Post-trap & Spay Question

[Jcatbird]

Ohhhh. If you only knew how grateful I am that you are helping these kitties!!!! The world is a better place because of people like you. You just keep posting and everyone here will try to help you along. This site is here to help. TCS is a great place to be. We couldn’t have met without it!

 

[kittychick]

I was going to weigh in on this, but as I'm reading it I see that I'm "a little late to the party" and you've done great work with these two!!!!! I've done more trap/neuter/return (or trap/neuter/keep and sometimes trap/neuter/find a home" ) than I can count - - but it sounds like you've done brilliantly!!!! (and you got great advice too!!). Handling a transfer can be tough - - good job!!!!

I'll keep checking in on this thread to see if you need any more help/suggestions. This site is such a wonderful place to get anything and everything answered - - and sometimes just knowing someone out there in the internet ether is willing to listen and commiserate is a big part of it.

Ya done good!!!!

 

[ciaostacia]

I was going to weigh in on this, but as I'm reading it I see that I'm "a little late to the party" and you've done great work with these two!!!!! I've done more trap/neuter/return (or trap/neuter/keep and sometimes trap/neuter/find a home" ) than I can count - - but it sounds like you've done brilliantly!!!! (and you got great advice too!!). Handling a transfer can be tough - - good job!!!!

I'll keep checking in on this thread to see if you need any more help/suggestions. This site is such a wonderful place to get anything and everything answered - - and sometimes just knowing someone out there in the internet ether is willing to listen and commiserate is a big part of it.

Ya done good!!!!

Aw, thank you!! Honestly, I will take any and all advice! I constantly wonder if I'm doing the right thing because Bunny looks so miserable and poor Gumby (the male cat we haven't caught yet) comes looking for her and Baby each night and sulking in the spots where they used to hang out. Hopefully, we catch him tonight and take him to get neutered tomorrow.

Bunny and Baby both ate great yesterday, and Baby finally pooped and peed! It was such a relief to find it in the litterbox!

Bunny, on the other hand, is hit and miss with the litterbox. She will use it sometimes, but other times, she gets so scared when we're in there that she just ends up going right in front of us (at least, that's why I think she's going). She did it for the first time when we transferred her. I picked up her trap, and as I was picking it up, she starting peeing all over. Yesterday, she peed and pooped that way, and then she peed herself again today when I was getting her food and cleaning up the area a bit. I managed to take out the bottom of her crate and clean it all up, but I feel so bad every time that happens.

Jcatbird

 

[Jcatbird]

Awwww. Poor Bunny is scared probably but it could also be to get you to leave. It’s hard to know exactly why. It could even be a bladder issue. Just keep working with her and offering a very calm atmosphere. You could check with the vet. Besides just getting their opinion, you could ask about a calming medication. You can also try a Feliway product. I think she will calm down once she realizes that you are not going to eat her and are not a predator. If you can start getting Baby to accept you then Mom could see that you are not doing harm. Many times I have won the babies over and that was what demonstrated to Mom that I was not a threat. The Mom still didn’t trust me right away but it led to trust.
One other thing, human noises are frightening. Just every day house noises and when you enter the room. Some people find that calming music for cats helps. It may disguise other house noises. Music may not be something they accept though. Some do not like it. I always announce my entrance to a room before I go in. Bunny!!!! We’re coming in. Okay baby? It’s okay...
Use soft tones but make sure she has time to hear you and react. She does have a small hiding area? That area should give her some security. I always use a small carrier inside of the crates because if they hide there, when I need to take them out or to the vet, it’s an easy retrieval as well as providing them a comfort no matter what we have to do.
Gumby! Lol I think that’s very original and cute. If you catch him, Mom may be very reassured to see him in the house. They really do form tight family units. We all grow up hearing about Toms going from female to female. They do follow the hormones BUT I have also watched a Tom reject other females to stay with his chosen female and family. Even after the kittens were grown. Other males will guard all the females and kittens in a group. I have two males here that devoted themselves to their families. I was amazed to watch how they protected other kitties. My BJ managed to elude being caught entirely. I saw him lead females and kittens to safe hiding areas when a threat was present. Then I watched him as he figured out that I would also protect. He led Moms and kittens to the shelter at my back door. He remained guardian until I had brought in the very last female and baby. At that time he observed me for awhile. He still eluded all traps but on his last day outside, he followed me home and sat at the door to watch me for a short while. Then he came inside on his own. No hissing or scratching. He was nervous but is a total teddy bear and lap cat now. The final female I had caught actually helped me to calm him by sitting next to his cage after he was neutered. She gave him kitty kisses through the bars and when he was first allowed out. I know you can’t keep them all but you can take this time with them to make all understand that you are not a threat. That way, if you ever need to help Gumby again, it will be much easier. My males remain guardians to the family members that I still have here.
Try not to feel too bad about her fear. You have saved her from being much more afraid outside. I can assure you that she faced many fears out there. Every predator near, every human and even every thunder storm. She will learn that she is safe. Give her a little time.

 

[kittychick]

You really are doing SO well with them. I skimmed through the thread again - - so I might be offering advice that's been already given above (and you've gotten some really good advice from Jcatbird ), if so - feel free to ignore me.

Wanted to make sure that when you get the baby food - - that it has no onion or garlic in it. I've found that 99.5% of the time, what works best (by far - at least for me) is Gerber "Second Foods Chicken and Gravy." That only has three ingredients - chicken, water and cornstarch.) It's a little more expensive than Beechnut's baby food equivalent (just by pennies), but for some reason, I've yet to have any feral or foster we've had here will really go for it. Same with other flavors of the Gerber. The Chicken and Gravy wins by a mile! (that's why alot of us call it "kitty crack"!). We have a retractible for and spoon (I got them on Amazon) - - so that initially, you're a bit away from them, which makes them less likely to be cautious. And as they become used to it and looking forward to it, we start shortening the fork until it's just as far away as a regular fork.

Gumby will adjust - he's just confused. I does take at least a few days for them to stop looking for a colony buddy. Does it look like someone (or you - as a wonderful soft-touch )would be willing to take in Bunny after you've worked with her? If so, I'd work with her versus releasing him. She'll likely be harder to socialize as an adult, but it's definitely not impossible! And a big part of that is what you - or another potential adopter - considers socialized. She may never be a lap cat --- but you never know!

We took in a 2 year-old complete feral from our colony, and long story short - she's become the most amazingly loving, lap cat who actually wiggles her behind when we come home! It took time, but it was definitely worth it. Baby should take alot less time to adjust to being around people since she's fairly young (SO glad you you caught her when you did - most people don't realize how young kitties can become pregnant!), but with a little time, work and love, she should. And altho Bunny's an adult, it's very possible she'll be fine in a home too - - - again, dependent on what you're looking for. Many people (you'll find lots on this site even!) have taken in completely feral cats, understanding that the cat they take in very possibly won't ever be lovey-dovey. But even that can change over time! Each is on its own time clock. Another of our outside ferals - Brady - just this summer suddenly let me pet him! Now he's started coming running when he hears me come outside, meows and begs me to brush him, and he's been hanging in our yard ever since we TNR'd him - - FOUR years ago!!!!!! (well, garage is more correct than yard as we've got heated shelters in there for the winter, and the furry buggars are fed canned/dry 2x a day - hubby says more like 4 a day since I head out there with chicken to hand feed them most days!). A 180 degree turn.....in only 4 years!

As Jcatbird mentioned - it's possible that Bunny has a bladder infection, but I'm guessing it's more fear/behavioral. Many cats who are very frightened virtually live in their litterbox - because it's what smells most like them, which is comforting for them. Unfortunately - then you get the issue of them not necessarily wanting to actually USE the litterbox. I'd try see Feliway spray and/or plug ins. They release a scent that smells to the cat like kitty pheromones (you won't smell anything, but Bunny will), and that can be the extra "push" that helps the calm down. It doesn't work on every cat, but I've had many that it does help. I also wouldn't push doing too much yet to disturb her - -in her world it hasn't been long at all, and she's still likely quite confused. Every cat's different, but with one like her that's that scared, I wouldn't push very hard or fast on getting near her. Some people believe pushing a kitty helps them get over the fear - - but that's never helped me (or any of the kitty's I've worked with!). I do alot of "just being" in the room with a kitty when we're socializing. I too cover the crate with a sheet or two, and I leave the front open so that the kitty can see around, but still feels "caved in" and a bit more secure, since they're covered and "safe" from 3 sides and the top. I actually wouldn't be even attempting to pet at this stage. I do alot of talking, reading aloud, taking my laptop into their room and talking through the work I'm doing - - all in a quiet, sing song voice. And I always quietly announce myself with the same little "I've got food for Bunny...yummy treats for Bunny" (ok - it won't win a Grammy) as I enter the room so she's not surprised I'm there. And then I lie or sit on the floor to talk or read or just "be." I also keep the radio or a tv on something soothing - - no "The View" screaming. I find that consistency in how I enter the room, how I talk, the sounds they hear, etc. helps alot. I use the long-handled spoon I described - so that I'm giving them something yummy, but they don't have to be close to the big scary human yet. And I do always have a place in the big crate where the kitty can huddle in and make her own - - we use a word cat carrier with the door wired open (we wire the door to the side of the crate so that if something needs to be done in the crate, if that's where she "holes up" when nervous, you can push the door shut from outside of the crate - we use a broom handle, taking the option of you getting hurt out of the equation.). But a 3-sided sturdy little box is fine too. Again - -everyone's got their ways that work for them - - this is what I've found works for me after decades of this! She'll likely work her way out of the litterbox into the "cave" as her fear subsides - - and then she'll hopefully go back to using the box! And peeing on herself - - - that's almost always a sign of them being very nervous or scared (like little kids sitting on Santa's lap!)

The big thing to remember - - Bunny's (and Baby's) fear and cautiousness around humans (and anything else that could possibly be a predator) is literally what kept them alive outside. Hiding when possible, and if that's not possible, they take the next step - which is scaring the predator away with a growl, a swat, a lunge or even a bite (it's so hard to think of yourself as a predator, isn't it?). If only they could read our minds and knew we just want to help them! That's why socializing is something that takes time -- you're having to override what's been ingrained in them since birth. And as a wonderful member on this site told me once - - she felt the ferals were put into her life to teach her patience, not vice versa. Which is pretty wise.

So keep at it - - they're lucky to have you! Ask questions - - - and keep us posted!

 

[Jcatbird]

 

[ciaostacia]

Hi, everyone! Sorry it's been so long! I'm a teacher and I'm going to school for my Master's and both of those started up last week, so needless to say, it's been super busy around here! But I have some great things to report to you all!

First, we caught Gumby! I thought it was going to take us way longer, but we were able to catch him and get him neutered the Tuesday before I started back to work (almost two weeks ago), and we were so excited. The poor guy banged up his nose a bit on the cage, but it looked like the swelling had started to go down when we let him out. He's still coming around for food at our house, and we are so happy he's had his last baby!

Next, things with Bunny and Baby are going really well. I couldn't have done it without you all! You've all really helped reinforce that I need to trust my instincts, and I think that's what helped me have the success that I've had so far. First, I didn't have a long spoon or fork, but I bought a wand toy that has a pretty thick, padded handle at the end, and I've been using that for my socializing. Bunny will now eat off of it, and the past couple days I have started petting her with it for about 3 min and ending with a tuna treat. She does not like getting pet by it at first, but she doesn't hiss and towards the end of the three minutes she seems to settle down. I *almost* got her to take the tuna out of my hand last night, but she's decided she's not quite there yet.

Baby is still quite the spitfire! I was really excited when I got her to eat off of the wand, and then something told me to try giving her tuna from my hand rather than the glove and she totally went for it! That was almost a week ago, and with a little warming up, I can usually get her to eat out of my hand no problem. On Friday, I tried starting to pet her with the wand, and she was NOT happy about it! She was a bit more stand-offish than usual on Saturday, and I took that to mean that she was sulking a bit from our socializing on Friday. I've tried to rub her paw or the side of her face while she's eating out of my hand, and I'm wondering if that's the way to go instead of the wand. I've also gotten her to play with me quite a bit! It has been really exciting to watch the playfulness come back out in her. We've played with feather toys, fuzzy mice, and as of last night, the little ball tower where she can chase the balls around it! She also came up and ate right next to me this morning which was totally unexpected. I was cleaning up her water and had the door of the pen all rolled up and then I looked down and there she was eating! That was super exciting to see her willing to come up to me like that.

Okay, so with all the progress they've made, here's my next question--what should I do next? I think it is time that the two of them be together, and while at first I was thinking I would just put Bunny in the same pen as Baby, I decided I think it would be too small (and it's really hard to clean as it is right now. I can't imagine how much harder it would be with the two of them). So what I'm thinking is that I would just let the two of them out in the room. Right now, they are each in separate pens in our spare bedroom, but I think I would put a cat tree in there, block off under the bed (it would be impossible to get to them under there, and they would still have under a dresser if they wanted to hide), and just sit with them in the space when I came in to socialize. I'm hoping the bigger space wouldn't be too overwhelming for them and also Baby is super curious about outside of her pen. What do you all think? Is this a logical next step, or should I scale it back a bit?

Oh, also, I've been using this guide to help me figure out how to move through each of the steps. However, they say you need to do the sociailziations 6-8 times per day. The thing is, with my schedule, that's almost impossible during the week. I do try to do some socializing in the morning before I leave for work and spend about 20-30 minutes with them, and I always sit with them for at least 30 minutes in the evening (if not more) and try to do the socializing work at least twice before I go to bed. My SO also sits with them for awhile if he gets home before I do. Is this okay?? I don't want to give them less than they need, but at the same time, twice a week I leave at 7 a.m. and don't get home until after 8 p.m. Plus, I have to give my other two cats attention and do all the other stuff I need to do (eat, prepare for the next day, relax a bit, etc.). I guess I'm just looking for some reaffirmation that the time I'm giving Bunny and Baby right now is enough.

Again, thank you all for all the advice and help! I couldn't have done it without you!

Jcatbird kittychick

 

[ciaostacia]

Hi, everyone! Sorry it's been so long! I'm a teacher and I'm going to school for my Master's and both of those started up last week, so needless to say, it's been super busy around here! But I have some great things to report to you all!

First, we caught Gumby! I thought it was going to take us way longer, but we were able to catch him and get him neutered the Tuesday before I started back to work (almost two weeks ago), and we were so excited. The poor guy banged up his nose a bit on the cage, but it looked like the swelling had started to go down when we let him out. He's still coming around for food at our house, and we are so happy he's had his last baby!

Next, things with Bunny and Baby are going really well. I couldn't have done it without you all! You've all really helped reinforce that I need to trust my instincts, and I think that's what helped me have the success that I've had so far. First, I didn't have a long spoon or fork, but I bought a wand toy that has a pretty thick, padded handle at the end, and I've been using that for my socializing. Bunny will now eat off of it, and the past couple days I have started petting her with it for about 3 min and ending with a tuna treat. She does not like getting pet by it at first, but she doesn't hiss and towards the end of the three minutes she seems to settle down. I *almost* got her to take the tuna out of my hand last night, but she's decided she's not quite there yet.

Baby is still quite the spitfire! I was really excited when I got her to eat off of the wand, and then something told me to try giving her tuna from my hand rather than the glove and she totally went for it! That was almost a week ago, and with a little warming up, I can usually get her to eat out of my hand no problem. On Friday, I tried starting to pet her with the wand, and she was NOT happy about it! She was a bit more stand-offish than usual on Saturday, and I took that to mean that she was sulking a bit from our socializing on Friday. I've tried to rub her paw or the side of her face while she's eating out of my hand, and I'm wondering if that's the way to go instead of the wand. I've also gotten her to play with me quite a bit! It has been really exciting to watch the playfulness come back out in her. We've played with feather toys, fuzzy mice, and as of last night, the little ball tower where she can chase the balls around it! She also came up and ate right next to me this morning which was totally unexpected. I was cleaning up her water and had the door of the pen all rolled up and then I looked down and there she was eating! That was super exciting to see her willing to come up to me like that.

Okay, so with all the progress they've made, here's my next question--what should I do next? I think it is time that the two of them be together, and while at first I was thinking I would just put Bunny in the same pen as Baby, I decided I think it would be too small (and it's really hard to clean as it is right now. I can't imagine how much harder it would be with the two of them). So what I'm thinking is that I would just let the two of them out in the room. Right now, they are each in separate pens in our spare bedroom, but I think I would put a cat tree in there, block off under the bed (it would be impossible to get to them under there, and they would still have under a dresser if they wanted to hide), and just sit with them in the space when I came in to socialize. I'm hoping the bigger space wouldn't be too overwhelming for them and also Baby is super curious about outside of her pen. What do you all think? Is this a logical next step, or should I scale it back a bit?

Oh, also, I've been using this guide to help me figure out how to move through each of the steps. However, they say you need to do the sociailziations 6-8 times per day. The thing is, with my schedule, that's almost impossible during the week. I do try to do some socializing in the morning before I leave for work and spend about 20-30 minutes with them, and I always sit with them for at least 30 minutes in the evening (if not more) and try to do the socializing work at least twice before I go to bed. My SO also sits with them for awhile if he gets home before I do. Is this okay?? I don't want to give them less than they need, but at the same time, twice a week I leave at 7 a.m. and don't get home until after 8 p.m. Plus, I have to give my other two cats attention and do all the other stuff I need to do (eat, prepare for the next day, relax a bit, etc.). I guess I'm just looking for some reaffirmation that the time I'm giving Bunny and Baby right now is enough.

Again, thank you all for all the advice and help! I couldn't have done it without you!

Jcatbird kittychick

Oh, I also forgot to mention, no more litterbox issues! They both are using them just fine!

 

[Jcatbird]

You’re doing a fantastic job!

Baby looks a whole lot like my sweetie Whistle.
Thank you so much for the update. Bravo!
If for any reason you need me in the next few days and I don’t respond, it’s because I am dealing with a hurricane. The others may have to help. So sorry but just wanted to let you know.
Excellent work!

 

[ciaostacia]

You’re doing a fantastic job!

Baby looks a whole lot like my sweetie Whistle.
Thank you so much for the update. Bravo!
If for any reason you need me in the next few days and I don’t respond, it’s because I am dealing with a hurricane. The others may have to help. So sorry but just wanted to let you know.
Excellent work!

Oh my gosh, I hope you and your kitties are able to stay safe!! I'll be thinking of you

 

[kittychick]

You are doing SO well!!!! I had to kind of skim through your last post, but I'll read through your last questions more carefully in a bit & answer everything. The guide you're using is a good one, and you're obviously making great strides! (I know - slower strides then you'd like - - but they're forward strides, and that alone is great! There will always be setbacks - - that happens with ferals, strays and spouses alike but you'll definitely get there. I actually think you're moving along quite quickly!).