Non recognition aggression

[D_H]

I believe that play sessions were one of the things that really helped us; One reason for the aggressor to be, well, aggressive, is stress.*
We've found that 20 minute sessions, several times during the day, really helped her to build back her confidence.
At first we played with the cats in different rooms, each one of us played with a different cat.
Then we started to open a door just a bit, and over time they were playing in the same area! The trick was to keep them focus on the game, rather than the fact that there's another cat in the room.

Lots of patience & good vibes

*Another reason would be the fact that she's a !@#$*& *&%.. but we love her anyway

 

[Alldara]

arr Yes definitely a good idea to plan ahead.

If you can use the towel to gather some smell beforehand from each cat, it works even better.

Decompression worked really well for Nobel. If it was someone else going to the vet, Nobel would get one bedroom, the other cat the other bedroom and third cat had free roam.

With all the geriatric visits, they got more used to the routine and the other cat coming home.

D_H Yes play is amazing to build confidence and keep that nervous energy down.

 

[arr]

Thought I’d give an update. We had a disappointment today. We really felt all the signs were there for a reunion. Playing under the door, sometimes talking through the door, eating right at the uncovered gate, everyone always hanging near the door, seemingly wanting to be together. So we did high value treats at the gate, removed the gate, and everyone ate lunch together at their usual spot in the kitchen. Later, mama cat and her boy sniffed each other and groomed each other and all seemed well. Girl kitten went downstairs after eating as she likes to do, and I had a toy upstairs for mama. Later, girl comes up and approaches us and mama hisses and screams and runs away. Good news is, there was no fight at all. I sent the kittens down to the basement and locked mama back up in the sanctuary room.

It’s pretty crushing. I’m just trying to tell myself that if we made it this far, we can do it again. We think the main problem is that girl kitten and mama didn’t do any sort of sniffing and greeting before she went down, and mama became suspicious when she saw a cat coming up the stairs from the basement.

I’m debating speaking to the vet tomorrow about getting mama cat on some kind of drug to calm down this territorial behavior. I’m not sure if it’s a good idea or not.

 

[D_H]

It’s pretty crushing. I’m just trying to tell myself that if we made it this far, we can do it again

It is crushing, and yes you will go through it

Grooming is an excellent step here, and it means a lot!
Perhaps you can try to do it more one on one? If she's cool with one kitten- let him stay in the same room with her, and continue the process with the others

 

[arr]

It’s been 11 days now. Yesterday we took Penny to the vet to see about medication and if that would help with the reintroduction. They prescribed her gabapentin 100mg twice a day. Yesterday evening I gave her the capsule and she became very sedated, wobbly. I felt terrible. This morning I decided I’m going to give her half a capsule instead, which is difficult because it’s not a tablet and it also seems glued because I can’t twist it apart. So I cut it in half with a scissor, my husband and myself each holding a half and trying to keep the powder in each side. It worked well and I put each half in a pill pocket and saved the other half for this evening in a sealed container in the fridge. I can see that the 50mg still has a big effect on her, she tried jumping on the counter and fell down. I feel terrible, she is not herself, but she is at least alert enough to enjoy some bird watching this morning.

And this morning when feeding through the gate, her and her son were sniffing through the gate very calmly, and I believe she would’ve done the same with Chloe if Chloe would have approached her, but Chloe is a timid cat. So we are going to be working on her and Chloe today, high value treats to get them close.

The vet suggested Feliway Optimum diffusers so I ordered them and they arrive tomorrow. I had known about them but wasn’t interested in trying because I didn’t believe it would make that much of a difference, based on reviews, but the vet said in her decades of experience, she has seen it help more often than not. So I figure it can’t hurt.

To be honest, I feel terrible that I am medicating her. Some people go months with reintroductions before resorting to medication, but part of the problem is the timing. We have an out of town trip in less than a week and a half and a new pet sitter lined up and I don’t want them trying to deal with this. I never dreamed this would happen. If I had known, I would’ve done the vet in January when we had all the time in the world, or scheduled things after this trip.

 

[arr]

It is crushing, and yes you will go through it

Grooming is an excellent step here, and it means a lot!
Perhaps you can try to do it more one on one? If she's cool with one kitten- let him stay in the same room with her, and continue the process with the others

I hadn’t thought of that, but if things take much longer, I may do it, to at least give her some company.

 

[Alldara]

I've had good luck with the Feliway. (I think people are more likely to write negative reviews than positive feedback.)

I use the Multicat formula at home. I noticed that the cats will spend their downtime in whatever area of the house has a plugin. We have one on each floor. Nobel was less hissy with it and less anxious for sure. I note that the other two were less jumpy.

There's other medications you could try if gabapentin is too strong. Medications for actuate anxiety like gabapentin are basically tranquilizers, so her reaction makes sense.
Medications for Cat Behavior Problems: Aggression, Anxiety, and More on MedicineNet

the timing is awful for sure, but you couldn't have known.

 

[Alldara]

I hadn’t thought of that, but if things take much longer, I may do it, to at least give her some company.

You can split his time up between the two cats definitely. Good enrichment for all!

 

[arr]

Just wanted to keep updating, in case someone else ever has this problem and comes to this thread. We are on day 13 of the non recognition aggression. I have Penny on 50mg gabapentin twice a day. It seems like a good amount to make her calmer but not completely out of it. The Feliway diffusers arrived yesterday so I have those going.

We are making progress. We are now feeding them all together in their old spot in the kitchen. We also continue to do play/treat sessions all together in the bedroom. Today we had probably a 20-25 minute session. Penny didn’t want to play but she sat in the window watching the kittens take turns playing. She looked completely relaxed. At some point she sniffed Fizzbin, sniffed his butt, they seemed comfortable. There came a point where she was down from the window, looked at Chloe, and became extremely uncomfortable. No hissing, but she was staring and backing up and just obviously disturbed body language. I distracted her with a treat, fed the treat to both her and Chloe so their faces were very close, and then we ended the session. We still keep them separated other than meals and play/treat sessions.

Penny seems to have accepted Fizzbin but still hasn’t accepted Chloe. Chloe doesn’t acknowledge her at all. So basically we are now waiting for the two of them to have some kind of moment, a sniff, a lick, a trill, something. Somebody earlier in the thread said that the cats will let you know when they are ready. I’m thinking there is a lot of truth to that. I think if I have to wonder, then they’re not ready.

But, good progress, I think. Went from hissing behind a closed door to eating together again.

 

[D_H]

You're doing great! Almost there

And please keep on updating

 

[arr]

Day 18 of reuniting the cats, I hope this isn’t premature, but I think we made it. We opened everything up this morning so it’s been around eight hours and everything is going good. We started opening things up for longer and longer stretches about two days ago. I’m not entirely relaxed yet, I’m keeping an eye on them as things are still new and feelings are delicate. I’m really hoping this is it, hopefully I won’t be back with a disappointing update.

We stopped the gabapentin three or four days ago. Penny was adapting to it and I really didn’t want to give her a higher dose, plus I wasn’t sure if it was really helping. I think it’s helpful for the early days when the cat is still very riled up, but once they are calm and in their right mind, I figured we could just take time to work on relationships. The Feliway is still going. It’s hard to say if it’s making a difference or not. It does seem that we really started moving forward once we got it going, but it’s possible we were just reaching that point anyway.

I did the scent swapping quite a bit the first week, but dropped off as time went on and I knew they must all smell the same by now. Since we weren’t introducing a new cat, their scents are already everywhere.

Some of the things we started seeing was Chloe rubbing her face on Penny before meals, and Penny being fine with it, Penny licking both cats briefly, a lot of butt sniffing on everyone’s part, and Penny looking relaxed, even laying down, when the kittens were just wandering around. The main thing we wanted to see before opening everything up was Penny acting relaxed when another cat would appear around the corner suddenly.

Looking back, I think what helped the most was making positive associations with every interaction. Every time we brought them together or even to the door and then the gate, it was high value treats and play and fun. Also, using the treats and play to interrupt any bad moments and always trying to end on a positive note. Throwing my timetable away and letting the cats tell us when they were ready, too, making sure they were entirely comfortable before moving ahead.

 

[Alldara]

Looking back, I think what helped the most was making positive associations with every interaction. Every time we brought them together or even to the door and then the gate, it was high value treats and play and fun. Also, using the treats and play to interrupt any bad moments and always trying to end on a positive note. Throwing my timetable away and letting the cats tell us when they were ready, too, making sure they were entirely comfortable before moving ahead.

This is some really solid advice for intros or re-intros.

I'm glad things have progressed so well.

 

[arr]

Hello everyone, I wanted to give some good news about preventing non recognition aggression. Everything has been normal since my last post. Fizzbin had to go to the vet on Monday for bloodwork so this time, we took precautions. I shut the girls in a room so they wouldn’t see us carry him out. When we came back, I shut them in a room again while we got him settled in another room so they wouldn’t see or smell him come in. Then we gave him time to do some grooming, rubbed him down with fabric that had all the cats scent, and fed them Monday night on either side of the door. No problem with that, so Tuesday morning we did breakfast at the baby gates, did lunch at the baby gates, everyone was acting completely normal, so late afternoon we did treats together in a room, and they were all completely normal, so they were reunited the very next day!

Fizzbin has his dental tomorrow morning so we are going to follow these steps again. We are going to give it a little more time because we figure the anesthesia smell will take longer to wear off than just the bloodwork. We will probably keep a closed door on Saturday and start trying the gate Sunday morning. Anyway, we are so relieved that we learned a way to prevent this from occurring. At least with our cat Penny, it seems the key is preventing her from ever smelling the strange smell in the first place.

 

[Alldara]

Hello everyone, I wanted to give some good news about preventing non recognition aggression. Everything has been normal since my last post. Fizzbin had to go to the vet on Monday for bloodwork so this time, we took precautions. I shut the girls in a room so they wouldn’t see us carry him out. When we came back, I shut them in a room again while we got him settled in another room so they wouldn’t see or smell him come in. Then we gave him time to do some grooming, rubbed him down with fabric that had all the cats scent, and fed them Monday night on either side of the door. No problem with that, so Tuesday morning we did breakfast at the baby gates, did lunch at the baby gates, everyone was acting completely normal, so late afternoon we did treats together in a room, and they were all completely normal, so they were reunited the very next day!

Fizzbin has his dental tomorrow morning so we are going to follow these steps again. We are going to give it a little more time because we figure the anesthesia smell will take longer to wear off than just the bloodwork. We will probably keep a closed door on Saturday and start trying the gate Sunday morning. Anyway, we are so relieved that we learned a way to prevent this from occurring. At least with our cat Penny, it seems the key is preventing her from ever smelling the strange smell in the first place.

Oh I'm so glad!

 

[D_H]

That is amazing, I'm so happy for you it went so well!

 

[Jstnh2007]

Hi all, I am going through this now and this is probably harder than when I first introduced my two cats 8 years ago! I feel like such a failure! I am stressed to the max and that is probably not helping.
I am currently on day 11 and we have made some progress. As long as they both smell like vanilla extract all is fine but as soon as it wears off I can see the change in Simon (non vet cat). He starts to get laser focused on Alvin and then yesterday was the first time he growled in a couple days. I think it is also harder for me because neither of my cats like treats. They both snub them! So I don’t have that positive reinforcement. We all have been eat, playing and loving together though. I posted this in another forum and got this group of you want to read up on my story there! I will try to link it!

 

[Jstnh2007]

Hi all, I am going through this now and this is probably harder than when I first introduced my two cats 8 years ago! I feel like such a failure! I am stressed to the max and that is probably not helping.
I am currently on day 11 and we have made some progress. As long as they both smell like vanilla extract all is fine but as soon as it wears off I can see the change in Simon (non vet cat). He starts to get laser focused on Alvin and then yesterday was the first time he growled in a couple days. I think it is also harder for me because neither of my cats like treats. They both snub them! So I don’t have that positive reinforcement. We all have been eat, playing and loving together though. I posted this in another forum and got this group of you want to read up on my story there! I will try to link it!

Here is the link! Need help with non recognition aggression

 

[Jstnh2007]

Here is the link! Need help with non recognition aggression

I have a new update this am. The vanilla extract is no longer working to block the scents. Simon did kind of swat at Alvin this am and then meowed a little but did not engage in a fight. Both walked away. I did not separate them at the time because there was no hissing or growling. I am wondering if I made the right decision?

 

[arr]

First of all, I just want to acknowledge how difficult this non recognition aggression is. When I’ve gone through it, I’m an absolute mess. Ive cried a lot, can’t eat, just felt so hopeless. I felt so sad seeing my little cat family behave like enemies when they used to be good buddies. So you are not a failure! This isn’t your fault, and it’s normal to feel super stressed. We’ve gone through it four times now in three years, and I’m happy to say that the last time, I did much better emotionally because I had learned that it’s going to work out. And I believe that me being less stressed actually helped them to come around faster.

Your situation sounds like it is going very well. No one jumped on the other, so that is a really good sign. I think it’s okay that the vanilla trick is no longer working, simply because it is unsustainable to keep doing that forever. They need to get used to each others true scent.

Since no one is attacking the other as of yet, you may not need to start the introduction over, but when I had hissing and growling, I personally decided to bring them back to the last step where everyone was comfortable. For us that was usually treats and play with a gate in between. You said they aren’t treat motivated, but have you tried any of the paste in a tube treats? We used Temptations brand. I found that having a very high value treat was a game changer in keeping their attention and creating positive association. I would keep looking for something. Think outside the box, it could be some tuna, tiny pieces of ham, tiny bits of chicken, little licks of gerber baby food, the plain meat kind with no garlic or onion. I’ve even done a few shreds of cheese, not so much that they get sick, just a little.
If you can find something they like, keep doing little sessions with it. Treats and attention. Try to get them both eating the treat out of your hand at the same time, so they are forced to touch heads. This works great with paste type treats.

If they will eat meals together peacefully, keep doing that. Basically you want each time they associate to be as positive as possible.

If they have a blanket or some other fabric they have laid on, gently rub each cat with the blanket. Or pet one of them all around the face, and then immediately go pet the other on the face. Try to establish their group scent.

Can you play with each of them in the same room? If they are not at that point, you might need the help of a friend to play with one while you play with the other. This can also be done on either side of a gate instead. Play is so important for building confidence and helping them start to relax and feel secure. If it’s impossible to have someone come and help, it will be just fine if you take the time to play with each separately every day.

They are going to be okay. It doesn’t sound like you’ve had a full on attack, so you are already ahead. Try to remember it won’t last forever and you are not alone in this. So many of us have gone through this. Keep updating us on how it’s going and what you’ve tried, and we will keep trying to help.

 

[Jstnh2007]

First of all, I just want to acknowledge how difficult this non recognition aggression is. When I’ve gone through it, I’m an absolute mess. Ive cried a lot, can’t eat, just felt so hopeless. I felt so sad seeing my little cat family behave like enemies when they used to be good buddies. So you are not a failure! This isn’t your fault, and it’s normal to feel super stressed. We’ve gone through it four times now in three years, and I’m happy to say that the last time, I did much better emotionally because I had learned that it’s going to work out. And I believe that me being less stressed actually helped them to come around faster.

Your situation sounds like it is going very well. No one jumped on the other, so that is a really good sign. I think it’s okay that the vanilla trick is no longer working, simply because it is unsustainable to keep doing that forever. They need to get used to each others true scent.

Since no one is attacking the other as of yet, you may not need to start the introduction over, but when I had hissing and growling, I personally decided to bring them back to the last step where everyone was comfortable. For us that was usually treats and play with a gate in between. You said they aren’t treat motivated, but have you tried any of the paste in a tube treats? We used Temptations brand. I found that having a very high value treat was a game changer in keeping their attention and creating positive association. I would keep looking for something. Think outside the box, it could be some tuna, tiny pieces of ham, tiny bits of chicken, little licks of gerber baby food, the plain meat kind with no garlic or onion. I’ve even done a few shreds of cheese, not so much that they get sick, just a little.
If you can find something they like, keep doing little sessions with it. Treats and attention. Try to get them both eating the treat out of your hand at the same time, so they are forced to touch heads. This works great with paste type treats.

If they will eat meals together peacefully, keep doing that. Basically you want each time they associate to be as positive as possible.

If they have a blanket or some other fabric they have laid on, gently rub each cat with the blanket. Or pet one of them all around the face, and then immediately go pet the other on the face. Try to establish their group scent.

Can you play with each of them in the same room? If they are not at that point, you might need the help of a friend to play with one while you play with the other. This can also be done on either side of a gate instead. Play is so important for building confidence and helping them start to relax and feel secure. If it’s impossible to have someone come and help, it will be just fine if you take the time to play with each separately every day.

They are going to be okay. It doesn’t sound like you’ve had a full on attack, so you are already ahead. Try to remember it won’t last forever and you are not alone in this. So many of us have gone through this. Keep updating us on how it’s going and what you’ve tried, and we will keep trying to help.

Thank you so much! It has been a tough 11 days and I feel like everyone I talk to just blows it off like big deal?? I am able to play with them in the same room (for the most part) and feeding them in the same room has been easy as well. It's just seems to be Simon does not want Alvin near him so when he does walk past him he just swats him away and meows. Alvin is very timid so he was running away and hiding but this morning he didn't do that just walked away to the window. I am just worried Alvin will be afraid of him.

I will try some different kind of treats to see if that helps at all. I am going away Thursday in the morning and will be back Friday evening but am going to separate them through a screen door as I am not comfortable leaving them alone unsupervised for over 24 hours.