Persian or British Longhair?

livs2laff

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I saw a photo of a British Longhair cat...a breed I never knew existed and am wondering if mine is the same breed. What is the distinct difference between a "dollface" Persian and a BLH? Here are pictures of my cats. The one I am questioning is Simba. Kiki Bear is clearly a classic Persian. Simba is a 2 year old male and weighs 9 lbs. Kiki Bear is 6 and weighs 7.5 lbs and is much smaller and daintier than Simba. Simba's personality is rough & tumble and likes to sleep while my girl, Kiki, could play all day & night if I let her.

Thanks much for any information you can provide me.

SIMBA (breed in question)





KIKI BEAR (definitely a Persian)



SIMBA & KIKI BEAR by comparison

 

p3 and the king

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Simba is a doll faced Persian or pet quality Persian.  Persians are the ONLY BREED with the smushed in faces... A British Longhair IS a Persian... It is just what the British often refer to as Persians is all.  " The Persian is a long-haired breed of cat characterized by its round face and shortened muzzle. Its name refers to Persia, the former name of Iran, where similar cats are found. Recognized by the cat fancy since the late 19th century, it was developed first by the English, and then mainly by American breeders after the Second World War. In Britain, it is called the Longhair or Persian Longhair."
 
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northernglow

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The difference is the pedigree and the breeders behind it. "Dollface" Persians are pet quality non-standard cats and I don't understand why anyone would willingly breed them because that's not what a Persian is supposed to look like, you can't take them to shows and they are not a recognized breed, just poor quality Persians. If they are purebred, they have Persian parents.

British Longhairs have existed for as long as British Shorthairs, but haven't been recognized in many cat registries. Mostly because British Shorthair breeders usually do not like the idea of a 'sister breed'. They have been born in many BSH litters because many British Shorthair lines carry the longhair gene originally inherited from Persian outcrosses made during the war (and in the breed's beginning) to keep BSH breed from becoming extinct. Later (in some places still in the 80s') to widen the gene pool and to add new colors (like colorpoints). The coat is a bit shorter than a Persian coat, but the texture is similar. Purebred British Longhair has British Short- or Longhair parents. (Both of mine have Shorthair parents).

I'm fairly sure your Simba is a Persian mix, because BSH mixes are a bit rarer (Persian being more popular breed) and I can see you're not located in Northern Europe where a BSH mix would be more likely. Also he seems to have a slight 'stop' in his nose and some tear staining more typical to Persians than Brits. It can be seen in Brits or BSH mixes too but I can count those times with my one hand's fingers and I have seen a lot of BSHs. He's also quite tiny, and Persians aren't quite as large as Brits. My Longhair male (soon 5 years old) weighs 14.4 lbs and isn't fat, my unneutered BSH stud weighs 12.2 lbs and is a bit on the smaller side (he's also nearly 5). My British Longhair female (unspayed, 2,5 years old) weighs 8.8 lbs and she has just finished nursing a litter.
 

missymotus

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No, it's a recognized championship breed of it's own. I have them and I breed them (well, try to, had only shorthairs so far..).
Absolutely not the same thing as a Persian, I have a friend who tries not to breed them


Here only the BSH is recognised.

The cat in question here looks more like a Persian mix, with the eye shape and muzzle. No where near enough nose for a so-called Dollface Persian, which is why I'm saying mix. Unless there's generations of byb behind the lines.
 
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p3 and the king

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The difference is the pedigree and the breeders behind it. "Dollface" Persians are pet quality non-standard cats and I don't understand why anyone would willingly breed them because that's not what a Persian is supposed to look like, you can't take them to shows and they are not a recognized breed, just poor quality Persians. If they are purebred, they have Persian parents.

British Longhairs have existed for as long as British Shorthairs, but haven't been recognized in many cat registries. Mostly because British Shorthair breeders usually do not like the idea of a 'sister breed'. They have been born in many BSH litters because many British Shorthair lines carry the longhair gene originally inherited from Persian outcrosses made during the war (and in the breed's beginning) to keep BSH breed from becoming extinct. Later (in some places still in the 80s') to widen the gene pool and to add new colors (like colorpoints). The coat is a bit shorter than a Persian coat, but the texture is similar. Purebred British Longhair has British Short- or Longhair parents. (Both of mine have Shorthair parents).

I'm fairly sure your Simba is a Persian mix, because BSH mixes are a bit rarer (Persian being more popular breed) and I can see you're not located in Northern Europe where a BSH mix would be more likely. Also he seems to have a slight 'stop' in his nose and some tear staining more typical to Persians than Brits. It can be seen in Brits or BSH mixes too but I can count those times with my one hand's fingers and I have seen a lot of BSHs. He's also quite tiny, and Persians aren't quite as large as Brits. My Longhair male (soon 5 years old) weighs 14.4 lbs and isn't fat, my unneutered BSH stud weighs 12.2 lbs and is a bit on the smaller side (he's also nearly 5). My British Longhair female (unspayed, 2,5 years old) weighs 8.8 lbs and she has just finished nursing a litter.
I have 2 doll faced Persians... They are what Persians are supposed to look like... They are now called the pet standard and not show standard.  Peke faced is the result of many many years of line breeding.  Some believe it to be unethical.  Also, You can breed 2 peke faced Persians together and still end up with doll faced.  They are NOT Persian mixes.  They are not the result of poor breeding.  They are just natures result.  You don't know a lot about Persians I assume?  ... I can recommend you to some Persian breeders who can enlighten you if you'd like. 

Also, all the research I have done says that British longhairs are the same breed as the Persian. 

Without a certain pedigree, Simba is classified as a moggie and you just have to guess.  But my guess is that he is a doll faced Persian.  Usually Persian mixes do not have that smushed in of a face.  But that is only a guess and without a pedigree to back it up, he is classified as a moggie... A beautiful one, though!!
 
 

carolina

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Is this where true then BLH's would be bred from Persian x Persian matings, which is just not the case.
:yeah:...... Utu's last bit of Persian blood in his pedigree was in 1985 :eek: That's what..... 27 years of breeding ago? I think he earned the title of British by now.....
 

StefanZ

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I have 2 doll faced Persians... They are what Persians are supposed to look like... They are now called the pet standard and not show standard. 
I assume you are also a defender of the old type Persian.

It is  an entirely legitimate approach not liking the "modern" Persian looks in the standards of today are demanding.

But still, by the modern, "approved" standard, your own preferences will be called pet quality - or at least, non show quality.  And you must accept this.

I suggest you use the wording "non show quality", as you apparently do want to belong to the Persian family, but dont wish to compete in the shows.  Perhaps participate, but not compete.

There is btw a somewhat similiar discussian between old type siamese and modern siamese. Some old-typists do a radical twist, and call their type instead for Thai, turning their back from the Siamese world....

Our scandinavian Russian blue may become in a similiar situation. We do like our Scandinavian look, althoug the american look becomes more and more popular.

And calling LH British same as Persian cant be correct. I presume you mean some of the roots of LHBritish are from Persians.  Which is surely true and NorthernGlow mentioned this too.

Although I presume you could use LH British for outcross into old type Persians... As this is the type of Persians you do prefer.     Am I right?   
 

orientalslave

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British Longhair is indeed an emerging breed.  The background of British Shorthair is very mixed - until some time in (I believe) the 70s any cat of any origin that looked like a British Shorthair could be registered in the UK with the GCCF and bred from.  Some of these cats would have carried longhair, and there have also been some crosses with Persians and all of the offpsring cats would have carried longhair.  Hence, longhair kittens have always popped up from time to time.

TICA are recognising the Britis Longhair:  http://www.tica.org/public/breeds/bl/intro.php

However I'm not sure any are starting to be bred in the UK - Google couldn't find anything for me.

Going back to Simba - with no papers he isn't any breed at all, but he looks like a Persian cross to me.
 

p3 and the king

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I assume you are also a defender of the old type Persian.

It is  an entirely legitimate approach not liking the "modern" Persian looks in the standards of today are demanding.

But still, by the modern, "approved" standard, your own preferences will be called pet quality - or at least, non show quality.  And you must accept this.

I suggest you use the wording "non show quality", as you apparently do want to belong to the Persian family, but dont wish to compete in the shows.  Perhaps participate, but not compete.

There is btw a somewhat similiar discussian between old type siamese and modern siamese. Some old-typists do a radical twist, and call their type instead for Thai, turning their back from the Siamese world....

Our scandinavian Russian blue may become in a similiar situation. We do like our Scandinavian look, althoug the american look becomes more and more popular.

And calling LH British same as Persian cant be correct. I presume you mean some of the roots of LHBritish are from Persians.  Which is surely true and NorthernGlow mentioned this too.

Although I presume you could use LH British for outcross into old type Persians... As this is the type of Persians you do prefer.     Am I right?   
Growing up, my uncle had Persian cats... They were considered show quality though he never showed them.  (This was about 25 yrs ago.) They were doll faced.  When I decided to get a Persian myself, I did research and I decided that I preferred doll faced to peke faced.  It had nothing to do with showing.  I would never do that to an animal.  I feel it is wrong and stressful.  But, this is just my opinion.  I keep it mostly to myself.  But, I do keep in close contact with my Persians breeder and I do learn a lot from her and her circle of Persian breeding friends.  Most do both peke and doll faced because doll faced is how Persians look naturally without us trying to manipulate the qualities to be more extreme.  Almost every litter, even from 2 show quality or champion peke faced cats, contains at least half doll faced offspring.  Sometimes nature cannot be manipulated.  But, it does offend me somewhat when someone says something like "I don't know why people bother breeding doll faced on purpose. They are inferior."  Not so.  Maybe to show circuit but I find them far superior in looks personally. 

As far as the British longhair goes, I stand by my statement... All my research says that they are essentially the same breed.  But I could be wrong?  I am not a breeder.  Or a shower.  But I do know a lot about the Persian breed.  Any Persian mom has to know about the breed.  They are definately a special needs cat.... Not in a negative way but they do require special care and attention. 
 

Who would call these 2 doll faced beauties inferior?



I rest my case!!!
 
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northernglow

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 You don't know a lot about Persians I assume?  ... I can recommend you to some Persian breeders who can enlighten you if you'd like. 

Also, all the research I have done says that British longhairs are the same breed as the Persian. 
No I don't. I've only had one Persian. He was born 1980 and was a pet quality one (not quite 'dollfaced' but too long nose anyway), but had much shorter nose than my Brits for example.  And please do recommend some Persian breeders to me who can enlighten me. I only know a few Persian breeders, and the one we have here on TCS who is also a judge. And I thought the 'peke face' was gone after 80s after it became clear that it was too extreme, the ones you see now are just normal short Persian faces, not pekes?

You do realize that no breed today looks like it used to look 200 years ago, right? The Russians have green eyes instead the original copper, Siamese look very different than they used to, and Abyssinians are now only allowed to be ticked tabbies, we have colorpoint BSHs and shorthair version of Persian: Exotic etc.

Your research seems very odd, what sources did you use? Did you even take a look at the pedigree I just showed? You don't know a lot about British Lonhairs I assume?


As far as the British longhair goes, I stand by my statement... All my research says that they are essentially the same breed.  But I could be wrong?  I am not a breeder.  Or a shower.  But I do know a lot about the Persian breed.  Any Persian mom has to know about the breed.  They are definately a special needs cat.... Not in a negative way but they do require special care and attention. 
 

Who would call these 2 doll faced beauties inferior?



I rest my case!!!
Can you show me the research which states British Longhair=Persian?? So you're saying 2 Persians can have British kittens?

And your cats aren't exatly the 'dollfaced' Persian I meant. Yes they have a bit longer noses than a show Persian, but they clearly have a shorter nose than a Brit, different muzzle and they clearly are Persians, whereas 'dollface' Persians have pretty much identical face to a Brit. I didn't say they are inferior, what I mean is the people breeding them on purpose aren't doing their job, they are just making money, not trying to make the breed better. They are just breeding pet quality cats which is not the point, they are just adding to the quantity and ignoring the quality part if they are doing that on purpose.

Where's Sam when she's needed?
 

p3 and the king

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Piper and Phoebe's father is a grand champion.  They are more of the extreme doll faced but they are still considered doll faced and not peke faced.  I wasn't referring to you in the previous "inferior" comment.  But, I do hear that all the time from people who don't know any better.  I do not believe that making the peke faced more "extreme" is making the breed better.  I believe it leads to more problems.  But that is just my opinion too.  Like I said, I don't agree with some of the "thinking" of show circuits or judges.  But, breeders are going to have doll faced kittens whether they intend to or not.  It's a fact of breeding.  So, in a way, not all of them are striving to do this but it is something that cannot be helped.  Sad, I think.  

If you want to know about Persian breeding... Go to Persian-cats.com.  They can help you plenty with the Persian breed.  I warn you, though, they can be a tough group especially if you don't know anything but presume to say you do about the breed.  Not that anyone would but tread lightly with comments on doll faced not being up to par on that site! 
 

wellingtoncats

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I'm not going to get any to any arguments about "Doll Face" or "Peke faced" -- whoever coined those terms should be absolutely shot. There are Persians. They can be pet quality or they can be show quality.

Firstly British Longhairs are a breed in their own right, and do not even resemble Persians.
 
Growing up, my uncle had Persian cats... They were considered show quality though he never showed them.  (This was about 25 yrs ago.) They were doll faced.  When I decided to get a Persian myself, I did research and I decided that I preferred doll faced to peke faced.  It had nothing to do with showing.  I would never do that to an animal.  I feel it is wrong and stressful.  But, this is just my opinion.  I keep it mostly to myself.  But, I do keep in close contact with my Persians breeder and I do learn a lot from her and her circle of Persian breeding friends.  Most do both peke and doll faced because doll faced is how Persians look naturally without us trying to manipulate the qualities to be more extreme.  Almost every litter, even from 2 show quality or champion peke faced cats, contains at least half doll faced offspring.  Sometimes nature cannot be manipulated.  But, it does offend me somewhat when someone says something like "I don't know why people bother breeding doll faced on purpose. They are inferior."  Not so.  Maybe to show circuit but I find them far superior in looks personally. 

As far as the British longhair goes, I stand by my statement... All my research says that they are essentially the same breed.  But I could be wrong?  I am not a breeder.  Or a shower.  But I do know a lot about the Persian breed.  Any Persian mom has to know about the breed.  They are definately a special needs cat.... Not in a negative way but they do require special care and attention. 
 

Who would call these 2 doll faced beauties inferior?



I rest my case!!!

Next and I'm sorry this post was quoted before the other. I am just learning.

These are not Doll Faced Persians.

There are what we call Persians. And they are very nice ones :) I really like them.


I saw a photo of a British Longhair cat...a breed I never knew existed and am wondering if mine is the same breed. What is the distinct difference between a "dollface" Persian and a BLH? Here are pictures of my cats. The one I am questioning is Simba. Kiki Bear is clearly a classic Persian. Simba is a 2 year old male and weighs 9 lbs. Kiki Bear is 6 and weighs 7.5 lbs and is much smaller and daintier than Simba. Simba's personality is rough & tumble and likes to sleep while my girl, Kiki, could play all day & night if I let her.

Thanks much for any information you can provide me.

SIMBA (breed in question)





KIKI BEAR (definitely a Persian)



SIMBA & KIKI BEAR by comparison

Next these are also both Persians -- and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They are both completely gorgeous. Sorry but for those who have replied saying that Simba is a mix, there is no question that Simba is a full Persian. Like all breeds they vary in looks -- As a judge and a long time Persian breeder I wouldn't be ashamed to have any of the cats on this page in my breeding programme :)
 

missymotus

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Almost every litter, even from 2 show quality or champion peke faced cats, contains at least half doll faced offspring. 
Nice to see you Sam :) Just wondering about the above quote? I only see very occasionally with those I know and also see online a longer nosed kitten in litters, not "at least half" of "almost every litter"
 

p3 and the king

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Nice to see you Sam :) Just wondering about the above quote? I only see very occasionally with those I know and also see online a longer nosed kitten in litters, not "at least half" of "almost every litter"
In every Persian litter, or any cat breed for that matter, the kittens that do not fit the show standard, are listed as "Pet quality" or "Doll faced" they are not considered fit for breeding or showing.  And usually it's half or more of each litter that does not fit the show standard.  Show standards for Persians are very specific.  And the kittens can be perfect in every aspect, like my Piper, except for the nose being just a little off.  That is the only thing that keeps her from being show quality.  Not that I care.... But to breeders, it is the difference of a few hundred dollars.  But, like I said, I do not agree with show standards.  I think they are ridiculous in most cases and are not promoting healthy standards.  That is just my opinion though.  I am sure not everyone shares it. 

Doll faced means that they are not show quality, that is all.  People think it has to do with the nose and that they are longer.  True, but not always as extreme as people think.  It can be a fraction of an inch and if it (the nose) doesn't line up totally with the eyes, that is what is considered Doll faced. 
 

wellingtoncats

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No sorry it is false rubbish that there are half pet quality kittens in every litter... LOL!!!!! God I would have stopped years ago if that was the case
 

missymotus

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or any cat breed for that matter, the kittens that do not fit the show standard, are listed as "Pet quality" they are not considered fit for breeding or showing.
Thanks for the explanation, as a breeder I am aware of the term pet quality
though thankfully it's not half of every litter! 

"doll faced" is not the term used for pet quality, those breeding 'doll faced' cats have far longer noses than any PQ kitten from show standard cats.


No sorry it is false rubbish that there are half pet quality kittens in every litter... LOL!!!!! God I would have stopped years ago if that was the case
Thanks again Sam
No one would be breeding, or they shouldn't be anyway
if that many pet quality kitts are being produced.
 
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livs2laff

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Thank you all for joining in the discussion and giving your expertise and opinions. In no way did I mean to start at BLH vs Peke vs Dollface war. I just saw a pic of a BLH and thought they were so similar to my Simba that I questioned his breed. WellingtonCats, I most appreciate your kind words written about all the beauties on this page. I rescued both Simba & Kiki Bear and don't know their backgrounds nor do I care. They are my babies and no matter what their lines are, I love them the same. P3 & the King...OMG! Your orange dolls are gorgeous! I had an orange Persian, Sunny, who passed a decade ago and I still cry over that loss. The one in the front looks very much like my sweet angel. And lastly, NorthernGlow... Utu is stunning! What a proper and poised boy he is. You must be very proud to show him. His markings are purrfect.

Thank you all again for replying and trying to clarify for me the distinct difference. I learned a lot, but mostly that my Simba is not a BLH, but a Persian. Either way, he's my baby and that's what really matters.

Have a blessed day!
 
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