Newly introduced cats: attack or rough play incident?

[cat nap]

I had taken the weekend off from any face-to-face visits, but let them have two visits today since their gate playing was going well. The first one was interesting - Freddie came into her space and then immediately mounted her. It was very slow motion almost, and she totally submitted to him for a moment. I also noticed that at one point he released his bite on her neck, and started licking her head? Then she escaped under the bed, came out again, and hissed at him from her cat tree before I ended the meeting. She had her ears back and things felt tense so I felt it might be best to end it there. What was cool to see though, was that she took a "higher" stance than him on her cat tree.

I think you did great there.
And yes, great to see that Baguette decided to take the 'higher ground' this time.

As long as they both always have...'escape routes'...be they higher up on chairs, boxes, side tables...or like you mentioned before...through tunnels (though that tunnel sounds fun...like the perfect ambush site.)...and under furniture, too,...then it should be okay...when they are playing fast and rough.

When one cat lets the other escape...that is good to see.
Very fast..their speed is amazing...but awesome to get a glimpse of.

(I don't actually allow my male cat to mount my female cat..., even though mine were both neutered and spayed at 5.5 months, Tripp did mount Tepaul, and bite her on the neck...probably at age two...and then again at age three or four...and so I would just grab a towel, cover him with it, and take him off.
Even if it's a dominance game, or instinct, Tepaul did not like it.)

(I do tend to 'referee' in instances like this...since I think that it will just lead to more annoyance, and possible fighting, biting, and loud vocalizations by Tepaul.
Granted, I don't 'referee all the time'...because that would be impossible...so yes, there are also times when they have gotten into more loud tussles and runs...where I didn't even see what happened.)

(Strangely, though, my two cats also had this weird type of 'grabbing by the bottom of the neck'...where they would mutually bite each other, ...and then also lick, lick, lick...near the jugular neck area.
The reason I say it looks weird to me...is because I cannot figure out if one cat is trying to be 'dominant' over the other cat...by the biting, holding, and then licking...to get their own saliva scent all over the other...or are they doing some sort of mutual grooming.
It also looks like a 'practice to kill the prey by the neck bite'...and they have both done it to each other...so it leaves me thinking..."hmm".)

(To me, ...it just looks like a dominance display...but I really don't know.)
Tepaul, has always been more of the 'lick and groom'...but sometimes she looks to be a little bit too insistent about it...so I also separate her from Tripp...if she is biting and holding his neck area, and then licking it...a little too long.
I have to treat both fairly...and don't want Tripp thinking...that everything Tepaul does is okay, either.)

Second meeting I invited her into the living room, then brought Freddie in from the bathroom where I had temporarily put him. He was pretty good and left her alone for the most part. She ended up hiding under the couch as usual, and growled at any attempts Freddie made to play with her. He bopped her a few times trying to engage in play, but she was totally not having it. She got very stiff and her body didn't move a muscle, except for her eyes which darted around to follow his movements. Even when he was busy playing with a toy, she didn't budge or relax from her "ready" state. Freddie was being mostly very good and I just ended the meeting after a while when it didn't seem like she was going to loosen up at all.

I agree with Xena44...you really have a great handle on how your cats are doing,...and really good instincts.
Ending the face to face meetings...before anything majorly aggressive happens....is always better...because it builds a solid foundation for the next meeting.
You're building up their Trust..in one another...by ending ...on a Positive.

She's very submissive to him still, but she definitely tells him to back off at times, which he's becoming more receptive to. But overall she still reacts very triggered when face-to-face with him. My biggest question right now is if I should let them having longer interactions, and let her "tell" him off more...? I guess I'm getting good results with all-day gate visuals and short meetings. But I'm starting to feel like they are too short maybe? Just wonder if more time is needed when they are face-to-face to sort stuff out. But I also don't want their relationship to become worsened, if it ends every time in a struggle.

That is an excellent question...about allowing them longer interactions.

I had to go back and look at how long you were actually at these cat intros...and really...I think it's only going to be 3 weeks...tomorrow,...if you don't count the first week...or if you count the 'behind the gate visuals'...then it might even be less.
Also, because you needed to wait, a while, ..until Baguette's pheromones were different after spaying, too.

But to get back to your question...I honestly think...that the pace that you are going is very helpful...since it allows Baguette and Freddie to constantly adjust to each other.
And allowing Baguette to do it at a slower manner.
The problem of having face to face meetings...that are too long...or that allow one of the cats...to get too annoyed...is the risk...of losing a lot of the progress...or built up 'good feelings'...between the cats.

I still think that Freddie should be on a harness, at these face to face meetings...and if you could control his trying to 'get to her, all the time'...to a point where he doesn't always want to...or where he seems to be able to focus on something else...quickly...then that would be further progress.

It really sounds like Freddie is learning a lot...and also...slowly changing the ways...in which he interacts with Baguette...even if he's learning to be Receptive, and still learning Baguette's cues,...like you had mentioned,...that is such a huge step...in the two cats being able to share their space together...and trust each other.
Freddie being more receptive sounds excellent.

I'm curious if in the cat introduction process, is there any point at which my intervention in their interactions could start doing more harm than good? I feel like I tend to end their meetings when I sense tension, or when a tussle happens. But I'm wondering, should I be giving them more opportunity to work things out, even if it seems "scary" to me? For example, should I be creating more opportunity to let Baguette "teach" Freddie her boundaries even if it is a bit messy getting there? I think I also still struggle to read aggressive play from a real fight...which is the original topic of this thread haha I just tend to break up and separate them every time they have a "dust up," but maybe it's not as bad as I think...? I worry about Baguette getting bullied, but maybe I should let it play out a bit more?

Oh, okay...I think I see what you are saying.
You're thinking...that it might be better to use Baguette to "teach" Freddie...of what she likes and does not like.
And that too much human intervention...might not allow the cats to 'work out their relationship' issues.
And that is why you're thinking longer meetings would be better.
To give them more time to play, and interact...and work out their differences.

This is another great question...and I guess it would have different answers...depending on who you ask.
Some might say..."yes, let the cats work out their own issues...since they will have to anyway...and too much human involvement would just be getting in the way."
The problem there, is ...that it might set up the perfect opportunity for an 'actual cat fight'...where both cats didn't have enough time to study each other...and their "play level",..rises dramatically, and very intensely...and goes from playing,... to being hurt, and then fighting...in retaliation...for the 'being hurt' in the first place.

I guess 'aggressive play'...does actually look like a real fight...and can easily become a somewhat hurtful fight.
(But 'aggressive play'...is still totally different than a 'real cat fight'...where the cats are trying to run each other out from their territory. And not let up...until the other one is gone.)

In cat to cat introductions...we also want that 'aggressive play' to lessen and diminish...to a point where both cats understand ...what the other cat wants...and how to respond...to the other cat's actions. (without having to resort to always being on the defensive, or having to constantly be 'on guard', always vigilant, and on high alert, too.)

I don't think that...at this point in time...your interventions could be doing more harm than good.
Since you are trying to lessen each cat's stress levels...to a point where they can easily manage them...and not feel constant on edge.

(If in the future, you were constantly separating them, whenever you noticed a bit of rough play...then yes...that might be confusing to the cats...but that's not what you are doing, right now,...I don't think.)
You're actually just showing both cats...that certain Play is acceptable...and if it's too rough...then it breaks your 'house rules'.
I think your cats will learn to respect that.

**You could try to see where the cats go after a 'dust up'...and if they easily come back quickly from that type of 'meeting'...then you'd know that it was not as bad for them...as it looked.
Allowing them to go to their separate spaces...and then come back, eventually,...will help you to know how each interaction went.
But it's still kind of hard to do this, now,...so early in the cat intros...since they are still adjusting.

I think you’re probably reading them better than you think. It’s just stressful anticipating what possibly could happen when wanting to prevent a real fight, so I understand preemptive action. I think you’re doing very well.

I totally agree with Xena44, on this.
I think you are reading both cats extremely well...and it's very hard to do...while you are in the midst of the actual action...and also trying to decide when to end the meetings on a Positive.

If you look back, in this thread, ...on the progress you have already made...then I think it is huge.
(It's probably just hard to notice the progress...because you are in the middle of it.
And mostly, too, because we humans tend to get discouraged by all the negative interactions that happen...and our minds remember those more...than they do all the positive interactions. I have no idea why.)

I really think you and the cats are doing well, too.

 

[heybeanbag]

I think letting their interactions be a little bit longer, even if they seem uncomfortable, and letting their tussles work themselves out as long as they don’t get overboard is a good idea. I think you’re probably reading them better than you think. It’s just stressful anticipating what possibly could happen when wanting to prevent a real fight, so I understand preemptive action. I think you’re doing very well. Your separation job on the gate sounds perfect. and honestly if you get that worried, just break it up. They may pick up on your stress level and that will never help anything. There’s no race here. Take your time and let them work it out slowly.

Thanks Xena44! I will continue the meetings and try to let them be slightly longer but still trust my instincts... Yes it can feel so hard to know "how far" to let things go sometimes!! The stress is real lol. Thanks for the support and the reminder that there's no rush...!

 

[heybeanbag]

Hi cat nap ,
Thanks so much for the reminder that it's only been a few weeks! In my mind, it's been several months But you are so right - not that much time has passed. And everything you said rang true - a lot of progress has been made that I do forget about..! Those biases to remember only the bad are super real...I'm really thankful for you and other members who keep me encouraged and help me keep things in perspective. . It makes me feel more refreshed and hopeful for the coming weeks. It is easy to loose track of the big picture while in the process...you're so right.

I think one reason I get stressed is because I have to go out of town for several days at the end of June...I get worried that they will go stir-crazy in their separate spaces while I'm gone if they aren't yet integrated. Especially Baguette since she's just in the bedroom. I think my friend who has watched Freddie before would be open to even sleeping over and giving the cats lots of attention...but I still need to bring it up with her. The situation just sometimes feels...fragile, which makes me feel anxious about leaving town. It's definitely on my mind and maybe subconsciously makes me want to see things move faster, but I will try to be more mindful about that and just go at their pace. Probably the worst case scenario of rushing the intros (vs. them being still separated and slightly bored/sad while I'm gone is) is far worse . I also work from home so they both get a lot of time with me, and I'm a bit worried they'll get separation anxiety. Maybe I can start to spend time away from home on the weekends throughout June...

I will keep it up with supervised meetings with Freddie on the harness. And I will try to let them interact as long as possible without things going too long, and in a negative direction like you and Xena44 recommend! It's so interesting to me that cats can learn to read each other and adapt their styles to be more accommodating for the other! I think I was worried I was stalling the process, but it sounds like actually things are progressing okay by not letting things escalate too badly. Thanks for reaffirming the stage of progress we are at..!

It is also interesting to hear about making sure the cats have "escape routes". I notice a lot of their meet-n-greets end up under the couch or bed. I hope that Baguette will start taking to higher ground more often, I think that would be good. I think that what's been happening during the tussles is that Freddie approaches playfully, but Baguette reads it as threatening, and then it turns into a semi-aggressive struggle. I think you are right that once they get to know each other's intentions better maybe their reactions to each other will be more aligned? That's cool to know as well that over time, they may learn to respect boundaries that I set, when breaking up or "refereeing" (as you said) certain interactions.

Interesting you mention where they go after a "dust up". One thing I have noticed, is that after a squabble, they tend to both rebound very quickly. With Freddie it doesn't surprise me, but I always am glad to see Baguette come right back out from her hiding place, or be easily lured to the gate to share treat time with Freddie. That must be a good sign

As always, thanks so much for your friendship and advice throughout this whole process! Don't think I could've done it without the help from this community

One quick question - I am bring Baguette to the vet in about a week and a half for a booster shot. I have heard about non-recognition aggression between cat roommates after one of them gets back from the vet. For established cats, I read that you can separate them and do a mini "reintroduction" to get the cat that went to the vet smelling normal again before letting them see the other resident cat. Any advice or guidance on how I can prepare for this, so that it won't set things back?

 

[heybeanbag]

Also, here is a pic I took of Freddie in those tunnels today! You can really see his "mustache"

 

[Xena44]

That is one gorgeous kitty!!!!!! One thing a friend used to do as he had that issue after he brought 1 cat to the vet, was to spray them both with a little Skin So Soft so they both smelled the same. That took care of it for him. My cats just give each other side eye for a minute and avoid each other for a bit. No worries. But I sure as heck wouldn’t bank on that for your pair! Maybe harness up the boy and do another mini-reintroduction. You may even want to leave her in her carrier for a few and let Freddie check her out and see how he is reacting. Don’t stress about the end of June. That’s a ways away! If your friend will stay there, that would be great. Would she be there during the day or does she have to leave for work? Do you leave the gate up and door open when you have to leave? And ooooh ya, an escape route is vital. Not having one would change everything. I think that Baguette recovering very quickly from a dust up is FFFFFFantastic! No damage done and she is ready for more of the Fred! Awesome! She really seems like a sweetheart. He seems like such a boy!

 

[heybeanbag]

That is one gorgeous kitty!!!!!! One thing a friend used to do as he had that issue after he brought 1 cat to the vet, was to spray them both with a little Skin So Soft so they both smelled the same. That took care of it for him. My cats just give each other side eye for a minute and avoid each other for a bit. No worries. But I sure as heck wouldn’t bank on that for your pair! Maybe harness up the boy and do another mini-reintroduction. You may even want to leave her in her carrier for a few and let Freddie check her out and see how he is reacting. Don’t stress about the end of June. That’s a ways away! If your friend will stay there, that would be great. Would she be there during the day or does she have to leave for work? Do you leave the gate up and door open when you have to leave? And ooooh ya, an escape route is vital. Not having one would change everything. I think that Baguette recovering very quickly from a dust up is FFFFFFantastic! No damage done and she is ready for more of the Fred! Awesome! She really seems like a sweetheart. He seems like such a boy!

Ooh how interesting that your friend put the same scent on both of the cats. I wonder if I administer flea treatment to both of them on that day if it would accomplish the same thing. Then they would both smell like flea meds? They're do for their monthly treatment around that time anyway

Do you think I should even let him see her after the vet? Or let her chill out in her room for a few hours before allowing visual/smell access through the gate?

Aw thanks for the reassurance about end of June! If I could wave a magic wand, they'd be best buddies by then and keep each other company (with someone looking after them ofc). We shall see I think my friend might be open to sleeping over. She does go to work during the day...but she is usually off by late afternoon. Hopefully they would just sleep while she's gone. And yes I have been leaving the gate up when I go out to do stuff or run errands - so far so good! I added an extra hook recently to help stabilize it. Hopefully they would be ok >_<

Yes I am glad she recovers quickly! Lately I've been trying really hard not to let Fred touch her during their meetings, so she can start to overcome the idea that he's gonna jump her every time. I hope it helps her build up her confidence around him and I hope he starts to get bored of trying to touch her! lol. Slowly but surely...One good thing is they have been playing paws a lot more through the crack! And yes he is SUCH a boy. He's a very confident, silly, fella. And she is very sweet! Very spunky, loyal, and a bit mischievous

Btw Xena44 I like your avatar! Is that a birthday cake in front of kitty? Btw, did you go through this cat introduction at one point?

 

[Xena44]

It sure is birthday cake! And Icky’s dilated pupils are fixed on that frosting!! (And yes, he got some ) I’ve been extremely lucky when bringing new cats into the fold. But that doesn’t mean that sometimes one of my boys wouldn’t get a wild hair and pounce on an unsuspecting victim, slap the daylights out of them and then take off. My boys can be jerks. They really amuse themselves. But at this time I’m down to just the 2. They were litter mates but I got them about 2 months apart. Intros were a breeze. I’ve not had to go thru what you are but I’ve had a cat or 20 in my day.

Not so sure the flea meds would be a strong enough scent. And they’re made to dissipate pretty quickly.

 

[heybeanbag]

Sigh Freddie and Baguette just got in a fight... Baguette has been more excited to get out of the bedroom lately and slipped past me when I was opening the gate. She ran into the bathroom and Freddie cornered her...I ran to get a blocker but it was too late and there was screaming and fur flying not sure who instigated but I assume it was Freddie. I ended up clapping and then throwing a blanket on him. Poor Baguette!! Both cats seem okay and it doesn’t seem like there’s blood. Amazingly Baguette rebounded super quick and is right back at the gate...it’s so weird they can be so calm and cordial when there’s a gate between them! I’m glad they’re okay, but so scary

 

[cat nap]

Hi cat nap cat nap ,
Thanks so much for the reminder that it's only been a few weeks! In my mind, it's been several months

Yeah, I totally understand that heybeanbag ...Somehow doing any type of animal introductions...be they cat, kitten, puppy, dog,...seems to warp time...in mysterious ways.

(Maybe us humans somehow go into 'cat years'...or something...but then the intros...should be zooming by...and not slowing down time. But yes...one or two weeks seems to feel like one month...during cat intros. It's so true. )

Maybe it's all the 'new-ness'...and excitement...and then we forget that while our animals are adjusting,...we are adjusting, too.
I think I remember being like this...

But you are so right - not that much time has passed. And everything you said rang true - a lot of progress has been made that I do forget about..! Those biases to remember only the bad are super real...I'm really thankful for you and other members who keep me encouraged and help me keep things in perspective. . It makes me feel more refreshed and hopeful for the coming weeks. It is easy to loose track of the big picture while in the process...you're so right.

You're so very welcome.
I've learned a lot, too, from all the different threads I've been on, and from reading others,...that it just makes sense to share the stuff I've learned.

We all here, have a love of cats,...and so it's pretty easy to do the encouragement part, and brainstorm and share all our ideas together.

(Actually, before I joined the Cat Site...I didn't even know that there was a formal cat introduction process...or a cat intro Plan.
That was way back before 2014. I used to make a mess of introducing cats...and caused the cats a lot of stress...which would have been reduced...had I followed an actual Plan. And introducing my puppy to my cats, back in 2012-2013,...took me over nine months...where at one point I told my sister, that I think my cats would probably have to live on the second floor, while the puppy/dog lived on the main floor. It was frustrating, tiring,...and I also forgot to look at all the progress that was being made.
You just cannot see any 'light at the end of the tunnel'...so to speak.)

**So basically, you are ten times ahead of me...in that you knew that there was an actual 'Cat introduction Plan'...and you put it in motion...and are following the Steps. Changing when you have to...and allowing the cats to go...at the slowest adjusting cat's pace.

(I maybe should have mentioned that having done both the 'no plan method'...and the 'cat intro plan'...that the 'cat intro steps'...gets far better results...with trying to cause the least amount of stress on our cats.)

I think one reason I get stressed is because I have to go out of town for several days at the end of June...I get worried that they will go stir-crazy in their separate spaces while I'm gone if they aren't yet integrated. Especially Baguette since she's just in the bedroom. I think my friend who has watched Freddie before would be open to even sleeping over and giving the cats lots of attention...but I still need to bring it up with her. The situation just sometimes feels...fragile, which makes me feel anxious about leaving town. It's definitely on my mind and maybe subconsciously makes me want to see things move faster, but I will try to be more mindful about that and just go at their pace. Probably the worst case scenario of rushing the intros (vs. them being still separated and slightly bored/sad while I'm gone is) is far worse . I also work from home so they both get a lot of time with me, and I'm a bit worried they'll get separation anxiety. Maybe I can start to spend time away from home on the weekends throughout June...

Honestly, I don't think you have to worry about the end of June...since I think that both cats will be very far along in their integration.
Probably fully integrated by then.
Also, very nice of your friend...to watch both cats. If she can sleep over, then the cats would probably feel more relaxed...but if she cannot...they would still be okay...as long as someone is coming by to feed them, fresh water, clean litter,...and talk to them a bit.

Cats pretty much sleep a lot...and yes, they may miss their cat guardians...and need time to get used to the new human...but some cats are very okay...with new humans coming over.

 

[cat nap]

Sigh Freddie and Baguette just got in a fight... Baguette has been more excited to get out of the bedroom lately and slipped past me when I was opening the gate. She ran into the bathroom and Freddie cornered her...I ran to get a blocker but it was too late and there was screaming and fur flying not sure who instigated but I assume it was Freddie. I ended up clapping and then throwing a blanket on him. Poor Baguette!! Both cats seem okay and it doesn’t seem like there’s blood. Amazingly Baguette rebounded super quick and is right back at the gate...it’s so weird they can be so calm and cordial when there’s a gate between them! I’m glad they’re okay, but so scary

This is actually not as bad as it seems.
This will probably...even happen after they are fully integrated.
They will have the odd spats...and one will probably go about Playing a bit too hard.
But as long as they Rebound very quickly...and no huge scratches...or blood...then it's okay.

The loud vocalizations is just their way...of warning the other cat...to back off.
It's true...it does sound scary...but some cats also Play...super loud, too.

Since you mentioned that Baguette is back at the gate...what is she now, doing?
And where is Freddie?
What is he doing?

 

[heybeanbag]

This is actually not as bad as it seems.
This will probably...even happen after they are fully integrated.
They will have the odd spats...and one will probably go about Playing a bit too hard.
But as long as they Rebound very quickly...and no huge scratches...or blood...then it's okay.

The loud vocalizations is just their way...of warning the other cat...to back off.
It's true...it does sound scary...but some cats also Play...super loud, too.

Since you mentioned that Baguette is back at the gate...what is she now, doing?
And where is Freddie?
What is he doing?

Hey cat nap ,
(I will respond to your other posts more thoughtfully later)

Okay, I think you might be right that it wasn't as bad as it seemed based on the rebound responses after and then this morning. It's bewildering to me! Lol.
So the main fight happened in the bathroom and then they ended up running into the living room where Baggie hid under the couch. That's when I was able to throw a blanket on Freddie. I then scooped him up and put him in the bathroom so that Baggie could come back out and back into her room. She looked very frazzled but came out from under the couch and back into her room with treats. She sat briefly under the bed but right at the edge, and I gave her another treat and pet her, checking for any injuries. She seemed fine and perky and I left her to go check on Freddie.

I let him out of the bathroom and he seemed his normal, vocal self. They saw each other through the gate where Baggie now was sitting and seemed fine?? I went into the living room and he followed, and I checked him for injuries as well. He seemed normal and I played with him a bit.

Then I fed them both dinner and they ate close the gate as usual, no problem. Honestly they seemed fine, and Baggie seemed like totally okay? I played with her a bit after dinner as well and she was very into it as usual.

The fight itself scared me a lot though, and I thought, "oh no, this is really going to set things back!" In the fight they were like a singular, rapidly thrashing screaming furball!! I was like: I was so concerned...and Freddie seemed really "primal". Like I didn't even want to put my hands near him before they even made contact. And I found two clumps of hair on the floor, one from each cat.

But the recovery was...so quick it honestly surprised me? I expected Baguette to hide and cower, or at least not hang out by the gate at all after that. Or run away at the sight of Freddie. But alas, no..? And this morning, they have been rambunctiously playing at the gate for about and hour and a half! Like batting each other with paws, rocketing back and forth on their sides etc. Def playful vibes.

Overall...I'm very happy and amazed they are still friends! So maybe it was play after all Before the fight, I noticed that Baguette has even occasionally started to run up to the gate if she hears Freddie there, as if to greet him! And over the last few days, she seems really intent on coming out of the room, she waits at the gate looking at me and giving small begging peeps. She still seemed to still act like that today when I walk by, so even in spite of the fight, it seems like she wants out, even if Mr. Freddie is there and might jump her? I want to give her a medal for being so adaptable and forgiving, lol

 

[cat nap]

Hey cat nap ,
(I will respond to your other posts more thoughtfully later)

Hi heybeanbag ..honestly no need to respond to my earlier posts.
There was nothing 'news worthy' or 'earth shattering' ...that I wrote. Only two or three sentences ...that may have been useful.
I think I underlined those.

When I was writing up my reply...your post came through...and you answered my last post...thoroughly.

The main thing...to notice...is how both cats react...AFTER...any altercations, Play sessions, spats, runs, meetings, etc.

Okay, I think you might be right that it wasn't as bad as it seemed based on the rebound responses after and then this morning. It's bewildering to me! Lol.
So the main fight happened in the bathroom and then they ended up running into the living room where Baggie hid under the couch. That's when I was able to throw a blanket on Freddie. I then scooped him up and put him in the bathroom so that Baggie could come back out and back into her room. She looked very frazzled but came out from under the couch and back into her room with treats. She sat briefly under the bed but right at the edge, and I gave her another treat and pet her, checking for any injuries. She seemed fine and perky and I left her to go check on Freddie.

I let him out of the bathroom and he seemed his normal, vocal self. They saw each other through the gate where Baggie now was sitting and seemed fine?? I went into the living room and he followed, and I checked him for injuries as well. He seemed normal and I played with him a bit.

Then I fed them both dinner and they ate close the gate as usual, no problem. Honestly they seemed fine, and Baggie seemed like totally okay? I played with her a bit after dinner as well and she was very into it as usual.

(Trust me, there is a lot of cat behaviour that is still bewildering ...and always will be...to me, too.
Like why does my cat Tripp always want to be patted and brushed, while I am on TCS ..and typing out replies. lol. He does not do it half as often when I am reading online...but typing...is attractive to him. Then he starts meowing...and I'm not sure if that means 'play time', or 'I'd like a treat', 'follow me'. smh.)

You know what I found interesting, yesterday,...and again today...is that you wrote that the fight happened in the bathroom.
I thought, "that's interesting, I wonder why Baguette chose to run into the bathroom? She would have known, that the bathroom was the place that Freddie was being kept in, his mini base-camp,... while she got transferred outside her room. hmmm. It could be because it was the closest room to run into...or did she actually want to see Freddie. Hard to tell why they choose to run where they do...and also place themselves into corners, and smaller spaces, and such.

Fantastic that you remembered to Play with them individually, afterwards,...to let off more of their adrenaline...and to end the night...on positive feelings.

The fight itself scared me a lot though, and I thought, "oh no, this is really going to set things back!" In the fight they were like a singular, rapidly thrashing screaming furball!! I was like: I was so concerned...and Freddie seemed really "primal". Like I didn't even want to put my hands near him before they even made contact. And I found two clumps of hair on the floor, one from each cat.

But the recovery was...so quick it honestly surprised me? I expected Baguette to hide and cower, or at least not hang out by the gate at all after that. Or run away at the sight of Freddie. But alas, no..? And this morning, they have been rambunctiously playing at the gate for about and hour and a half! Like batting each other with paws, rocketing back and forth on their sides etc. Def playful vibes.

It really sounds like Play.
Okay, it was a bit too rough, at first,...but the fact that they both 'bounced back so quickly'...makes me think...that they both really enjoyed the 'fast and tumble', 'wrestling', 'rapidly thrashing screaming furball'.

Good, though, that you didn't try grabbing Freddie with only your hands...and used the blanket.
Just remember to use the blanket, towel, or anything else...so you don't get accidentally scratched.
He would not mean to scratch you, or bite,...but in the midst of that type of Playing...he would not even notice...and it would be an accident.

Playful vibes are excellent.
If you are getting similar results, as you did in those previous combination videos that you posted,...or even better results,...then you definitely know that both cats are getting more and more used to each other,...and are attempting to Play.
Still learning from each other, too.

Overall...I'm very happy and amazed they are still friends! So maybe it was play after all Before the fight, I noticed that Baguette has even occasionally started to run up to the gate if she hears Freddie there, as if to greet him! And over the last few days, she seems really intent on coming out of the room, she waits at the gate looking at me and giving small begging peeps. She still seemed to still act like that today when I walk by, so even in spite of the fight, it seems like she wants out, even if Mr. Freddie is there and might jump her? I want to give her a medal for being so adaptable and forgiving, lol

I'm starting to think back on your questions about letting both cats have longer times with each other, and the human doing too much to 'stall the progress'...and even though I think you are not doing more harm than good...or stalling it...by allowing the gradual building of Confidence, Trust, Adjustment...I now do wonder...which signs will tell you that both cats are ready...to be freely together.

We always want to look for things like willingness to engage with each other, no fear or minimal fear, feeling safe in their territory, having escape routes, safe places to sleep and rest away from the other cat. Lessening of Eye contact, lessening of full on focusing and less hyper alertness. Relaxed postures. Seemingly uneventful, easily distractible, and relaxed in each other's places, too.

If you could only get Freddie,...to tone it down a bit...and not jump on her, or always want to wrestle...then I think the results would be a bit more even.
But maybe like you had thought before,..that that will only happen when Baguette is the one...teaching Freddie how to Play nicer.
The only problem with this...is greater risk to get hurt...but they could also get hurt...in normal rough play, as well.

Like ears getting scratched. (Tripp does not know how to flatten his ears, or does not bother..so he has gotten many, many scratches and cuts in them.)
I'm not sure...since I still think that what you are doing now...is getting good results, too.

I still think you will have to be the 'referee'...and supervising at times...but not all the time.
Especially if both cats can have a play-fight...run off...hide...and come back together.

(If you can get some videos over the weekend, watch them back,..and look for a willingness from Baguette to attempt to engage with Freddie...and if she is always on the defensive...or offensive...too.
Meaning,...which cat looks like they started the run.
Which cat backs away, but does not go too far....and where their paw positions are...which is hard to tell if watching...since they move too lightning quick. You only notice it, if you watch it in slow speed.)

Oh, one last thing that I forgot to ask...is ...how does Freddie react when he is placed in Baguette's room, behind the gate?
Does he do all the same things ...that he does on the other side?
Is he more lively, and Playful...and constantly running around...or does he ever just sleep and nap in the room?

 

[heybeanbag]

Hi heybeanbag ..honestly no need to respond to my earlier posts.
There was nothing 'news worthy' or 'earth shattering' ...that I wrote. Only two or three sentences ...that may have been useful.
I think I underlined those.

When I was writing up my reply...your post came through...and you answered my last post...thoroughly.

The main thing...to notice...is how both cats react...AFTER...any altercations, Play sessions, spats, runs, meetings, etc.

(Trust me, there is a lot of cat behaviour that is still bewildering ...and always will be...to me, too.
Like why does my cat Tripp always want to be patted and brushed, while I am on TCS ..and typing out replies. lol. He does not do it half as often when I am reading online...but typing...is attractive to him. Then he starts meowing...and I'm not sure if that means 'play time', or 'I'd like a treat', 'follow me'. smh.)

You know what I found interesting, yesterday,...and again today...is that you wrote that the fight happened in the bathroom.
I thought, "that's interesting, I wonder why Baguette chose to run into the bathroom? She would have known, that the bathroom was the place that Freddie was being kept in, his mini base-camp,... while she got transferred outside her room. hmmm. It could be because it was the closest room to run into...or did she actually want to see Freddie. Hard to tell why they choose to run where they do...and also place themselves into corners, and smaller spaces, and such.

Fantastic that you remembered to Play with them individually, afterwards,...to let off more of their adrenaline...and to end the night...on positive feelings.

It really sounds like Play.
Okay, it was a bit too rough, at first,...but the fact that they both 'bounced back so quickly'...makes me think...that they both really enjoyed the 'fast and tumble', 'wrestling', 'rapidly thrashing screaming furball'.

Good, though, that you didn't try grabbing Freddie with only your hands...and used the blanket.
Just remember to use the blanket, towel, or anything else...so you don't get accidentally scratched.
He would not mean to scratch you, or bite,...but in the midst of that type of Playing...he would not even notice...and it would be an accident.

Playful vibes are excellent.
If you are getting similar results, as you did in those previous combination videos that you posted,...or even better results,...then you definitely know that both cats are getting more and more used to each other,...and are attempting to Play.
Still learning from each other, too.

I'm starting to think back on your questions about letting both cats have longer times with each other, and the human doing too much to 'stall the progress'...and even though I think you are not doing more harm than good...or stalling it...by allowing the gradual building of Confidence, Trust, Adjustment...I now do wonder...which signs will tell you that both cats are ready...to be freely together.

We always want to look for things like willingness to engage with each other, no fear or minimal fear, feeling safe in their territory, having escape routes, safe places to sleep and rest away from the other cat. Lessening of Eye contact, lessening of full on focusing and less hyper alertness. Relaxed postures. Seemingly uneventful, easily distractible, and relaxed in each other's places, too.

If you could only get Freddie,...to tone it down a bit...and not jump on her, or always want to wrestle...then I think the results would be a bit more even.
But maybe like you had thought before,..that that will only happen when Baguette is the one...teaching Freddie how to Play nicer.
The only problem with this...is greater risk to get hurt...but they could also get hurt...in normal rough play, as well.

Like ears getting scratched. (Tripp does not know how to flatten his ears, or does not bother..so he has gotten many, many scratches and cuts in them.)
I'm not sure...since I still think that what you are doing now...is getting good results, too.

I still think you will have to be the 'referee'...and supervising at times...but not all the time.
Especially if both cats can have a play-fight...run off...hide...and come back together.

(If you can get some videos over the weekend, watch them back,..and look for a willingness from Baguette to attempt to engage with Freddie...and if she is always on the defensive...or offensive...too.
Meaning,...which cat looks like they started the run.
Which cat backs away, but does not go too far....and where their paw positions are...which is hard to tell if watching...since they move too lightning quick. You only notice it, if you watch it in slow speed.)

Oh, one last thing that I forgot to ask...is ...how does Freddie react when he is placed in Baguette's room, behind the gate?
Does he do all the same things ...that he does on the other side?
Is he more lively, and Playful...and constantly running around...or does he ever just sleep and nap in the room?

Thanks cat nap !
I think Baguette and Freddie ran into the bathroom since it's right next to the gate entrance...but it is interesting that she didn't instead choose to run the opposite way down the hall into the living room (until later). Maybe she felt blocked by me since I was standing in that direction and the hallway is narrow. I can't remember if Freddie chased her in there or if she ran in there, and he pursued. It all happened so fast! But yeah, interesting she would make that choice

Dang, I still can't believe it was play!!! It seemed so vicious, but I am clearly still learning about the spectrum of playing and fighting. I've only really ever had single cats throughout my life so learning about the dynamic between two is a process!!

I feel like when they are separated by the gate, I can definitely read that they are acting playful. But face-to-face they bring a whole different caliber to their play... When they play at the gate, I have noticed Baguette initiate some bopping and slapping...but I have not seen her initiate anything when they have meetings on the leash face-to-face. It's like she acts very fearful as soon as the gate is not there. But when the gate IS there, Freddie can come right up to her and bop HER in the face and she doesn't even budge Sometimes with Freddie, I sit in the living room and start his play sessions with a laser pointer and get him to sprint up and down the hall. Even then, if she is observing right behind the gate (which is right on the hall), she doesn't even flinch as he is literally barreling towards her at full speed. I supposed there's a lot of psychological safety for her behind the gate! I will def try to get some video footage soon and review it though.

Can you explain what you mean by paw positions, and what to look for there? Like who is throwing swipes?

Also, last night's encounter, Freddie was obviously not harnessed...do you think I should still keep him harnessed but let him touch her more? Or just allow them to have more "organic" interactions off leash?

Interesting question about Freddie when in Baguette's room - long story short, he's totally fine in there, but only if I'm in there with him.
I only really put him in there at bedtime with me on nights that we siteswap, which is about every other night. He pretty much just goes to sleep, maybe scratches the post a bit.

However, he HATES being left in there alone without me. He will whine and cry if he is locked in there, and Baguette and I are in the living room. Same goes for when I put him in the bathroom. Also true for when I go into the bathroom alone and lock the door I think it's more of a personality thing - he hates being left out! Although on nights when he sleeps out in the living room, he behaves pretty well. Some nights he's better than others about crying at the door. And I just wear earplugs to bed and ignore it.

But yesterday afternoon I actually wanted to give Baguette some time in the living room during the day, so I tried putting him in there (with the gate up, door open). I hadn't tried that in a while. He tried very hard to squeeze through the cracks of the gate and was struggling pretty hard to do so. He also whined and cried a lot. Then, he actually started to CLIMB up the gate, which neither cat has tried to do. At that point I just shut the whole door on him to give Baguette a few more mins in the living room. Do you think I should work on making him more comfy in her room?

 

[Xena44]

Hey cat nap ,
(I will respond to your other posts more thoughtfully later)

Okay, I think you might be right that it wasn't as bad as it seemed based on the rebound responses after and then this morning. It's bewildering to me! Lol.
So the main fight happened in the bathroom and then they ended up running into the living room where Baggie hid under the couch. That's when I was able to throw a blanket on Freddie. I then scooped him up and put him in the bathroom so that Baggie could come back out and back into her room. She looked very frazzled but came out from under the couch and back into her room with treats. She sat briefly under the bed but right at the edge, and I gave her another treat and pet her, checking for any injuries. She seemed fine and perky and I left her to go check on Freddie.

I let him out of the bathroom and he seemed his normal, vocal self. They saw each other through the gate where Baggie now was sitting and seemed fine?? I went into the living room and he followed, and I checked him for injuries as well. He seemed normal and I played with him a bit.

Then I fed them both dinner and they ate close the gate as usual, no problem. Honestly they seemed fine, and Baggie seemed like totally okay? I played with her a bit after dinner as well and she was very into it as usual.

The fight itself scared me a lot though, and I thought, "oh no, this is really going to set things back!" In the fight they were like a singular, rapidly thrashing screaming furball!! I was like: I was so concerned...and Freddie seemed really "primal". Like I didn't even want to put my hands near him before they even made contact. And I found two clumps of hair on the floor, one from each cat.

But the recovery was...so quick it honestly surprised me? I expected Baguette to hide and cower, or at least not hang out by the gate at all after that. Or run away at the sight of Freddie. But alas, no..? And this morning, they have been rambunctiously playing at the gate for about and hour and a half! Like batting each other with paws, rocketing back and forth on their sides etc. Def playful vibes.

Overall...I'm very happy and amazed they are still friends! So maybe it was play after all Before the fight, I noticed that Baguette has even occasionally started to run up to the gate if she hears Freddie there, as if to greet him! And over the last few days, she seems really intent on coming out of the room, she waits at the gate looking at me and giving small begging peeps. She still seemed to still act like that today when I walk by, so even in spite of the fight, it seems like she wants out, even if Mr. Freddie is there and might jump her? I want to give her a medal for being so adaptable and forgiving, lol

What cat nap said. Totally. And I’ll 2nd the nomination for a medal for Baggie (Baggie!-I love it. Adorable!). It I’ll put forth the nomination for the Fred for the booby prize.

 

[cat nap]

Thanks cat nap !
I think Baguette and Freddie ran into the bathroom since it's right next to the gate entrance...but it is interesting that she didn't instead choose to run the opposite way down the hall into the living room (until later). Maybe she felt blocked by me since I was standing in that direction and the hallway is narrow. I can't remember if Freddie chased her in there or if she ran in there, and he pursued. It all happened so fast! But yeah, interesting she would make that choice

Ah, so running into the bathroom was done more of convenience...and a split second decision. That makes more sense, now.

I feel like when they are separated by the gate, I can definitely read that they are acting playful. But face-to-face they bring a whole different caliber to their play... When they play at the gate, I have noticed Baguette initiate some bopping and slapping...but I have not seen her initiate anything when they have meetings on the leash face-to-face. It's like she acts very fearful as soon as the gate is not there. But when the gate IS there, Freddie can come right up to her and bop HER in the face and she doesn't even budge Sometimes with Freddie, I sit in the living room and start his play sessions with a laser pointer and get him to sprint up and down the hall. Even then, if she is observing right behind the gate (which is right on the hall), she doesn't even flinch as he is literally barreling towards her at full speed. I supposed there's a lot of psychological safety for her behind the gate! I will def try to get some video footage soon and review it though.

That is really helpful that you noticed how they both act...behind a gate...and when face-to-face on a leash.
And yes, it definitely sounds like they totally change...their caliber of play...once the Gate is not there.
Yet, that is so great that Baguette initiates some bopping and slapping...with the gate up. Yay!
I didn't know she did that.
It means...that she will eventually be able to do it...with the gate down, too.
You just have to keep that momentum going...mostly through Repetition.

When you previously wrote, that "they have been rambunctiously playing at the gate for about and hour and a half! Like batting each other with paws, rocketing back and forth on their sides etc."
I thought that was so awesome...and something that we definitely want to see...happening more and more.

I think you are spot on...that she gets psychological safety.
And also 'real physical safety'...since she knows the gate is there to protect her...from Freddie's very eager, persistent, and sometimes extra excited attempts to Play with her.
Gate up means protection,...gate down...means no protection,...in Baguette's mind.

I was thinking that through constant Repetition, and with time,..that Baguette will be able to observe Freddie, and see that his Play Style ...is not meant to hurt her.
And that Freddie will also...through Repetition...become more relaxed and slightly change his play style...to better suit hers.

I also noticed in the previous videos, that Baguette did not seem to reciprocate ..any attempts...that Freddie made towards her...but i thought it had more to do with her slight fear of him,...and still not totally familiar with...his actions...and movements.
It's like she still needed more time...(well they both do)...to observe, and get used to each other's presence, movements, Scent, activity...around each other.

In the combination videos that you previously made, ...there was some real adjustments...happening on Freddie's part...since he was changing how he was trying to 'touch her with his paw'. He was both using his paw slowly, in that one part, and looked to be tentatively reaching out, and then changing his mind...watching her reaction.

Can you explain what you mean by paw positions, and what to look for there? Like who is throwing swipes?

Sure. Yes...by watching the cats' paw positions...I meant looking for things like what Freddie was doing in the previous videos...in his attempts to touch Baguette,...and how Baguette was laying on her side...with more paws facing Freddie.
Also if you happen to notice...when both cats are sitting or facing each other...or especially when they begin to swipe, ...which cat is the initial one to start it...and does the other cat react...with a corresponding paw strike.

Basically, yeah, it's who is throwing paw swipes, first,...and what the other cat does to counter them.
Sometimes the counter would be to...only flatten ears, strike back, run, or hide under furniture, too,...
or not actually swipe back.
Watching the whole body language is important, ears, hackles (fur up), eyes,...but I was just curious as to who begins a paw strike, and how it is being countered.

I know that I wrote above, that we want to see cats willing to engage with one another...but I was wrong there, or rather I wrote it poorly...since..the goal should be...to just have the cats...be able to be in the same room together...and not bother with each other, too.

So the 'willingness to engage with each other is really important'...mostly in Play...but having both cats ...be able to be in the same room together...and also not bother each other...is also a goal.
(somehow, I am explaining this very badly...but I am just trying to explain...that 'willingness to engage'...does not always have to mean touching, playing, or anything physical.

Just being in the same room together...is a 'willingness'. (I should find some better words, I know. Since you must be like "what the heck is cat nap trying to say?? " )

Also, last night's encounter, Freddie was obviously not harnessed...do you think I should still keep him harnessed but let him touch her more? Or just allow them to have more "organic" interactions off leash?

For now, I would have Freddie on harness...at least for the next four to five days.
And then reassess it again.
Reason being...is that you want Baguette to overcome any hesitation...or overcome having slight fear...about Freddie being able to jump on her.
She is still in the process of building up her Confidence, with him,...and he is also still in the process of Learning to not be so 'full on'.

I think it can only help, with the face to face meetings...if he is still harnessed.
And yes, you could let him touch her...but only allow it...if she is Receptive to it....meaning she is not getting too agitated or annoyed at him.

Also do the distracting him, with Treats...or play wands.
And if you can distract him with other toys...also great.
If he can lay down beside you, or near you, and relax...also good.

Like you noticed before,...choose a time, when Freddie seems more relaxed or sleepy, and not so hyped up.
Or if you do it at various times...just take note...on how hyped he actually is.

Interesting question about Freddie when in Baguette's room - long story short, he's totally fine in there, but only if I'm in there with him.
I only really put him in there at bedtime with me on nights that we siteswap, which is about every other night. He pretty much just goes to sleep, maybe scratches the post a bit.

However, he HATES being left in there alone without me. He will whine and cry if he is locked in there, and Baguette and I are in the living room. Same goes for when I put him in the bathroom. Also true for when I go into the bathroom alone and lock the door I think it's more of a personality thing - he hates being left out! Although on nights when he sleeps out in the living room, he behaves pretty well. Some nights he's better than others about crying at the door. And I just wear earplugs to bed and ignore it.

But yesterday afternoon I actually wanted to give Baguette some time in the living room during the day, so I tried putting him in there (with the gate up, door open). I hadn't tried that in a while. He tried very hard to squeeze through the cracks of the gate and was struggling pretty hard to do so. He also whined and cried a lot. Then, he actually started to CLIMB up the gate, which neither cat has tried to do. At that point I just shut the whole door on him to give Baguette a few more mins in the living room. Do you think I should work on making him more comfy in her room?

" Do you think I should work on making him more comfy in her room?"
No. and ...maybe.
I can't decide.

Not after the above story. Poor guy. Maybe you can work on that afterwards.
No need to add more stress into his life, right now.
(Although, Baguette having time out in the living room during the day, is also increasing her Positive feelings...so now I am rather conflicted...and don't know how to answer.)

I don't think I could take the whining and crying...too long.
I wonder if any of the cat toys that are battery operated...or like puzzle feeders would occupy him, for a while.
Closing the door sounds good,...if it does make Freddie relax...and not try to squeeze out. poor guy.
Climbing...wow.

I'm so sorry, but parts of this story are just making me laugh.
Like the part where you go to the bathroom...and lock the door....
(I call my dog...'my shadow'...but Freddie takes the meaning of 'shadow'...to a whole new level.
Freddie is similar to my Tepaul...where both cats want a 'total open door policy'...in every room of the home.
Okay, if you spend hours in the bathroom, having a spa day, or something...maybe it's okay for Freddie to want in...but yeah, wow...that is slightly hilarious.)

 

[Xena44]

Ah, so running into the bathroom was done more of convenience...and a split second decision. That makes more sense, now.

That is really helpful that you noticed how they both act...behind a gate...and when face-to-face on a leash.
And yes, it definitely sounds like they totally change...their caliber of play...once the Gate is not there.
Yet, that is so great that Baguette initiates some bopping and slapping...with the gate up. Yay!
I didn't know she did that.
It means...that she will eventually be able to do it...with the gate down, too.
You just have to keep that momentum going...mostly through Repetition.

When you previously wrote, that "they have been rambunctiously playing at the gate for about and hour and a half! Like batting each other with paws, rocketing back and forth on their sides etc."
I thought that was so awesome...and something that we definitely want to see...happening more and more.

I think you are spot on...that she gets psychological safety.
And also 'real physical safety'...since she knows the gate is there to protect her...from Freddie's very eager, persistent, and sometimes extra excited attempts to Play with her.
Gate up means protection,...gate down...means no protection,...in Baguette's mind.

I was thinking that through constant Repetition, and with time,..that Baguette will be able to observe Freddie, and see that his Play Style ...is not meant to hurt her.
And that Freddie will also...through Repetition...become more relaxed and slightly change his play style...to better suit hers.

I also noticed in the previous videos, that Baguette did not seem to reciprocate ..any attempts...that Freddie made towards her...but i thought it had more to do with her slight fear of him,...and still not totally familiar with...his actions...and movements.
It's like she still needed more time...(well they both do)...to observe, and get used to each other's presence, movements, Scent, activity...around each other.

In the combination videos that you previously made, ...there was some real adjustments...happening on Freddie's part...since he was changing how he was trying to 'touch her with his paw'. He was both using his paw slowly, in that one part, and looked to be tentatively reaching out, and then changing his mind...watching her reaction.

Sure. Yes...by watching the cats' paw positions...I meant looking for things like what Freddie was doing in the previous videos...in his attempts to touch Baguette,...and how Baguette was laying on her side...with more paws facing Freddie.
Also if you happen to notice...when both cats are sitting or facing each other...or especially when they begin to swipe, ...which cat is the initial one to start it...and does the other cat react...with a corresponding paw strike.

Basically, yeah, it's who is throwing paw swipes, first,...and what the other cat does to counter them.
Sometimes the counter would be to...only flatten ears, strike back, run, or hide under furniture, too,...
or not actually swipe back.
Watching the whole body language is important, ears, hackles (fur up), eyes,...but I was just curious as to who begins a paw strike, and how it is being countered.

I know that I wrote above, that we want to see cats willing to engage with one another...but I was wrong there, or rather I wrote it poorly...since..the goal should be...to just have the cats...be able to be in the same room together...and not bother with each other, too.

So the 'willingness to engage with each other is really important'...mostly in Play...but having both cats ...be able to be in the same room together...and also not bother each other...is also a goal.
(somehow, I am explaining this very badly...but I am just trying to explain...that 'willingness to engage'...does not always have to mean touching, playing, or anything physical.

Just being in the same room together...is a 'willingness'. (I should find some better words, I know. Since you must be like "what the heck is cat nap trying to say?? " )

For now, I would have Freddie on harness...at least for the next four to five days.
And then reassess it again.
Reason being...is that you want Baguette to overcome any hesitation...or overcome having slight fear...about Freddie being able to jump on her.
She is still in the process of building up her Confidence, with him,...and he is also still in the process of Learning to not be so 'full on'.

I think it can only help, with the face to face meetings...if he is still harnessed.
And yes, you could let him touch her...but only allow it...if she is Receptive to it....meaning she is not getting too agitated or annoyed at him.

Also do the distracting him, with Treats...or play wands.
And if you can distract him with other toys...also great.
If he can lay down beside you, or near you, and relax...also good.

Like you noticed before,...choose a time, when Freddie seems more relaxed or sleepy, and not so hyped up.
Or if you do it at various times...just take note...on how hyped he actually is.

" Do you think I should work on making him more comfy in her room?"
No. and ...maybe.
I can't decide.

Not after the above story. Poor guy. Maybe you can work on that afterwards.
No need to add more stress into his life, right now.
(Although, Baguette having time out in the living room during the day, is also increasing her Positive feelings...so now I am rather conflicted...and don't know how to answer.)

I don't think I could take the whining and crying...too long.
I wonder if any of the cat toys that are battery operated...or like puzzle feeders would occupy him, for a while.
Closing the door sounds good,...if it does make Freddie relax...and not try to squeeze out. poor guy.
Climbing...wow.

I'm so sorry, but parts of this story are just making me laugh.
Like the part where you go to the bathroom...and lock the door....
(I call my dog...'my shadow'...but Freddie takes the meaning of 'shadow'...to a whole new level.
Freddie is similar to my Tepaul...where both cats want a 'total open door policy'...in every room of the home.
Okay, if you spend hours in the bathroom, having a spa day, or something...maybe it's okay for Freddie to want in...but yeah, wow...that is slightly hilarious.)

I like what you’re saying. Very much. And I love the perspective that the goal is to have them be in the same room and not want to engage with each other. Coexistence And yesyesyes I’m keeping Friday with a harness on. But also may turn into a reminder to him to chill out. Like wearing a Thunder shirt.

 

[heybeanbag]

Hi friends, hope you had a great weekend!
We made some really great progress over the past couple of days!

Freddie (harnessed) and Baggie got to spend a lot of time hanging out in the living room together over the weekend. I would basically sit on one end of Fred's leash and allow Baggie to come out/explore. Freddie would have a certain radius of ground he could cover from where I was sitting, which Baguette would begin to calculate over time. She was shy about getting close at first, especially after his initial lunges in her direction, but then she got more bold.

I experimented with letting the meetings go on longer. In the meetings, after the first several minutes of Freddie straining to pursue/touch her (but not reach her), he would kind of simmer down and get bored. Then they would do a lot of looking at each other but not moving much, like this:

Here is a video where they did get to touch and "play" on the couch. At the start of the interaction at 0:07, it seems very playful, they bop each other with claws retracted. Then around 0:14 Baguette folds her ears back and throws a jab at Freddie. Also you can't hear it very well in the video, but she is emitting a low growl the whole time...I feel like the vibe shifts a bit at this point to more "intense". It is interesting to see that maybe it's Baguette in this interaction that raises the ante of the play to a more "fighty" level?

She then does a big hiss at 0:22 and then seems to relax her ears again at 0:30ish before they both get distracted with a treat. She definitely holds her ground! This interaction happened on Sunday. Definitely curious to hear your interpretation(s) of this interaction!

The last section of the video was taken yesterday, on Monday. It shows them both ignoring each other and relaxing on their respective window sills!! The best part is, they actually continued to do this for 2 more hours! We put on a movie and Baguette continued to chill on the right-most windowsill, while Freddie climbed up the cat tree in the left corner and slept (we let go of his leash and everything) He'd sometimes wake up and look at her, but would not act. It was such a huge milestone!!

 

[cat nap]

The last section of the video was taken yesterday, on Monday. It shows them both ignoring each other and relaxing on their respective window sills!! The best part is, they actually continued to do this for 2 more hours! We put on a movie and Baguette continued to chill on the right-most windowsill, while Freddie climbed up the cat tree in the left corner and slept (we let go of his leash and everything) He'd sometimes wake up and look at her, but would not act. It was such a huge milestone!!

This is such an amazing update!!
Yay!!
(I swear, I thought it would take two weeks to get to this last part...but you took only two days.
((Lucky, I never bet with money...or I'd be broke. lol.))

Your observations of the videos are also spot on, heybeanbag .
I'll give you my detailed observations later on tonight...but I just wanted to comment on a short few things that I noticed, too.

Freddie does have some sort of fascination with 'biting while playing'.
It could be because he never properly learned 'bite inhibition' when he was a kitten...but it does not matter, now, ...since I think that Baguette...will 'big time teach him'...what she does not like....and she definitely does not like being bit on the torso, on the back, or wherever else he is trying to reach her.
He will get whacked,...by her, for sure,...if he constantly tries that move.
At least now, she is used to him,...and will not tolerate his 'bitey ways'.

Freddie does the attempts to bite, at the 0:02 mark,...0:13 mark,...and again at the 0:20 mark.
It's great to see that Baguette does not lose her cool, and go all ballistic on him.
I wish we could come up with something that would deter him from biting, or distract him, teach him...that biting is not the way to play....but I cannot think of anything....right now.
I have to think back...on some threads...and see if anything comes to mind.

Also, so fantastic ...that you were able to Distract Freddie...with only your voice...by making that sound at the 0:40 mark....and then giving him a Treat.

And how Awesome was that...at the end of the video....where they were both enjoying their ...own windowsills.
Yay, yay...and more happy yays...coming from over here.
This does call for a happy dance...so I'll join in, too, with some more banana dances...and a few others...thrown in as well.


I would still continue to do the harness with Freddie...for a few more days...only because I really like how Baggie (which reminds me of the name maggie, now. lol. ...but with a french, classy, sassy, twist. lol)
is calculating the radius...of how far Freddie can reach.

She's like a 'scientist cat'...who does calculations in her head...and through observations...and trials...gets to properly reach some great conclusions. hahaha.
Both of your cats are amazing, and awesome.

It's ultra cute that Freddie has pink on some of his paw pads...so cute...and that black front left toe...makes me think of a thumb. haha.
And Baguette yawning in that first photo...is hilarious.

You have an amazing talent for taking photos.
Some of your photos should definitely be entered in the monthly photo contests.

I don't know which themes they would be under...but I think they really show a lot of clarity, colour, and especially that previous one with Freddie's moustache. Awesomely cute. Laying in that colourful tunnel.
(my sister watches some agatha christie...and now Freddie reminds me of Hercule Poirot ...who is a detective and french speaker from belgium ...I think. He has that same type of moustache. Though, it will still be antonio bandaras for me...since I don't think that freddie would be able to solve mysteries, quite yet.)
Anyhow, I think I have to watch that Queen movie...once again...to get more of the feel of Freddie Mercury.
My favourite song is "I want it all"...by Queen....because of course..."I do want it all"...naturally...lol.

Okay, back to focus on your cats.
You are doing great.

 

[Xena44]

They, you, are doing AWESSSSSOOOME!!!! I love the fact that they are both not so intent and focused that the intensity is easily diffused by just a little bit of distraction. And by the fact that once Freddy has reached the end of his reach, he just accepts it and moves on. Like a child who has had his toy taken away and just goes onto a different one. You’re doing an amazing job beanbag. Truly. They are very lucky cats to have you. Don’t get discouraged if they have a little tussle here and there, you’re doing great!

 

[heybeanbag]

This is such an amazing update!!
Yay!!
(I swear, I thought it would take two weeks to get to this last part...but you took only two days.
((Lucky, I never bet with money...or I'd be broke. lol.))

Your observations of the videos are also spot on, heybeanbag .
I'll give you my detailed observations later on tonight...but I just wanted to comment on a short few things that I noticed, too.

Freddie does have some sort of fascination with 'biting while playing'.
It could be because he never properly learned 'bite inhibition' when he was a kitten...but it does not matter, now, ...since I think that Baguette...will 'big time teach him'...what she does not like....and she definitely does not like being bit on the torso, on the back, or wherever else he is trying to reach her.
He will get whacked,...by her, for sure,...if he constantly tries that move.
At least now, she is used to him,...and will not tolerate his 'bitey ways'.

Freddie does the attempts to bite, at the 0:02 mark,...0:13 mark,...and again at the 0:20 mark.
It's great to see that Baguette does not lose her cool, and go all ballistic on him.
I wish we could come up with something that would deter him from biting, or distract him, teach him...that biting is not the way to play....but I cannot think of anything....right now.
I have to think back...on some threads...and see if anything comes to mind.

Also, so fantastic ...that you were able to Distract Freddie...with only your voice...by making that sound at the 0:40 mark....and then giving him a Treat.

And how Awesome was that...at the end of the video....where they were both enjoying their ...own windowsills.
Yay, yay...and more happy yays...coming from over here.
This does call for a happy dance...so I'll join in, too, with some more banana dances...and a few others...thrown in as well.


I would still continue to do the harness with Freddie...for a few more days...only because I really like how Baggie (which reminds me of the name maggie, now. lol. ...but with a french, classy, sassy, twist. lol)
is calculating the radius...of how far Freddie can reach.

She's like a 'scientist cat'...who does calculations in her head...and through observations...and trials...gets to properly reach some great conclusions. hahaha.
Both of your cats are amazing, and awesome.

It's ultra cute that Freddie has pink on some of his paw pads...so cute...and that black front left toe...makes me think of a thumb. haha.
And Baguette yawning in that first photo...is hilarious.

You have an amazing talent for taking photos.
Some of your photos should definitely be entered in the monthly photo contests.

I don't know which themes they would be under...but I think they really show a lot of clarity, colour, and especially that previous one with Freddie's moustache. Awesomely cute. Laying in that colourful tunnel.
(my sister watches some agatha christie...and now Freddie reminds me of Hercule Poirot ...who is a detective and french speaker from belgium ...I think. He has that same type of moustache. Though, it will still be antonio bandaras for me...since I don't think that freddie would be able to solve mysteries, quite yet.)
Anyhow, I think I have to watch that Queen movie...once again...to get more of the feel of Freddie Mercury.
My favourite song is "I want it all"...by Queen....because of course..."I do want it all"...naturally...lol.

Okay, back to focus on your cats.
You are doing great.

Thanks so much for celebrating with me!! I couldn't have gotten here without your and Xena44 's awesome advice and support! Yay! You all rock.

Yes it does seem like Freddie really likes to nip Baguette! I didn't realize that was happening until I rewatched the video at the slowest setting. Is that a normal type of move in cat play? I also wonder if her hormones are also still present, but winding down, and it's some kind of mating behavior? It's been about 6 weeks since she was spayed now. Either way like you said, she's gonna teach him to stop

Aw thank you for compliments on my pics! I'm so glad you like them I didn't even know there was a monthly photo contest, I will definitely check it out! Haha I could totally see Freddie as Hercule Poirot, a colorful mustached character indeed! And yes I am obsessed with his pink toe beans!

So, I do have one question about escape routes: is an escape route a "highway" for the cat to escape on, or rather a safe "destination"?

I ask because when Baguette is afraid of something or Freddie lunges at her, her go-to spot/trajectory is usually under the bed. And I have feeling that she might end up cornered there in the future because she chooses to go there instead of up her cat tree for example. idk she might surprise me but...just curious if that is acceptable as an "escape route" or "escape destination"?

Also I live in a one bedroom apartment, and I have one cat tree in the living room and one in the bedroom (Baggie's room), but I don't have cat shelving or a "cat superhighway" where they have an elevated "circuit" necessarily.

I probably need to check with my landlord about installing shelves...but I'm curious if you have thoughts around other catification or escape route tips I might be able to set up as a renter. It seems like Baguette might be more of a "low to the ground cat" anyway so I definitely want to makes sure she has escape accommodations...or maybe hiding under the bed is fine...!