One kitten not gaining as much as brothers

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Hello fine cat people..I am new here but have been lurking since I decided to get back into rescuing (I used to be very deep into that world, but stopped 13 years ago, long story but it involved a man )

Anyway, I took in approx. one year old calico who was pregnant (my mom found her)

She had 4 boys on March 13th, 2021. 2 cream striped short hairs and 2 orange swirl medium/long hair.

It was an easy birth, the only hiccup being that the last kitten who was the smallest didn't attach right away but after half hour finally did. My post is mostly about him.

Another hiccup after birth was that Mama Cat (Bronia) got a severe URI when the kits were 5 days old and the kittens started sneezing. After debating and weighing pros and cons both my personal and rescue group vets said to put them on amoxicillin.
This decision was not made lightly.

I will post a picture of the weight the kittens have been gaining, I am obsessive and am extremely invested in these guys.

The kitten I have a question about is the smallest of the 4. His name is Milo. I don't know if he is a runt, Bronia has not treated him differently then his brothers, his eyes opened around the same time...but he is small and gains much less then his brothers. He is definitely smartest of the four, probably because he has to be.
But he does get knocked off the nipple by his brothers.
To show you the difference between biggest brother (Gene) and Milo is easy....Gene is currently at 347g while his tiny brother is only at 289g.
The other brothers (swirly orange) are also over 300g by now (Major Briggs weighs 326 and Dean weighs 306g)

The bigger brothers gain a noticeable amount throughout the day while Milo will only sometimes gain 1g during the day. He seems to gain most of his weight at night
BUT...in a 24 hour period he does end up gaining between 12g and 20g which is in the normal parameters.

I don't think he acts any different then his siblings...I see him on a nipple all the time, he is learning to play, sleeps on top of his brothers and is giving walking a try. His eyes are more open the his biggest brother.
I did try supplementaly feeding him, but he wants nothing to do with KMR. I am getting new nipples today and will try again.
My vets don't seem to be overly concerned, said he looks healthy just small.


I guess my question is whether this is normal, to have one kitten so much smaller then his siblings. Not only smaller? gaining weight at smaller increments.
Should I be more proactive and force the KMR feeding issue?
My vet is very good, but he is not an expert on neonates.
Should I take him to a more kitten experienced vet (I talk to my rescue vet over the phone, but can make an appointment to see her but she is an hour away)

Am I over obsessing, should I just let it be as long as he gains the same amount over 24 hours. I worry about him...

And I am SO sorry about my disorganized and scattered question/story.
I have severe ADD and writing like this is one of the hardest things for me.

Thank you for any suggestions or input in advance.

I have more (many many many more) pictures if they would help.
 

Attachments

Sarthur2

Cat lady extraordinaire
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
35,987
Purraise
17,680
Location
Sunny Florida
“BUT...in a 24 hour period he does end up gaining between 12g and 20g which is in the normal parameters.“

Yes, it is, and so he is definitely the runt, but he is doing very well if he is gaining like this consistently, day after day. He may have been conceived a few days later, or squished in the uterus, but he sounds like he’s very determined to get his fair share!

It’s certainly worth offering him extra, but I would not force it since he is gaining so well on his own. Most kittens with a mom will resist being bottle fed.

Also, most runts will eventually catch up, even months down the road. The runt of a litter I kept ended up being the biggest grown cat of the four kittens. He’s now HUGE but you would never have suspected he would grow so big as small as he was. (He’s six years old now!)

Amoxicillin was a wise decision!

Thanks for rescuing again! Keep us posted - you’re doing a fantastic job. :lovecat2:
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
“BUT...in a 24 hour period he does end up gaining between 12g and 20g which is in the normal parameters.“

Yes, it is, and so he is definitely the runt, but he is doing very well if he is gaining like this consistently, day after day. He may have been conceived a few days later, or squished in the uterus, but he sounds like he’s very determined to get his fair share!

It’s certainly worth offering him extra, but I would not force it since he is gaining so well on his own. Most kittens with a mom will resist being bottle fed.

Also, most runts will eventually catch up, even months down the road. The runt of a litter I kept ended up being the biggest grown cat of the four kittens. He’s now HUGE but you would never have suspected he would grow so big as small as he was. (He’s six years old now!)

Amoxicillin was a wise decision!

Thanks for rescuing again! Keep us posted - you’re doing a fantastic job. :lovecat2:
Aww, thank you kindly for taking the time to answer!
I do intuit that he is ok...I have just been wracked with worry throughout this whole process and second guessing myself constantly. Definitely more then I did when I was younger at one point slinging 13 various orphaned bottle babies around like it was nothing!
Guess it takes some time to get back into the swing of things and I figure it's better to over worry the under worry...but I definitely think I was starting to annoy the vets 😬

I am SO thankful to have a place to post a question like this full cat professionals and lovers!

And duh on my part, you are absolutely right about runts...I have one now that was a bottle fed baby of mine who was a tiny teeny runt and he is HUGE. He is 18 lbs still and is 15 years old. His name is Mr. P aka P-Nut
20210324_205221.jpg


Thank you again for your expertise and encouragement! ❤
 

StefanZ

Advisor
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
25,999
Purraise
10,648
Location
Sweden
Yes, growing 12-20 grammes a day is good! But if you worry about him being pushed during the day by biggies, you can try to let him be alone with momma sometimes. Say when biggy is sleeping, set tiny to momma...

Also, yes, its fully possible someone of the littermates is by nature more petite than the others. This is very common with females, but may happen with males too.

IF he would need extra, my recommendation would be raw goats milk if you can find it. But dont do this now if you arent forced; as handnursing has too its risks (even if you ARE very experienced since earlier).
But when the kittens begin to take food by themselves, you can give him some.

And you can give this to momma already now. Good extra nourishment for her.

(ps and YOU can also take some goats milk; processed for humans or this "goats milk for cats and animals"
 

di and bob

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
16,582
Purraise
22,961
Location
Nebraska, USA
You can find goat's milk at Walmart too. I would try to get the little one more time with mama too. maybe wake him up when all are sleeping and let him nurse without fighting. I know you can't be there all the time, but a few extra alone times a day might help. they are adorable! You sound like a concerned caregiver, I will pray that your tiny one grows big and strong!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Good morning my fellow kitty lovers.

Thank you so much for your suggestions...I will go get some raw goats milk today, even if to mix with Bronia's food for extra nutrition.
I have been trying to give Milo extra time on the nip.

Yesterday, I noticed that Milo didn't gain any weight during the day, which has happened before so I wasn't too concerned. He was still nursing often though and was acting normal (for a neonate). But now officially he has only gained 5 grams in 24 hours. He weighed 288 grams yesterday morning and only 294g this morning.
Here is a brief breakdown of his recent weight
3/20 - am 222g pm 226g
3/21 - am 242g 2:30pm 240g 9pm 247g
3/22 - am 255g 3pm 259g. 10pm 259g
3/23 am 268g 12pm 267g 9pm 274
3/24 am 288g 12pm 287g 9pm 287g
3/25 am 293-4 :(

Right now he is playing with mom, he was sleeping on top of his brothers when I walked in this morning and now looks like he is searching for a nipple. He tries to walk around and has started to observe the world to the best of his tiny kitten ability. He does not have those 'sick' kittens symptoms besides slower weight gain.

Maybe yesterday he seemed to be searching for a nipple longer then usual and maybe he was letting the nipple go earlier then usual bit he was also staying attached and falling asleep drinking like his brothers.

His eyes opened completely overnight.

I did notice that Major Briggs, his swirly colored brother also stalled in weight when his eyes were opening (but it picked up exponentially that night).

So, I don't know, I'm so worried about him.
The vet that's been seeing them is not in today and I don't have the same trusting relationship with his partner.
I'm going to text the rescue vet I used to work with to see what she says. She has never seen the kittens in person, just via pics and text.

Oh, I forgot to add that Bronia, the mom, had a horrible case of tapeworm and roundworm. My vet treated her for roundworm with pyrentyl two weeks apart but couldn't do anything for the tapeworm until kittens were weaned.

I wonder if this could have something to do with his lack of weight gain?

OR, could he have diarrhea that I am not seeing because mom licks it up and he is slightly dehydrated? He is on the 7th day of amoxicillin, this could easily cause digestive upset.

I was thinking of giving him a few mls of lactated ringers if I don't see a spike in weight gain today.

Could mom be not producing enough milk, or the huge chonk of the litter drinking more then his share?

I also saw fleas two days ago, had a flea comb come in last night and I was going to bathe and comb the babies today...is this related?

I'm trying to stay positive, but I know how quickly a baby kit can turn for the worse.

Should I try to get him seen today? Should I watch and see what happens today?

New high tech nipples come in last night with the flea comb, will give those a try...

Again, thank you for listening and am always grateful for thoughts and suggestions.

20210325_081523.jpg



Cuteness (Milo in the middle)
20210324_190758.jpg


20210325_082852.jpg
Upside-down Gene Chonk
 

Sarthur2

Cat lady extraordinaire
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
35,987
Purraise
17,680
Location
Sunny Florida
I think you may be over-thinking a bit here. Your little guy is not quite 2 weeks old (2 weeks on Saturday) and at 294 grams, already weighs 10.3 ounces. The recommended minimum weight for a 2-week old kitten is 8 ounces. He is doing great! His eyes are open and he is beginning to move around. Kittens can plateau in weight gain for a day or two and be fine. He only needs to weigh 12 ounces at 3 weeks. Your little guy is doing quite well for himself!

You should really only weigh once per day at the same time every 24 hours.

Do NOT give lactated ringer fluids to a kitten this small. He does not need it and it can be dangerous.

I see no reason why you need to see a vet today.

I do not recommend bathing tiny kittens. A flea comb does well enough at this stage.

Mom can have a dose of flea meds on the back of her neck and it will help to keep fleas at bay for the entire family. She can also be treated for tapeworms while nursing. It is very safe.

When is the amoxicillin finished?

Please try to relax and enjoy this little family! 😊

@CntridbyCats
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
I think you may be over-thinking a bit here. Your little guy is not quite 2 weeks old (2 weeks on Saturday) and at 294 grams, already weighs 10.3 ounces. The recommended minimum weight for a 2-week old kitten is 8 ounces. He is doing great! His eyes are open and he is beginning to move around. Kittens can plateau in weight gain for a day or two and be fine. He only needs to weigh 12 ounces at 3 weeks. Your little guy is doing quite well for himself!

You should really only weigh once per day at the same time every 24 hours.

Do NOT give lactated ringer fluids to a kitten this small. He does not need it and it can be dangerous.

I see no reason why you need to see a vet today.

I do not recommend bathing tiny kittens. A flea comb does well enough at this stage.

Mom can have a dose of flea meds on the back of her neck and it will help to keep fleas at bay for the entire family. She can also be treated for tapeworms while nursing. It is very safe.

When is the amoxicillin finished?

Please try to relax and enjoy this little family! 😊

@CntridbyCats
Ah, the story of my life...anxious over thinking. If I had a penny, as they say.
But you are right, he is ok...whatever weight he didn't gain over the past 24 hours he gained back and then some in the last 6.

And by bathing I meant lightly dampening his fur and brushing him with flea comb (although I did get that method from the internet)
Gosh, my anxiety would ⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆
If I had to actually bathe the tiny thing.

And the lacted ringers of course I would only give if he were having a crisis (not moving, not responding etc) but unfortunately my mind always goes to the worst place at the slightest hiccup when I'm anxious.
Such is anxiety, it's often hard to tell that is what that feeling is when you're in it.

Those poor kittens must get tired quickly carrying the heavy burden of my mental health on their tiny fuzzy shoulders 😬🥴

Thank you for responding, I do admit your post is what snapped me out of it and I am very grateful for that.
❤❤
20210325_095716.jpg

But I mean, look at him...kinda makes my anxiety a but more understandable, no?
He's so freaking cute and definitely an old soul.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Hello!
3 out of the 4 of my four week old still nursing on mom foster babies have orange poop (a little more orange then the mustard yellow I was used to from bottle nursing babies).
I did find some info on older threads
(4-week old kittens with bright orange, runny poop) but hope to get some advice on solutions.

I noticed 3 orange backsides approximately 5 days ago, but so far I have only seen actual diarrhea from one (Major Briggs) kitten 3 days ago.
My vet wasn't very concerned but finally agreed to deworm with Pyrentyl 0.2ml on 4/7 at the advice of an old rescue vet I used to work with (my regular vet says he would rather not treat them until they're older since they are so smoll unless it's critical but he is also never worked with rescues).
I've so far witnessed Major having diarrhea 5 times and can tell he gets uncomfortable right before he goes 😔

I've been stimulating Major Briggs so I can catch a poop sample (mom usually cleans them before I can get to them) and was finally successful yesterday and brought a good amount of orange goo for a fecal to my vet.
It was negative for everything, I even asked him to double check for coccidia as that is the most dangerous (in my opinion). Nothing.
Since they want NOTHING to do with bottle feeding so no pedialite, he told me to give Major Briggs 4 to 5ml of LRS up to two twice a day if needed.
I did think he seemed a tiny bit dehydrated yesterday so got 4ml yesterday at 4 and 4 ml today at noon.
I used a butterfly rig and he really didn't fuss too much but I'd rather not put him through that anymore.

Neither vet was very concerned about the state of poop in my kits, they are still acting totally normal - attacking, running, pouncing, climbing, and gaining a minimum of 15g a day and nursing.

Ok, so now that I got my ADD ridden rambled back story out, here are my questions.

Rescue vet (Dr. F) reminded me that we used to use probiotics to treat kitten runny poop almost exclusively back in the day so I got Proviable, a Kitten Lady recommended product which should be here in a few hours. Is anyone familiar with this product (it is supposed to be better then Bene-Bac gel) and has used it successfully?
Not sure how I'll administer since the babies don't bottle feed but I'll guess I'll figure it out.
I left a link to it below..

(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O477W0/?tag=thecatsite)

Dr. P, my regular vet (without much rescue experience and little kitten interaction but an EXCELLENT vet to all my cats for years and ex boss) recommended trying to wean the kittens to get them on solid food to get solid poop.
But I remember that the weaning process sometimes RESULTED in diarrhea in my rescues until homeostasis was reached so am not sure about this one.

If it is roundworm as stated on another 'orange poop' thread (although fecal was negative, but given 2 days after pyrentyl), how long after treatment does their poo go back to normal?

Any other suggestions, thoughts?
Thank you!!

And SO glad to see the site back!
Thank you to whoever takes care of this site in the background and all that help out!

20210406_220059.jpg
20210406_120510.jpg
20210404_094719.jpg
 

lutece

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 8, 2018
Messages
4,499
Purraise
5,739
Did your vet perform a fecal float test, or fecal PCR test?

If your vet didn't do a PCR panel, that is what I would personally try. You can run it yourself through Zoologix.

I wouldn't be extremely concerned either, since it sounds like they are doing well, but a PCR panel is not too expensive and includes a lot of common pathogens that cause diarrhea in cats.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Did your vet perform a fecal float test, or fecal PCR test?

If your vet didn't do a PCR panel, that is what I would personally try. You can run it yourself through Zoologix.

I wouldn't be extremely concerned either, since it sounds like they are doing well, but a PCR panel is not too expensive and includes a lot of common pathogens that cause diarrhea in cats.
Yes, it was a fecal float. I will definitely send out some kitten poop to do a PCR panel, especially now that this morning momma had diarrhea also.

(And thank you for sharing the Zoologix website with me, what an invaluable resource that I doubt I would have come across without your help.)

Up until this morning momma cat has been from mildly to moderately constipated. She was getting extra water in her canned food and felovite when it was at its worst, although that was a over a week ago.
Is the kitten and then momma cat getting diarrhea related? Could it be bacterial/viral?

Momma cat has only been treated with pyrentyl although she does have tapeworms, but my vet won't treat her for those until the kits are 6 weeks no matter how often I bring it up.

Fingers CROSSED that Major Briggs is getting better...I didn't see any orange plops overnight like I did yesterday and I have given him 2 doses of Proviable Probiotic so far but have to feed the chickens before checking thoroughly. Momma cat has only gotten one, I will start the whole family today I guess.

God, my vet must be SO tired of hearing that I called....but ya know, I probably paid for his rent this month so he kinda has to deal with it (jk)

I gotta say, it's so important to donate to your local rescue groups and shelters. Fostering without a rescue group has gotten REALLY expensive and made me really appreciate the help rescues provide.

Thank you for listening ❤
 

Sarthur2

Cat lady extraordinaire
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
35,987
Purraise
17,680
Location
Sunny Florida
Orange stool indicates too much bile. It can be an indication of liver issues, though it can resolve on its own. What meds or supplements have you given the kittens so far? Are they still on mom’s milk only?

I would give mom the probiotic, but not the kittens. Mom sounds like she could use a round of metronidazole. Have you inquired about this yet?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Orange stool indicates too much bile. It can be an indication of liver issues, though it can resolve on its own. What meds or supplements have you given the kittens so far? Are they still on mom’s milk only?

I would give mom the probiotic, but not the kittens. Mom sounds like she could use a round of metronidazole. Have you inquired about this yet?
So I belive 3 out of the 4 kittens have orange poop, 2 for sure have diarrhea.
The only meds they have gotten is amoxicillin which they started when they were 5 days old and finished 10 days later. And pyrantel on the 6th, 0.2ml each.
Same with mom, except she has gotten pyrantel several times and her antibiotic was the long acting shot one.

I did give 2 of the babies probiotics (ones that have diarrhea), 1 once and the other 3 times (followed directions on Proviable box) and mom also.

Mom's diarrhea started today, I just called the vet but they are busy and will call back later.
The kittens are only drinking mom's milk.
I didn't want to shock their systems further by trying to wean although that is what my vet suggested.
My vet does not seem concerned about the diarrhea nor the color but I AM.
I have spoken to him several times, took kitten poop to him so he can look at it and do a fecal.
I do have left over metronidazole from my cat from about 3 months ago, I will mention it when he calls.

At what point should I consider this an emergency? One kitten has had diarrhea for 5-6 days now that I know of.

So the orange poop means something is going on with their livers? Why only 3? Or is it that I just haven't seen the 4th because mom still stimulates them?Could it be related to mom/mom's milk?

What is my next step? Vet closes at 1 today and is closed tomorrow.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Oh, I wanted to add that the kittens are still gaining weight, although a little less then the days before..but that has happened before.
They are still playing...but they seem to be sleeping more but that could very well be me having anxiety and they are sleeping a normal amount.
They are exactly 4 weeks old today.
 

Sarthur2

Cat lady extraordinaire
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
35,987
Purraise
17,680
Location
Sunny Florida
You might want to consult another vet about the kitten who has had diarrhea for 5 days. Otherwise the kittens sound healthy. I’m thinking the orange poop may be from something in mom’s milk, but if all she is getting now is a probiotic that should not cause problems. It’s puzzling.
 

lutece

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 8, 2018
Messages
4,499
Purraise
5,739
Has mom come into heat? Sometimes that can cause poop issues in nursing kittens.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Hello!
I am really freaking out right now.
I found blood in one of my kittens dirrhea, it's little specks of it, looks fresh.
So far it's only one. His brother pooped right after and had a normal bowel movement.
I noticed it because the kitten in question stepped in it and when I wiped his food I noticed it on the paper towel.

There has not been any diarrhea in any of the kittens for about 10+ days. There was a looser then usual stool in the litterbox last night.They have switched to solid food successfully and have been eating kitten food (wellness brand kitten food and nulo kitten dry food)
sometimes mixed with a KMR (only about once a day, sometimes not at all) but always mixed with water.
They have been eating regularly for about a week.
Their poop changed to brown once they started eating kitten food and has been brown for about 7 days now. The feces is well formed, has bordered on too dry a few times.

The kitten (Timber) is acting totally normal. He ate this morning and last night...
I did note last night that after eating he kinda seemed to look uncomfortable for a minute or two, like he layer down with his feet under him little scrunched up and was licking his chops.....I do not know why I though he looked uncomfortable, it was just something that came to my head. He might have just been sitting there after eating, not uncomfortable but just sitting. I have been known to be overly paranoid 😶
He did slow down on his weight gain a bit, but still gained 26g in 48 hours (he weighs 958g)

I did give all the kittens their second dose of pyrantel pamoate yeaterday. I did give it a few days (5) too late.
Two smaller (about 950g) .4 and two bigger ones (over kg) .5.

They have not been treated for tapeworm...my vet said to wait until they are 8 weeks and that the medicine can be more harmful then the tapeworm.
I do believe he said he wa going to give them revolution which I was reading JUST NOW, does not treat for tapeworm!


*not all the red spots are blood, I've drawn an arrow to the specks. Some of the red is IN the crumbled paper litter I've been using.

The last picture is of the brothers poop.
20210502_104851.jpg
20210502_104753.jpg

20210502_110202.jpg


Of course this happens on a Sunday 🤬
Can it be from the pyrantel?
I'm not rushing him to the vet today, right?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Oh, I forgot to add that they are 7 weeks old.
I did also feed them one can of Halo brand kitten food I accidently got yesterday. They've been getting wellness brand exclusively
 

Sarthur2

Cat lady extraordinaire
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
35,987
Purraise
17,680
Location
Sunny Florida
No need to freak out. It was probably irritation from the different food or the pyrantel. Changing foods will often cause upset, so stick with what they are used to and keep an eye out. If you continue to see blood, the kitten may need metronidazole, but wait and see.

If they are past the stage of eating litter you can switch to clumping litter if you like.
C CntrldbyCats
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20

CntrldbyCats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
30
Purraise
40
Sarthur2 Sarthur2 (and all the other kind folk on here who take time out to help people do best by their cat)
You are, in my eyes, real heroe(s).
I want to thank you SO much for helping me (and all the other countless nerve wracked souls in need of advice on here) throughout this rewarding but often very stressful journey.
I am awed and inspired by your love and commitment (and knowledge) to all things cat/mommy cat/kitten, so again...thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I will pay it forward to both to human folk and cat folk, whenever I can.

Two of my babies went to their furever home today, and although I couldn't ask for a better home for them (new cat parents are cat obsessed, wealthy, and work from home) it is bittersweet. Reminded me again to thank you. Because that's the end goal, to get healthy kittens into healthy homes.

And you were right, it must have been either the pyrantel or different brand food, Timbers poop went back to perfectly normal the next bowel movement.

🤗
 
Top