Prey-Model Newbie! Advice?

[melrai]

With my cats bored and ultimately refusing their current diet, I've decided to take on this new "Prey-Model" raw deal. To be honest, what was stopping me was the absolute fear I had that I wouldn't be giving them exactly what they needed - in terns of a balanced meal. 

I would like to share to you my calculations so far. I figure that the more advice I get, the better I will be at doing this whole prey-model thing!

Here are the guidelines:
Hooligan is at his ideal weight. He weighs 8 lbs. 
Ruby could spare a few pounds, but nothing too serious. She is around 7 lbs, she could be 6 lbs. 

Right now, I measure their food in pounds. They both eat .25 lbs of meat. This is a completely balanced meal. 

For the prey-model, I would be measuring in ounces therefore...

0.25 lbs = 4 ounces a day (I would boost it to 4.5 ounces, if I see they are getting too thin. 
(This is where I get confused. Hooligan eats canned. He eats 5-5.5 ounces in canned a day. Shouldn't it be the same thing?) Going forward...

Measured monthly (Cause it just makes sense):
4 ounces x 31 days = 124 ounces a month
124 x 10% = 12.4 ounces of organs a month
124 x 10% = 12.4 ounces of bone a month

124 x 10% = 12.4 ounces of heart a month

Basically, it would come out to 86.8 ounces of MEAT and 37.2 ounces of ORGANS, BONE, HEART a month. 

Does that make some sense?

Thanks!

Melissa

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Heart is considered MEAT.  If you go 10% "organs", that would be livers, correct"? 

It should be 5% liver and 5% other secreting organs, which are things like pancreas, kidney, (not sure what else...maybe even brain?)

then 80% MEAT would be 99.2 oz, if my calculator is right.  But you need to multiply all this by TWO for both cats.  So basically you would need:

24.8 oz (or 1.55 lb) of liver per month total (if feeding 10% liver vs 5% liver and 5% other, since it's sometimes difficult to locate those "other" organs- remember, it's ok to go this route...you do NOT want to feed 10% of each - liver AND other secreting organ)

same for bone

198.4 oz (or 12.4 lbs) of MEAT per month total  for both cats

What I would think would be difficult would be determine just how much bone is in the cuts of meat, percentage wise.  I'm pretty sure someone has addressed that, but not sure where to find it. 

Oh yes, even with Frankenprey, I think most people still give their furbabies additives, like fish oil, probiotics, certain vitamins, etc.  (this is because some of these are missing since they are not feeding the whole animal including the intestines and stomach.  Are you addressing that?  My "kids" are still eating ground, so I add "Alnutrin without calcium" (since the ground has ground bone in it), Krill Oil and Probiotics.  I know LDG makes her own supplement mix similar to Alnutrin, which I believe she posted in her raw thread during a recent update.

 

[auntie crazy]

Most frankenprey feeders don't actually add supplements, except perhaps offering krill oil in place of whole sardines or something similar. Probiotics can be helpful in normalizing digestive enzymes and such before and during a transition, but aren't routinely necessary, either.

Melrai, rather than looking at the amount your cats are currently eating and working backwards, you need to take your cats' weights and work forwards. How much a cat eats in canned is not always - in fact, pretty seldom - the same amount the cat would eat in raw.

Just plug your cats' weights into this calculator and let it do all the work for you: Dry Matter Basis Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003

As for bone, for most cats, three bone-in meals a week (for instance, Monday, Wednesday and Saturday dinners) are sufficient. One chicken wing tip and middle piece = one meal. As does half the edible bone on a good-sized 'chicken breast meat with ribs'.

You can use the calculated quantities and the suggested bone-in meals as starting points and then tweak up or down from there if need be to suit your individual kitties.

Hope this helps!

AC

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Oh, AC, thank you for piping in!  As always, you are a wonderful resource, especially on Frankenprey

 

[melrai]

Heart is considered MEAT.  If you go 10% "organs", that would be livers, correct"? 

It should be 5% liver and 5% other secreting organs, which are things like pancreas, kidney, (not sure what else...maybe even brain?)

then 80% MEAT would be 99.2 oz, if my calculator is right.  But you need to multiply all this by TWO for both cats.  So basically you would need:

24.8 oz (or 1.55 lb) of liver per month total (if feeding 10% liver vs 5% liver and 5% other, since it's sometimes difficult to locate those "other" organs- remember, it's ok to go this route...you do NOT want to feed 10% of each - liver AND other secreting organ)

same for bone

198.4 oz (or 12.4 lbs) of MEAT per month total  for both cats

What I would think would be difficult would be determine just how much bone is in the cuts of meat, percentage wise.  I'm pretty sure someone has addressed that, but not sure where to find it. 

Oh yes, even with Frankenprey, I think most people still give their furbabies additives, like fish oil, probiotics, certain vitamins, etc.  (this is because some of these are missing since they are not feeding the whole animal including the intestines and stomach.  Are you addressing that?  My "kids" are still eating ground, so I add "Alnutrin without calcium" (since the ground has ground bone in it), Krill Oil and Probiotics.  I know LDG makes her own supplement mix similar to Alnutrin, which I believe she posted in her raw thread during a recent update.

This is GREAT help! Thank you so much! I haven't started actually doing Frankenprey yet - I'm so nervous! 
Both kitties don't like liver, so I really need to find something else soon because I don't know what else I'd do. I can give Hooligan canned for a day or two, just to compensate for the liver. Ruby, I have no idea. 

I'm going to look around the forums, and post something up as well. I will ask ALL the necessary questions before I go forward. 

Thanks!

 

[melrai]

Most frankenprey feeders don't actually add supplements, except perhaps offering krill oil in place of whole sardines or something similar. Probiotics can be helpful in normalizing digestive enzymes and such before and during a transition, but aren't routinely necessary, either.

Melrai, rather than looking at the amount your cats are currently eating and working backwards, you need to take your cats' weights and work forwards. How much a cat eats in canned is not always - in fact, pretty seldom - the same amount the cat would eat in raw.

Just plug your cats' weights into this calculator and let it do all the work for you: Dry Matter Basis Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003

As for bone, for most cats, three bone-in meals a week (for instance, Monday, Wednesday and Saturday dinners) are sufficient. One chicken wing tip and middle piece = one meal. As does half the edible bone on a good-sized 'chicken breast meat with ribs'.

You can use the calculated quantities and the suggested bone-in meals as starting points and then tweak up or down from there if need be to suit your individual kitties.

Hope this helps!

AC

Hi AC! Thanks so much for your reply and help. I am not going to be supplementing, maybe just some fish oil here and there for Hooligan's dry skin in the winter. I don't give him probiotics everyday, 2-3x a week is all he really gets. 

I have re-calculated their weight and weighed the food accordingly. Hooligan would be eating like an 7-8 pound cat, Ruby would be eating like a 6 pound cat (she could shed a few pounds). I tried the links you sent, there doesn't seem to be an option for weight?

I am very nervous with the bones. I don't feel comfortable, even when cutting them very small. I'm sure they can digest it just fine but I just get so nervous about it. 

I am going to post another post with some questions. Thanks for your help!

 

[auntie crazy]

...
Just plug your cats' weights into this calculator and let it do all the work for you: Dry Matter Basis Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003
...

...


I have re-calculated their weight and weighed the food accordingly. ... I tried the links you sent, there doesn't seem to be an option for weight?

...

My bad! Wrong calculator.

  Use this one: Prey Model Feeding Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003

AC

 

[melrai]

My bad! Wrong calculator.

  Use this one: Prey Model Feeding Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003

AC

THIS IS THE GREATEST TOOL EVER. 

Thank you so so much! Seems Like I'll have to fix the organ section just a tad. I wish they liked liver. They HATE it. Is their any dehydrated liver in the that could be used as a topper, with the same benefits? 

This just made my day! 

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You CAN used freeze dried liver as a substitute for the fresh.  Here is a quotation from LDG on that subject:

" If you want to figure out the right amounts based on how much your cats are eating, basically 0.35 ounces of Etta Says FD liver equals 1 ounce of fresh liver, and the cubes weight 0.02 ounces each.  I use the Stewart's Pro-Treat by Gimborn It's RAW freeze dried liver (Etta Says is cooked), and it costs less to use. If your cats like it, because it's drier than the Etta Says, to get the 0.225 oz of fresh liver daily equivalent (if feeding 4.5 ounces of food a day), it only takes 0.05 ounces of Stewart's ProTreat daily. "

Have you tried all kinds of liver...calves, chicken, pork?  Mine didn't really care for calves liver, but they really like chicken liver. 

 

[ldg]

Here's a link to a thread discussing using freeze dried liver instead of fresh, so you can calculate how much needs to be fed based on the product you can access: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

There are freeze dried raw foods - freeze drying apparently does not impact the nutritional content of the food. That said, there is definitely something different about freeze dried, because Sheldon cannot keep down fresh liver, but he loves and can keep down freeze dried liver. :dk:

 

[melrai]

Thanks! I guess now it's just a matter of finding out what they actually like. Hm, let's see. I've tried Beef liver, Chicken liver, Pork liver, Lamb liver. I have not tried Calves liver and I wonder if I can get Horse liver...

I almost need to trick them into eating liver. At least for Hooligan, I can sprinkle some toppers on the liver to trick him into thinking its not. Ruby is way too smart for that...ha ha. 

 

[melrai]

Thanks for this! This seems really helpful! 

Raw liver is a no go in the household. I have no idea why...I have yet to try kidney but I can just imagine if they don't like the smell of liver...the smell of pee might not go over too well... 

Before purchasing some freeze dried liver, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to dehydrate it myself? Or does dehydrating defeat the purpose?

...I have yet to start feeding them prey, because I REALLY want to get them eating liver...so I can quit the canned and pre-made raw food and just prepare them in advance to go full blown prey. 

Melissa