Non Pedigree Owners

Maria Bayote

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I used to have dogs as pets, but when I came here to where I am now for work, I started feeding feral and stray cats, then also began rescuing and rehoming kittens/cats. When I first decided to keep a cat of my own from one of the felines I plucked off the street, people kept telling me that my Bourbon looked like a maine coon. Even when i brought her to the vet he said she has a mix of a coon in her. Not just one vet, but two, at separate clinics. I did not know that breed before, but when I checked it out it fascinated me and somehow made me feel good. I hit a jackpot, I told myself.

So yeah, maybe its because some people like to know what kind of cat they are dealing with, to know more of their character and flaws, how to care for them, their health, etc. It's easier with dogs to know the breed right away, but with cats it is much more complicated. Some people probably are just more curious also than others. :)

Not long ago, I have also accepted the fact that my Bourbon is just a regular long-haired domestic cat whom I love so dearly with all my heart. ;)

But I do wish I'd have a purebreed Maine Coon one day. :redheartpump::redheartpump:
 
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vansX2

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Prior to my current Turkish Van's I had Maine Coons.
I switched breeds largely because my wife was tired if all the shedding. Our Maine Coons had some mating issues as well. They needed the "Lion Cut" every summer.
My Turks don't have a double coat. They shed, but much less than a Maine Coon. Only require a combing once a week.
I used to have dogs as pets, but when I came here to where I am now for work, I started feeding feral and stray cats, then also began rescuing and rehoming kittens/cats. When I first decided to keep a cat of my own from one of the felines I plucked off the street, people kept telling me that my Bourbon looked like a maine coon. Even when i brought her to the vet he said she has a mix of a coon in her. Not just one vet, but two, at separate clinics. I did not know that breed before, but when I checked it out it fascinated me and somehow made me feel good. I hit a jackpot, I told myself.

So yeah, maybe its because some people like to know what kind of cat they are dealing with, to know more of their character and flaws, how to care for them, their health, etc. It's easier with dogs to know the breed right away, but with cats it is much more complicated. Some people probably are just more curious also than others. :)

Not long ago, I have also accepted the fact that my Bourbon is just a regular long-haired domestic cat whom I love so dearly with all my heart. ;)

But I do wish I'd have a purebreed Maine Coon one day. :redheartpump::redheartpump:
Sure you can have a Maine Coon. All it takes is money. ! I've had 4 Maine Coons in the past. 3 were Show alters, 1 was a pet quality. The 3 neutered males had great personalities, The 1 Spayed female didn't. I switched breeds because grooming maintenance is easier with Turkish Van's, plus they shed less.
 

Flybynight

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Keep in mind all of these cats whether a 'breed' mainly naturally occurring like Maine Coons or man made like Tonkinese are all domestic cats. They are not wild cats or breeds apart. Aside from man made breeds that incorporate wild ancestors such as Bengals. They come from the domestic cat population. So of course they will have similarities to other cats.

They can and do mix with other cats. Most similar looking cats in shelters are not full pedigree cats but more often mixes. Cats, including Maine Coons can and do have kittens with other cats, whether from a careless owner or letting cats roam.

I think sometimes owners of pedigree cats like to think their cats come from Mars and are not related to other cats.
The modern trend of more extreme looks to certain breeds goes with the trend to differentiate certain breeds by making them look more different. Hence, the more and more winged ears of Oriental Cats and more angular Maine Coon faces and squished to the point of unhealthy Persian faces.
 
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vansX2

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Should a friend cost you big bucks?
I guess it depends how important that friend is too you. Some of my previous Maine Coons cost me less than others. The kittens at 3 months were always more costly. My current Carmel/White Turkish Van (Jackpot)was twice the price of my Black/White Turkish Van (Miles). Turkish Van's overall command a higher price as they are rarer than Maine Coons.
 
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Maurey

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Sometimes I think this site needs a Wiki on breeds put into this subforum. It would help educate people before they post what constitutes a purebreed from a domestic cat and probably avoid a lot of misunderstandings before they occur.

Some people genuinely are coming into the cat fancy without much knowledge of cats, their behaviors or how to distinguish a breed let alone the standards of the breed. They also sometimes aren't aware cats are not like dogs in their history of being domesticated and so their expectations are shattered when they find out their cat is a domestic.

There are members on TCS who are very knowledgeable because they are breeders or from owning purebred cats and can easily ascertain differences between domestic look-a-likes and a purebeed. Unfortunately, some don't want to hear they didn't luck out and discover something "special" at their local rescue. I myself have a rescued domestic long hair and have purchased a purebreed Maine Coon. they look nothing like each other in type other than being cats. Different physical structure, different coat types, etc. I have little trouble knowing an MC when I see one having educated myself and from living with one.

While it is possible to find a purebreed via a rescue or shelter (I myself, nearly adopted a purebreed Ragdoll some years ago which I knew was legit; I asked to see the the breeder paperwork) but that is not the norm. Most purebreed cats should be returned to their breeder before being put up for adoption because there are legalities involved in the contracts signed between owner/breeder. Some owners don't want to bother and so, they wind up in the rescue/shelter circuit. Or worse, if they are not spayed/neutered wind up breeding them. But it is a rarity for this to occur. And last, from what I've seen most rescues that "specialize" in specific breeds have domestic cats that resemble a breed - not, the breed they claim to rescue. This further leads to people not being able to recognize a properly bred cat because they are just seeing the ones that are claimed to be the breed.

Sometimes, a the look-a-like does indeed resemble a particular breed so well that the possibility does seem quite strong that there is at least some minimal ancestry of a purebreed. But more than not, there is no specific breed appearance to the one the person thinks it is.

Having certain traits be they in appearance or personality does not guarantee breed. Many personality traits can be easily found in any purebreed cat that was properly raised and socialized. Even domestics can have those traits when raised well.

One last thing that really bothers me is those that are against purebreed cats. They are a minute percentage of cats in the world. Most people that have said nasty things to me about buying an MC, readily and happily follow famous purebreed cats on social media. I will never figure that out!
This section of a site has a sticky that says most cats are domestics. I don’t think most people read them. The site also has a lot of “is your cat a ____” articles, which doesn’t help things. I imagine it helps get clicks, which in turn funds the forums, though, which is fair enough.

I can easily get to every part of her I need to, other than her belly. That, she has to put up with me cradling her like a baby to do. She tolerates it, barely, but
You may find it easier to brush her belly while she’s standing up, by lifting up and moving her legs to give you access to the belly fur in that section. It’s how I was taught to do it, and how my cats prefer it. Even Jum, who I brush while she’s in my lap, so she can hide by shoving her head in my elbow, prefers the arrangement, even though she loves sleeping belly up, and even belly pets.

Is she currently being bathed? If not, she may be prone to matting because her coat is either too greasy, or too dry. With the latter, you may want to consider a light spray conditioner marketed for cats; may also be sold as detangling or anti static spray. Should help hydrate her skin as you brush it through the coat, and prevent winter static.
Neither of mine tangle for around 2 months after a bath. Even then, they don’t really mat. Jum used to get small ones when I got super busy at work, but she’s grown out of it, from what I can tell. She sometimes gets tangles in her armpits and lower belly, but only if I’ve not had time for a proper brush in way too long (like 2 weeks lol) which isn’t a common thing, thankfully.


Should a friend cost you big bucks?
You’re not paying for the friend. You’re paying for all the care that went into setting them up for the best life possible from before they were even born. Basically paying for their housing lol. Shelter cat costs are either paid for by the government, or donations, not adoption fees.

It’s not cheap to do all the required testing (which isn’t always just a relatively easy and chap swab DNA test, which is still around 40-50$ per test, with many breeds needing 2 or more), nor is it cheap to feed, house, and vet a pregnant and nursing mother, as well as ravenous kittens — kittens get extremely expensive to feed after 8 weeks, once they start to wean, which is why a lot of shelters and poor breeders rehome them too early. If you’re buying from an ethical breeder, the cost of kittens pretty much just covers the cost of care.
 
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Meowmee

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It Baffles me why so many are wondering what breed their cats resemble. Had they done research themselves on Cat breeds they wouldn't have to ask. If they are happy with their domestic non pedigree cat why worry about what it resembles.
If you read the posts many have done research and or were told the cat was a breed, they are coming here to ask others their opinion since they are not sure. In addition, the title of the forum is not “what breed is my cat” but what does my cat look like. People enjoy seeing if kitty could be a look alike, most know their cat is not a pb cat. If you are familiar at all with any breeds and traits you will recognize those features in a non pedigreed cat. It is fun to discuss it.
 

Meowmee

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Should a friend cost you big bucks?
I have spent way more on my rescued kitties from outside than on my one pb baby when I got him. They initially need a lot of care mostly due to being dumped outside and living the hard life etc. Not to mention all the work of helping them to recover, and become a house cat again if they were to start with. Also some of my shelter babies needed lots of care and rehabilitation etc. too.
 

sivyaleah

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Maurey Maurey I also use the technique of her standing on hind legs, which helps too, thanks for writing this so others will know about it too. A few quick swipes of the comb and we're done. Or I wait until she's in a deeper sleep, and catch the belly that way. Like your Juno she LOVES belly pets so if she's good and sleepy she just thinks I'm stroking her with my hand.

She does not get bathed unfortunately and I know she could use it. I've been looking for a professional groomer for years but there are none by me, not even mobile grooming. It surprises me because I don't live in a remote area. The only place that does cats is one of those big box stores where all the other cats/dogs are out in the open at the same time she'd be there and it's only one person qualified to groom cats. The atmosphere I think would freak her out entirely. I may take a chance when the weather warms up of doing it myself. I have bathed and even blow dried our other cats with little fuss from them so it isn't like I don't know how. Wrangling her can be challenging but I think if my husband helps keep her in the sink (we have a very deep kitchen one with a pull down spray) we may have half a chance of getting the job accomplished!

I do wish I had gotten her used to it when she was tiny. I really had no idea how her coat would change over time and when she was younger she never matted. There was a time where I had to dose her with gabapentin to groom her properly but those days, at least, are far behind us. It's my one big kitten-raising regret. I certainly will not make that mistake the next time around!
 

kashmir64

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I've had cats all my life and never gave a second thought about the breeding. Until I got Samai (profile pic.)
What I did know was that her and her sisters were found in a bowl on the side of the highway at the canyon when they were 10 days old. I got them to foster within an hour of them being found and adopted two. I wanted to know why someone would dump 3 perfect kittens when the shelter wasn't too far away.
Thanks to this site, I found out that she looks and acts similar to a Siberian. What I found from research (this site got me going) was that there was a Siberian breeder within 5 miles of the area where they were found.
Is she part Siberian...likely not, but she could be. She is technically a DLH, but it was fun and interesting to learn what traits and looks she has in common with what breed.
The main thing I know is that no animal has to be a purebred to have value. But like doing your own genealogy, it's fun and interesting.
 

Meowmee

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Keep in mind all of these cats whether a 'breed' mainly naturally occurring like Maine Coons or man made like Tonkinese are all domestic cats. They are not wild cats or breeds apart. Aside from man made breeds that incorporate wild ancestors such as Bengals. They come from the domestic cat population. So of course they will have similarities to other cats.

They can and do mix with other cats. Most similar looking cats in shelters are not full pedigree cats but more often mixes. Cats, including Maine Coons can and do have kittens with other cats, whether from a careless owner or letting cats roam.

I think sometimes owners of pedigree cats like to think their cats come from Mars and are not related to other cats.
The modern trend of more extreme looks to certain breeds goes with the trend to differentiate certain breeds by making them look more different. Hence, the more and more winged ears of Oriental Cats and more angular Maine Coon faces and squished to the point of unhealthy Persian faces.
All true, because a cat does not have a pedigree, documentation etc. does not mean they do not have any breed ancestry whether it is distant or not to x breed(s). Many breeds I have researched were developed from non pedigree domestic cats often living naturally in the area such as the famous Josephine who started the rag dolls. NFC and Siberian forest cats were living naturally in those areas before they were developed into a breed and ultimately all domestic cats have a similar ancestry. It is interesting to look at non pedigree cats and see what history could be there.

What I find odd is how some try to say the way x breed looked traditionally is no longer representative of the breed because the standard has changed often when moving to extremes. Siamese cats for example have 3 different head/ body types accepted into the breed.
 
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Willowy

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You’re not paying for the friend. You’re paying for all the care that went into setting them up for the best life possible from before they were even born. Basically paying for their housing lol. . .
It’s not cheap to do all the required testing (which isn’t always just a relatively easy and chap swab DNA test, which is still around 40-50$ per test, with many breeds needing 2 or more), nor is it cheap to feed, house, and vet a pregnant and nursing mother, as well as ravenous kittens — kittens get extremely expensive to feed after 8 weeks, once they start to wean, which is why a lot of shelters and poor breeders rehome them too early. If you’re buying from an ethical breeder, the cost of kittens pretty much just covers the cost of care.
I don't know if I buy that. If I take a stray pregnant cat off the street and raise her litter of kittens, I'll spend maybe $300-$400 each, if I have them spayed/neutered. And we can say that testing maybe adds $100 or $200 per kitten. And I know vet care costs more in other places so we can say double that might be reasonable. But when the ethical breeders are charging $3000 per kitten. . .yeah, I'm pretty sure they're making money on the deal.
All true, because a cat does not have a pedigree, documentation etc. does not mean they do not have any breed ancestry whether it is distant or not to x breed. Many breeds I have researched were developed from non pedigree domestic cats often living naturally in the area such as the famous Josephine who started the ragdolls.
That's an interesting discussion. Are the big shaggy farm cats from the Northeast part of the US Maine Coons? Is a bobtailed street cat in Japan a Japanese Bobtail? Or do only pedigreed cats count? Hmm, I'm not even sure, lol.
 

Maurey

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All true, because a cat does not have a pedigree, documentation etc. does not mean they do not have any breed ancestry whether it is distant or not to x breed. Many breeds I have researched were developed from non pedigree domestic cats often living naturally in the area such as the famous Josephine who started the ragdolls.
Josephine hasn’t been representative of the ragdoll breed for pretty much as long as it’s been accepted. Most of the looks (as well as the flop) came from the Birman with contribution from other pedigrees.


What I find odd is how some try to say the way x breed looked traditionally is no longer representative of the breed because the standard has changed often when moving to extremes. Siamese cats for example have 3 different head/ body types accepted into the breed.
Breeders should breed to standard, or work to create a new breed with the standard they prefer, if it’s different enough to existing standard. Siamese have one accepted head shape, the wedge, with mild variations of overall looks depending on registry (see GCCF vs TICA). Anything else should be Thai cat, otherwise the breeder is just producing pet standard Siamese. Same thing with Persians. Good breeders should either breed to the standard, or breed Original Longhairs (Chinchilla Longhair in SACC), and work towards their acceptance in TICA and CFA; they’re currently bred and shown with WCF and SACC.
 
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Maurey

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I don't know if I buy that. If I take a stray pregnant cat off the street and raise her litter of kittens, I'll spend maybe $300-$400 each, if I have them spayed/neutered. And we can say that testing maybe adds $100 or $200 per kitten. And I know vet care costs more in other places so we can say double that. But when the ethical breeders are charging $3000 per kitten. . .yeah, I'm pretty sure they're making money on the deal
You’re not taking into account other things that the breeders pay for, like the breeding cats, to begin with, the insane amount of food to feed a litter (especially if they don’t feed kibble), vet bills in case something goes wrong with the pregnancy. With some breeds, you also have yearly to bi-yearly testing costs, like HCM, and one time testing costs that are non-genetic, like HD. Plus, some breeders will do yearly testing for parasites and infections on all their cats.

Also, not sure where you’re getting $3k from. Average for non-rare breeds was between 1.5 and 2k or so (last I checked, perhaps the prices have gone crazy with the pandemic, since vets and food are both more expensive), with it going a bit higher only in really expensive areas. Would also like to note that if ethical breeders charged significantly less than market average, the risk of someone buying a kitten to resell for a profit increases. This exact thing happened in the UK with both cats and dogs over the quarantine, sadly.


That's an interesting discussion. Are the big shaggy farm cats from the NorthEast part of the US "Maine Coons"? Is a bobtailed street cat in Japan a Japanese Bobtail? Or do only pedigreed cats count? Hmm, I'm not even sure, lol.
Breed implies generations of selective breeding by people. There’s a difference between resembling (or even being related to) landrace cats that a breed was developed from and being that breed 🙂
 

Meowmee

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Josephine hasn’t been representative of the ragdoll breed for pretty much as long as it’s been accepted. Most of the looks (as well as the flop) came from the Birman.



Breeders should breed to standard, or work to create a new breed with the standard they prefer, if it’s different enough to existing standard. Siamese have one accepted head shape, the wedge, with mild variations of overall looks depending on registry (see GCCF vs TICA). Anything else should be Thai cat, otherwise the breeder is just producing pet standard Siamese. Same thing with Persians. Good breeders should either breed to the standard, or breed Original Longhairs, and work towards their acceptance in TICA and CFA; they’re currently bred and shown with WCF and SACC.
I am refering to ancestry here and “ how the breeds were developed” re Josephine, not to how long ago it happened. Her input was equally important imo to the breed as the cp cats she was bred with. As far as I can figure out the cp cats she was bred with were also generic cats, non pedigree.

As for siamese, my Quinn is a pedigree registered as siamese and he is not a wedge, so that is not accurate. He is not registered as a thai cat.
I disagree with breeding to a standard that is known to cause health issues I would assume most do. Also saying the traditional looking cat is no longer the breed etc is just weird 😹
 

kashmir64

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The thing is, when you get a cat/kitten from the shelter, you are unsure, but they could have a breed. Years ago, we adopted a cute kitten who we suspected was a Mau. Without papers, he was just a DSH though.
Turns out that a Mau breeder's male got out and mated with a stray. He captured and brought in the female. While waiting to be spayed the shelter found out she was pregnant. Didn't have time to terminate as her spay was set for a few months away. She gave birth and one of the kittens was adopted by us. So he was half Mau.
Unfortunately, most shelters don't know the history of the cats they adopt. But I suspect some have a similar history.
 

Meowmee

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I don't know if I buy that. If I take a stray pregnant cat off the street and raise her litter of kittens, I'll spend maybe $300-$400 each, if I have them spayed/neutered. And we can say that testing maybe adds $100 or $200 per kitten. And I know vet care costs more in other places so we can say double that might be reasonable. But when the ethical breeders are charging $3000 per kitten. . .yeah, I'm pretty sure they're making money on the deal.

That's an interesting discussion. Are the big shaggy farm cats from the Northeast part of the US Maine Coons? Is a bobtailed street cat in Japan a Japanese Bobtail? Or do only pedigreed cats count? Hmm, I'm not even sure, lol.
I think my point was there is a history here in how these breeds developed, they did not pop out of thin air, and many were developed from cats living in the area and or free roaming non pedigree cats, so it is not surprising at all that non pedigree cats can look like and have similarities to pedigree cats. They have beautiful mixes of looks as well. I am not trying to say the cats that resemble them are pedigree, obviously the terms for that is very specific. I am pointing out as most logical people will acknowledge there is a common history. And many people who love cats will recognize looks similar to a breed in their area or a well known breed and or research it and be curious.
 

Maurey

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As far as I can figure out the cp cats she was bred
No, from what is known, she was most likely bred to Birmans and potentially Burmese (though I’m skeptical). I fail to see how her contributions matter to the breed — ragdolls and ragamuffins have no resemblance to her. It’s just a nice story at this point — Ragdolls most likely got their temperament from the Birman cat.


As for siamese, my Quinn is a pedigree registered as siamese and he is not a wedge, so that is not accurate. He is not registered as a thai cat.
Yes. He’s a pet class Siamese, nothing wrong with that. Just questioning the breeder. There is absolutely no reason to purposefully breed pet class Siamese over Thai cats, especially when Thai cats have higher genetic diversity and less health issues. Siamese and orientals are generally fairly sickly as a breed, regardless of head shape, as they share a gene pool. Thai’s reintroduced new blood byway of outcrossing to pointed DSH imported from Thailand when the breed was established.


I disagree with breeding to a standard that is known to cause health issues I would assume most do. Also saying the traditional looking cat is no longer the breed etc is just weird 😹
I never said that they weren’t the breed. I said they were pet class because they’re not bred up to breed standard. Also, Persians that are ethically bred to standard, without excessively exaggerating features are prone to less issues due to their head shape than the “doll faced” variety. The latter are sadly prone to issues like crooked jaws.
 
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sivyaleah

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W Willowy and anyone else interested, this link is to the breeder I was on a wait list for my 2nd Maine Coon. It is extremely informative on why purebreed cats are so expensive (FYI, I only paid $1200 for my first girl, registered but not spayed yet). At the end of the page is the "Expenses Incurred" chart. It details everything that goes into raising a well bred cat and the associated costs.

There's also a bunch of videos, well worth watching for the sake of cuteness LOL. Their entire site is full of great info, and they were always transparent of things happening at the cattery, both the good and the bad. Lots more bad than one would think can happen.

Unfortunately, this breeder has ceased breeding as of the end of 2021 - there is no wait list anymore; the site has not been updated yet.

My turn to pick a kitten finally came up after over a 2 year wait list a few months ago. I declined due to the pandemic and how complicated it might have been to coordinate getting a kitten to us right now. I figured another few months to wait wouldn't matter. Sadly wrong. I'm happy for the breeder; she had good reasons to decide to halt her breeding (losing her "Heart" cat was the final straw in a few years of heartache too long to mention) but sad I won't get a chance to enjoy one of her well raised and gorgeous babies.

KITTENS | MetatronEyes Maine Coons
 

Meowmee

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No, from what is known, she was most likely bred to Birmans and potentially Burmese. I fail to see how her contributions matter to the breed — ragdolls and ragamuffins have no resemblance to her. It’s just a nice story at this point — Ragdolls most likely got their temperament from the Birman cat.



No, from what is known, she was most likely bred to Birmans and potentially Burmese (though I’m skeptical). I fail to see how her contributions matter to the breed — ragdolls and ragamuffins have no resemblance to her. It’s just a nice story at this point — Ragdolls most likely got their temperament from the Birman cat.



Yes. He’s a pet class Siamese, nothing wrong with that. Just questioning the breeder. There is absolutely no reason to purposefully breed pet class Siamese over Thai cats, especially when Thai cats have higher genetic diversity and less health issues. Siamese and orientals are generally fairly sickly as a breed, regardless of head shape, as they share a gene pool. Thai’s reintroduced new blood byway of outcrossing to pointed DSH imported from Thailand when the breed was established.




I never said that they weren’t the breed. I said they were pet class because they’re not bred up to breed standard. Also, Persians that are ethically bred to standard, without excessively exaggerating features are prone to less issues due to their head shape than the “doll faced” variety. The latter are sadly prone to issues like crooked jaws.

My reply here because I wrote one and came back, changed it and it was botched:
There would be no ragdolls without her and the original breeder though. I think her contribution was important albeit many years ago. Again my point was the history that was involved in starting various breeds, many started from non pedigree cats and are from what I understand are still sometimes crossbred with them to avoid health issues.

Quinn’s breeder is the real deal, breeding siamese cats for over half a century, is part of one of the associations and I am sure she knows more about breeding these kitties and their qualities than anyone here. He looks very similar to the original siamese cats brought to the West. He is not an extreme wedge which sadly is known to have caused some serious problems so it is perplexing why the moderate wedge which led to it would be deemed the new and maybe only acceptable standard by some associations. Actually the moderate wedge already looks pretty extreme to me. I love them all though. The cat has no say in how it was created.

I think the peke face is sadly known to have caused more serious health problems than the traditional face. What it has become is very extreme. I will research the crooked jaw as several here have mentioned that.
A random sampling of people’s likes in terms of traditional vs new sometimes extreme standards in cats shows me that many seem prefer the traditional looks over the newer looks. Not scientific for actual data.
 
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