One complex question and one easier (hopefully) one

[catsarebetter]

Thank you so much for offering us your expertise and time. You have no idea how much it is appreciated!

I guess I should start out with the break down of what I have here.

One four bedroom, 3.5 bath townhouse, two whole floors for the cats to roam (one floor closed off). We have.. one adult male F3 Bengal (almost three years) named Khan. One 8 month old female Bengal kitten, later generation, named Joyeux. One 16 week old Tonkinese kitten, unaltered as of yet, but coming soon, named Pogue. One 9.5 year old domestic short hair, alpha, named Noel. One handshy, slightly nuts Egyptian Mau, almost 3 years old, named Bagheera.

Noel has always been the alpha. She is now (and has had this tendency in the past) started to become very aggressive toward Kahn specifically, and less so to the others, although they sort of just look at her and shrug. Kahn and she will occasionally get into it, slightly less since we've been using a Feliway plug-in and quite a lot of No Mark spray, along with Bach's rescue remedy in the water fountains. We obviously need more Feliway diffusers, but my issue here is it's not stopping it completely, and she'll still do things like lay in wait for him to crest the top of the stairs at bedtime. He sleeps in my sister's room. Anyway.. I'm trying to figure out some way to lessen the aggression between the two of them. He also terrorizes Bagheera, about once a day. Everyone else gets along just fine.

I talked to my vet about Prozac for the two of them. The vet suggested Feliway. She said Prozac or similar drugs can be a lifetime remedy, and can also cause problems with organ damage. The breeder we got Joyeux from said Depovera shots is what she gives to her retired males. We discussed that with our vet and they didn't think it was a good idea. I had wondered if giving Depovera increases the estrogen levels and therefore reduces the aggression? And if that's the case.. would it potentially work on Noel as well, since she's spayed? I need to figure out a solution and I have no idea what to do about it if the Feliway either stops working or doesn't work more completely than what it currently is. *EDIT* I wanted to add here, as I saw it on another thread and realized I had forgotten to mention it..that Kahn "bogarts" the litter box when Bagheera is in it. He stalks her, and particularly waits for her while she's in the litter box often keeping her from finishing her business due to fear.

Do you have any suggestions about what solution might be available to stop this behavior?


The second situation is... we got the Tonk from a breeder.. he was apparently not completely weaned when we got him (although he was eating solid food and drinking perfectly fine). He just still reverts to it, I'm guessing it's comforting to him. Now, he doesn't do it to any of the other cats, or to the humans, or teddy bears or anything else, only to the Bengal kitten (probably because she'll let him). Is this something that he'll grow out of? We've been trying to discourage him. I've tried squirting him with water when he does it. I've tried removing him and tapping his nose and telling him no. I've tried holding him until he forgets about it. He's really quite determined and won't give up on it. Is there some way to break him of this habit? It seems obvious to me that there's something he needs, and perhaps if we knew how to provide it for him, he'd break the habit. Hopefully you have some suggestions.

Thank you so much for all of your time and energy!

 

[jcat]

 

[catsarebetter]

Thanks, ma'am!

 

[catsarebetter]

self-bumping

 

[catpsych]

Wow, you've got quite a house full. One way to lessen the aggression in your home is to set up a sanctuary room for the aggressive cat (complete with food, water, litterbox, and scratching post), he is to stay in there for at least a week at first. This will allow the aggressor to rezone his territory and not dominate the whole house. And it gives the submissive kitty a change to regain their confidence by having free roam of the home. After a week you can begin to let the aggressor out in intervals, as soon as he starts in on the submissive kitty, he goes back to his room immediately. However if you can catch the aggressive behavior before it happens, divert the aggressor's attention, have him follow you into the kitchen for a yummy treat or strike up a game with him, anything to keep him distracted. The feliway plugins are a great thing to use too, so you're on the right track.

As for your new addition to the family, it is totally natural for him to want to nurse and knead still, as long as the other kitten doesn't mind it is no problem. The new kitten will grow out of it shortly, so no worries there. Just please do not punish the kitty for doing what is natural, it is perfectly normal for them to do this, and the oriental breeds tend to nurse longer than other breeds (10 weeks compared to 8 weeks, they actually suggest that Oriental breeds should not leave their mothers and littermates until 10 weeks of age because of it.) do this I promise is normal and no need for punishment here. I hope this helps out a bit and congrats on the new addition to the family!

Take care,
Kerry

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

Thank you so much for offering us your expertise and time. You have no idea how much it is appreciated!

I guess I should start out with the break down of what I have here.

One four bedroom, 3.5 bath townhouse, two whole floors for the cats to roam (one floor closed off). We have.. one adult male F3 Bengal (almost three years) named Khan. One 8 month old female Bengal kitten, later generation, named Joyeux. One 16 week old Tonkinese kitten, unaltered as of yet, but coming soon, named Pogue. One 9.5 year old domestic short hair, alpha, named Noel. One handshy, slightly nuts Egyptian Mau, almost 3 years old, named Bagheera.

Noel has always been the alpha. She is now (and has had this tendency in the past) started to become very aggressive toward Kahn specifically, and less so to the others, although they sort of just look at her and shrug. Kahn and she will occasionally get into it, slightly less since we've been using a Feliway plug-in and quite a lot of No Mark spray, along with Bach's rescue remedy in the water fountains. We obviously need more Feliway diffusers, but my issue here is it's not stopping it completely, and she'll still do things like lay in wait for him to crest the top of the stairs at bedtime. He sleeps in my sister's room. Anyway.. I'm trying to figure out some way to lessen the aggression between the two of them. He also terrorizes Bagheera, about once a day. Everyone else gets along just fine.

I talked to my vet about Prozac for the two of them. The vet suggested Feliway. She said Prozac or similar drugs can be a lifetime remedy, and can also cause problems with organ damage. The breeder we got Joyeux from said Depovera shots is what she gives to her retired males. We discussed that with our vet and they didn't think it was a good idea. I had wondered if giving Depovera increases the estrogen levels and therefore reduces the aggression? And if that's the case.. would it potentially work on Noel as well, since she's spayed? I need to figure out a solution and I have no idea what to do about it if the Feliway either stops working or doesn't work more completely than what it currently is. *EDIT* I wanted to add here, as I saw it on another thread and realized I had forgotten to mention it..that Kahn "bogarts" the litter box when Bagheera is in it. He stalks her, and particularly waits for her while she's in the litter box often keeping her from finishing her business due to fear.

Do you have any suggestions about what solution might be available to stop this behavior?


The second situation is... we got the Tonk from a breeder.. he was apparently not completely weaned when we got him (although he was eating solid food and drinking perfectly fine). He just still reverts to it, I'm guessing it's comforting to him. Now, he doesn't do it to any of the other cats, or to the humans, or teddy bears or anything else, only to the Bengal kitten (probably because she'll let him). Is this something that he'll grow out of? We've been trying to discourage him. I've tried squirting him with water when he does it. I've tried removing him and tapping his nose and telling him no. I've tried holding him until he forgets about it. He's really quite determined and won't give up on it. Is there some way to break him of this habit? It seems obvious to me that there's something he needs, and perhaps if we knew how to provide it for him, he'd break the habit. Hopefully you have some suggestions.

Thank you so much for all of your time and energy!

 

[catsarebetter]

Thank you for your reply! I think maybe I need to clarify.. I have three "problem" kitties.. Bagheera, who is just the submissive cat.. Kahn who is the bully, and Noel who is the alpha. The problem between Kahn and Noel has just recently started, with Noel still retaining the alpha status, but Kahn will do things like hide under a chair or something, and then jump out and "hamstring" her..or iow, attack her from behind, and then run back under wherever it is and growl. Now, most of the time when this happens, Noel is minding her own business. But then Noel will do things like, sit at the top of the stairs and refuse to let Kahn go to bed (we've had to resort to carrying him to his bedroom for bedtime. This problem has been going on for about two/three months, and since the feliway it's lessened some, but is still frequent. Every once in a while, they'll really get into and they'll be chasing and fighting (usually that's Noel chasing Kahn and cornering him, and this is when it's getting out of control). Now, Kahn and Noel do have "territory" set up, sort of. Noel's territory is my room and Kahn's is my sister's room, but they will venture into each other's territory. We won't have any issue with locking Kahn into his room if need be, since he likes it there, but I am going to run into an issue with Noel being locked away somewhere. She'll tear up the doors and carpet around the door. I'm not sure if you were suggesting to lock her up, to give Kahn time to get over it, or if you were suggesting that I lock Kahn up to give Bagheera time to adjust? We have locked Kahn up for short time periods previously..mostly when he was out of control with Bagheera. Sometimes that time period was a few days.

Kahn has always chased Bagheera, bullied her, and done things like stalked her in the litter box. He'll also pin her down and she'll "scream".. no really, she screams. But then you know, she'll come out, but she's hesitant, but she's fortunately not one of those cats that hides in the corner of the room and won't come out ever. She is still the timid one, though. She's always watching over her shoulder for Kahn (she also has issues with dealing with people..she was sort of a rescue). She also knows that running to us protects her from Kahn, and will often do that. It does seem like when she runs, it triggers his behavior, and he locks on and starts to target her the minute she starts looking nervous. Do you think Buspar might do well for her? She and Kahn have been doing this for well over a year. I noticed in another thread, you suggested Buspar and the explanation/details were so precisely their story that it was kind of like oh my gosh, my cats live at someone else's house too! She's timid in a number of areas, dealing with Kahn is only one of them. I *think* Joyeux, the marbled menace, has now taken a clue from her "papa Kahn" and occasionally is chasing Bagheera too, but I'm not 100% on that since they do often play together. Joyeux seems to jump on the "chase" train if she sees Kahn chasing Bagheera.

Of course, giving her (Bagheera) anything is going to be nothing short of a miracle. She's petrified about being handled, too smart to lock up or corner, won't be "locked" away into a bathroom to eat, and knows instinctively when medication has entered the house.

Thank you again, Kerry. I really appreciate your time on this!

 

[catpsych]

Hi there,
Wow, I think since all your kitties are having issues, whether it be dominace or submission, or just plain hiding from others I think you should schedule a consultation with a vet who is certified in animal behavior. They can evaluate the situation and prescribe meds. Because in your situation you're not going to be able to lock each kitty in their own room, medication will mostly likely be needed to re-establish peace within your home. And you've already tried Feliway and you mentioned you have plenty of space for the kitties, so I think medication may be the route to go in your situation. So, contact your vet and see if he or she can help you find a vet who is certified in animal behavior if they are not. Good Luck and I hope peace is restored shortly.

Take care,
Kerry

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

Thank you for your reply! I think maybe I need to clarify.. I have three "problem" kitties.. Bagheera, who is just the submissive cat.. Kahn who is the bully, and Noel who is the alpha. The problem between Kahn and Noel has just recently started, with Noel still retaining the alpha status, but Kahn will do things like hide under a chair or something, and then jump out and "hamstring" her..or iow, attack her from behind, and then run back under wherever it is and growl. Now, most of the time when this happens, Noel is minding her own business. But then Noel will do things like, sit at the top of the stairs and refuse to let Kahn go to bed (we've had to resort to carrying him to his bedroom for bedtime. This problem has been going on for about two/three months, and since the feliway it's lessened some, but is still frequent. Every once in a while, they'll really get into and they'll be chasing and fighting (usually that's Noel chasing Kahn and cornering him, and this is when it's getting out of control). Now, Kahn and Noel do have "territory" set up, sort of. Noel's territory is my room and Kahn's is my sister's room, but they will venture into each other's territory. We won't have any issue with locking Kahn into his room if need be, since he likes it there, but I am going to run into an issue with Noel being locked away somewhere. She'll tear up the doors and carpet around the door. I'm not sure if you were suggesting to lock her up, to give Kahn time to get over it, or if you were suggesting that I lock Kahn up to give Bagheera time to adjust? We have locked Kahn up for short time periods previously..mostly when he was out of control with Bagheera. Sometimes that time period was a few days.

Kahn has always chased Bagheera, bullied her, and done things like stalked her in the litter box. He'll also pin her down and she'll "scream".. no really, she screams. But then you know, she'll come out, but she's hesitant, but she's fortunately not one of those cats that hides in the corner of the room and won't come out ever. She is still the timid one, though. She's always watching over her shoulder for Kahn (she also has issues with dealing with people..she was sort of a rescue). She also knows that running to us protects her from Kahn, and will often do that. It does seem like when she runs, it triggers his behavior, and he locks on and starts to target her the minute she starts looking nervous. Do you think Buspar might do well for her? She and Kahn have been doing this for well over a year. I noticed in another thread, you suggested Buspar and the explanation/details were so precisely their story that it was kind of like oh my gosh, my cats live at someone else's house too! She's timid in a number of areas, dealing with Kahn is only one of them. I *think* Joyeux, the marbled menace, has now taken a clue from her "papa Kahn" and occasionally is chasing Bagheera too, but I'm not 100% on that since they do often play together. Joyeux seems to jump on the "chase" train if she sees Kahn chasing Bagheera.

Of course, giving her (Bagheera) anything is going to be nothing short of a miracle. She's petrified about being handled, too smart to lock up or corner, won't be "locked" away into a bathroom to eat, and knows instinctively when medication has entered the house.

Thank you again, Kerry. I really appreciate your time on this!