! So now we had to start over. Loki had never been at all aggressive. I had traveled out of state to my sister’s house to find him & I had introduced him to my sister's cats with no problems. He also had been buddies with the cat his foster mom owned, so I thought he would be fine. Big mistake #1. In addition, I had been told, and I had had experience with this also, that neutered boys were more likely to become ‘bros’. Unfortunately, by bringing home Leo I now had 3 neutered males. Big mistake # 2!

And since we knew we had to start again & I finally realized that I needed help. And since the problem seemed to only be between the 2 Bengals, I tried to get help from a Bengal forum called “Bengal Help & Advice”, but I found out later that that group until recently was called "Bengal Cat Lovers". It seemed that the members have not yet adopted the spirit of the new name and ignored my plea for help. The site does hosts an incredible number of gorgeous cat & kitten pictures to admire there. which ordinarily I appreciate, but I was looking for help, so I turned to my vet and a vet tech friend, podcasts from cat behaviorists, & cat forums including this forum.

So far, we have tried a couple of our vet’s recommendations, which came with the disclaimer that she is not a cat behaviorist, and that these were the tools available to their practice. One was that we indeed needed to start over with the slow no physical contact for a couple of weeks & add a couple of multi-cat pheromone diffusers on both sides of the door. Two; observe the behavior of the two Bengals for signs of aggressive or fear reactions during the cooling off period. We had determined that Leo displayed more of a fear-based aggression and Loki’s aggression was territorial. Smoki by this time had become Leo’s buddy & they played extensively. He’d come out of his shell completely & displayed an amazing amount of confidence & he now only seemed to care about the fact that he had a home and a fearless freedom he’d not known for a long while. Before his confinement, he was trapped in the wild and assumed feral. But once he had confidence in his caregivers, he became the affectionate in a way that told them that he had had a home at some time. And during this process, & from Smoki’s & Loki’s behavior, we were pretty confident that a supervised visit between Smoki & Loki would be a good place to start. The meeting went like this: Smoki’s demeaner was totally one of self-confidence, & in Loki’s presence seem to be saying something like, “I’ve experienced lots more scary things than you, so how about you leave me in peace & I’ll return the favor” & Loki turned & walked away! That was that. Now Smoki enjoys lots of play time with Leo at night & seems to be totally at home with Loki (no playing yet). We now refer to him as the Diplomat.

The vet also suggested that we might try gabapentin when we started doing their first new meet & greet with Leo which we tried. Sadly, that backfired. On the dosage the vet prescribed Loki became a “mean drunk”. We could have tried lower doses, but I just generally didn’t think it was a good approach for these cats. So, after a lot of thought & online research we decided to try her 2nd medical intervention which was to start Bengal 1 & Bengal 2 on fluoxetine (Prozac for cats) & wait another month. That month took us to last week. We have had 4 short meetings (<1hr). 2 of the meetings went well although our vet suggested we have brooms available in case Loki became aggressive & when that did happen, it was my husband Bill who ended up intervening by separating the two by placing his broom between them shoeing Loki away using a gentle push with the broom. In this case Leo had held his ground & managed to look serene while Loki tensed & his hair came up. Loki seemed to understand & left the room.

As it happens, I had not read this thread yet, so didn’t understand how this this might appear to the cats! The next day during the time we set aside for free access to Leo & Smoki we discovered that one of the cats had peed on our bed on Bill’s side! Fortunately, I had a waterproof pad below the linens so only had to change the linens, unfortunately that included a king down quilt! Also, we weren’t sure who ‘done it’, because both Bengals had had access since we made the bed. For a lot of reasons, I pretty much knew it was not Smoki or Loki. But we vowed to keep our door shut at all times, & did not reprimand any of them for obvious reasons. The next day, Bill forgot to close it during a critical time. However, this did allow me to catch Leo in the act, so now we knew the ‘who done it’. I grabbed Leo’s scruff and deposited him outside the room with a strong NO! (I may have raised my voice a tiny bit), but nothing more. I had suspected it was him as he’s the 2 yro (Loki & Smoki are 4) & I really didn’t think it was Loki, he has his own issues, but this wasn’t one of them. My amateur psych skills told me that this was Leo’s way of claiming Bill as his champion/protector, but who knows…

And now what? One of us will surely make a mistake again with the door (we’ve added a waterproof layer to the top). And I know this situation may continue for some time, and I really want to succeed, but this is stressful for all participants (except maybe Smoki) and it’s gone on for months already. In the last few days, we’ve tried a couple more times and there has been some more success where they are all free. Then the next time, Loki will make overt aggressive moves & in those occasions I remove him by taking ahold of him by his scruff while staying calm & put him in another room & close the door for 10-15 min. I don’t want to l more lose any of them because they’re my kitties now & they have all had a tuff enough life so far, but we really can’t afford expensive cat therapy. We gladly appreciate comments & suggestions on what to do/expect going forward! Thank You!
Wow. What a similar situation that we are currently going through as well. Took in a stray at 4 weeks old with no mother. He is now 8 months and we think he is part Maine coon. Seemed a bit aggressive so we thought maybe a new friend would help. We adopted a 6 month old sweet boy who just wants to play and have fun. Things are not good with the resident cat. Tried to attack him about 2 weeks after new kitten was here. We have routed back to no see and scent swapping. The resident kitten is also now on Gabapentin. 25 mg twice a day. This is really rough I agree. Mane will try to open the door a crack again in a week or two
 
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kenamacVT

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Oh as long as she's staying at the house Loki will be alright ... the 2 boys have each other and she'll play with them and give them attention too,,right?

You might have a little set back when you get back but you know - 2 steps back then 5 forward- it'll be alrigh❤
Yes&yes :runningcat::dizzycat:
 

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Wow. What a similar situation that we are currently going through as well. Took in a stray at 4 weeks old with no mother. He is now 8 months and we think he is part Maine coon. Seemed a bit aggressive so we thought maybe a new friend would help. We adopted a 6 month old sweet boy who just wants to play and have fun. Things are not good with the resident cat. Tried to attack him about 2 weeks after new kitten was here. We have routed back to no see and scent swapping. The resident kitten is also now on Gabapentin. 25 mg twice a day. This is really rough I agree. Mane will try to open the door a crack again in a week or two
Welcome to TCS Myurasits Myurasits Nice to have you join us
 
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kenamacVT

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Wow. What a similar situation that we are currently going through as well. Took in a stray at 4 weeks old with no mother. He is now 8 months and we think he is part Maine coon. Seemed a bit aggressive so we thought maybe a new friend would help. We adopted a 6 month old sweet boy who just wants to play and have fun. Things are not good with the resident cat. Tried to attack him about 2 weeks after new kitten was here. We have routed back to no see and scent swapping. The resident kitten is also now on Gabapentin. 25 mg twice a day. This is really rough I agree. Mane will try to open the door a crack again in a week or two
Yes, it's been a rocky road for us! I hope the gabapentin works for you. I believe our vet prescribed too high a dose for Loki because it didn't really calm him down, but it made him stagger like a drunk and he still went after Leo. I did not want to mess around trying different doses so we opted to Fluoxetine (Prozac for cats),though this take time to begin working (1 month), but we had to start over anyways. & I will have to wean off if once we have reached a point of comfort for us all. It seems to be working but we had another incident this morning! I do think things are going in the right direction though. This morning when Loki threatened Leo, I picked him up by the scruff which subdues him immediately (he's a big cat so I support his bottom. I imagine your yours is too). After ~10 minutes I let him out again & I actually was even able to get them all involved with a catch the toy game! All's quiet now. Being calm yourself is a big part and not easy (see Alldara above!)😻 Good Luck!
 
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kenamacVT

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Wow! I just noticed I'm now a 'Young Cat!' :clapcat:
 

Myurasits

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Welcome to TCS Myurasits Myurasits Nice to have you join us
Tonight after 1 month of scent swapping and feeding on opposite sides of the door my resident cat is sleeping on the blanket the new cats sleeps on in his safe room. Do you think this is a good sign?
 

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Tonight after 1 month of scent swapping and feeding on opposite sides of the door my resident cat is sleeping on the blanket the new cats sleeps on in his safe room. Do you think this is a good sign?
Yes!
 
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kenamacVT

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Sorry to take so long writing an update! We are still working towards a peaceful 3 cat household. All the kitties share free range of our house during the day, but there is still considerable tension between the 2 Bengals. Generally, they coexist with no issues, but occasionally Loki (B1, a 5yo & 1st to be rescued 4/10/24) goes into stalk mode targeting Leo to which Leo (B2) then responds with fearful growls & hisses once he's noticed the stalk. At which point either I or my husband reply by sternly telling them to back off &/or with a distraction, which breaks up the interaction. Loki no longer goes into full attack mode, & even in this case, rarely has his hair up or is overly aggressive. It’s more like he still feels the need to let Leo know who the boss is. And now there are also times when Loki flops down in front of Leo (adopted Sep 2024) & displays ‘let’s play’ signals. Leo more often now responds to this calmly & sometimes he will also lie down; they then exchange squinty eyed glances & then Loki will usually get up & slowly walk away.

Meanwhile, Smoki, who I think is actually the real boss, almost always comes to Leo’s defense by calmly walking into their midst & sitting down; he will then exchange squints with them both and start to groom himself until either Leo or Loki walks away! Smoki (~ 3 yrs old, a tabby was rescued Sept 2024 & had previously spent 9 mo. in a cage) is friendly with Loki but is completely bonded to Leo. They play and romp around the house ½ the day, and most of the night in their room & they often share the same cat bed when sleeping. Loki sometimes seems to watch them enviously, like he’d really like to join in. We still feel like Loki’s (a breeder in his past life) biggest problem is that he never learned to play with other cats, & now sometimes makes clumsy efforts to play with Smoki. But though it’s slow progress it is still progress!

My ongoing questions remain. 1. Are there any ways to help Loki play more? We do play with them all at the same time & separately, but our main goal is for them to play with each other. Neither I nor my husband can come close to the rambunctious play that Smoki & Leo get up to, but Loki still spends most of his time sleeping which is the main reason behind adopting the others! & 2) When is it better to leave them alone when there is a standoff? And 3) Will we ever be able to trust them to share the house at night or at home alone without separating them? I'm pretty sure that depends a lot on what they do if we leave them alone during a standoff. Also, I am cautiously trying to wean Loki off the Fluoxetine which has increased Loki’s drowsiness much more than Leo’s in hopes that he will regain some of his energy without increasing his aggression towards Leo. Thanks All!
 

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You are making amazing progress and doing everything by the book or pretty closely.

One thing I learned when volunteering at a shelter, when playing with the orphaned/unsocialized kittens you need to somehow signal that they got too rough and playtime is over. For example, to encourage them not to bite my hands I was instructed not to leave but the hold my hand in a fist and not move. That way they saw I was still present but communicated that I'm not playing any more. I'd start interacting with them again only when they started playing without the biting or scratching. In theory this creates a "not biting or scratching = more attention and treats" action-result association in their little cat minds.

That was for kittens specifically but I've heard of using the same immediately reward when they do good and immediately disengage when they're bad strategy to encourage behavior in older cats. I get the impression it's easier with kittens but not impossible with older cats.

Maybe when you see Loki start targeting Leo try to separate them for ~10 minutes as soon as he displays the bad behavior. Sounds like you already control them well enough with distractions so maybe the extra separation will help drive the point home that there's no reward except time-out for targeting Leo. We're trying a similar strategy with our cats and seeing marginal progress. But yours are already in a way better place than mine.
 
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kenamacVT

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Thanks Chedbubag! I'd love to know the origin of your name. I was great at the 10min. chill out time until Loki figured me out, & as soon as he knows I'm coming, he goes into hiding. I've taken to deciding that he given himself his own time out, instead of trying to find him. But I know that he definitely knows I'm unhappy with him!
 
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kenamacVT

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I just checked your intro Chedbubag & realized your moniker is a combination of your cats names!😔 :kitty:
 
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kenamacVT

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This morning, I saw Leo challenge Loki who was minding his own business. Though I stepped in it seemed to me to be a good thing as in the past his quick fear response fueled Loki's tendency to chase him, but maybe I'm reading too much into the behavior. On the other hand, maybe he is getting older & he has a solid relationship with Smoki and that is helping him be a bit braver. He did not have solid relationship and was bullied by another male cat who joined his previous home because his owner was getting married and having a baby.
 

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Thanks Chedbubag! I'd love to know the origin of your name. I was great at the 10min. chill out time until Loki figured me out, & as soon as he knows I'm coming, he goes into hiding. I've taken to deciding that he given himself his own time out, instead of trying to find him. But I know that he definitely knows I'm unhappy with him!
Dang! Now that you say it, it's only natural that they catch on at some point!
 

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I just checked your intro Chedbubag & realized your moniker is a combination of your cats names!😔 :kitty:
Yep, I made it up on the spot when I made an account for this site and now it just feels right.
 

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This morning, I saw Leo challenge Loki who was minding his own business. Though I stepped in it seemed to me to be a good thing as in the past his quick fear response fueled Loki's tendency to chase him, but maybe I'm reading too much into the behavior. On the other hand, maybe he is getting older & he has a solid relationship with Smoki and that is helping him be a bit braver. He did not have solid relationship and was bullied by another male cat who joined his previous home because his owner was getting married and having a baby.
I have read that in some cases the victim cat standing up tot he aggressor will help establish limits, combined with everything else your doing. That same source went as far to suggest not trimming the victim's nail to give them more bite when the aggressor steps up, but I haven't heard anyone else echo that practice.

Smoki sounds like an invaluable diplomat. I'm sure that your support + Smoki is making Leo more confident, gradually.
 
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kenamacVT

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Yes! our victim is standing up for himself more and Loki has spent more time in solitary. But the last few days today things eased off a bit. And today we even had a little peaceful co-habitation time!
Loki & Leo at peace.jpg
 
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