New To Raw - I'm So Confused

[Ardina]

I'm thinking about feeding my cat raw, but I have so many questions.

But first, some backstory: Saipha is just about 2 years old. When I first adopted her as a kitten, she only ate dry food. At some point, I stumbled across Dr. Pierson's website and started trying to transition her to wet food. Trying being the key word here. I don't know if Saipha is a special sort of stubborn, but I had no idea how long this was going to end up taking. It took more than a year to transition her - first from Hill's Science dry food (what the shelter had been feeding her) to Blue Wilderness dry food to just the gravy off very specific types of Fancy Feast to what she is currently eating: Friskies and Fancy Feast pate.

I was in the process of transitioning her further to better wet food (Wellness) and really struggling with it when I tried giving her a spoonful of the raw that my roommate's cat eats. It was a miracle - she loved it! It's such a relief to find a food that she actually licks the bowl clean for.

So now that I've found a food that she likes and is actually species-appropriate (thank goodness for no more transitioning - my patience was really starting to run out), I'm wondering how to go about this.

The brand of raw that she really likes and has been eating happily for a few days is Darwin's, but I read that it may have too much bone content. Does anyone have experience with this particular brand and its bone content? Saipha doesn't mind eating the little chunks of bone, but I'd rather she not get so much that it causes crystals and other urinary tract issues.

How long can you leave out raw food? Saipha is very much a nibbler - she'll eat a few bites, get distracted by a toy, take a nap, and then have a few more bites. Not to mention that in a few months, I won't be home as much. And Saipha has pica - when she gets hungry, she starts gnawing on all sorts of nonedible things. If I'm going to be out of the house for 12ish hours a day, is there a way to safely feed raw? Or am I going to have to leave canned for her to nibble on when I'm out?

I'm a little concerned about how much raw Saipha has been eating the last few days. I wasn't sure of the caloric content of Darwin's, so I've been feeding her as much as she wants to get a gauge. Saipha weighs 11.5 lbs and usually eats around 200-220 calories of canned food - about 9 oz - per day. She's pretty good about self-regulating her food intake and is at a good weight. I crunched some numbers and figured that at her weight and assuming she eats 3% of her body weight, she should be eating 5.5 oz of raw per day. Today she ate a whole 8 oz and would probably have eaten more if I had any extra thawed out. She is a very active cat, but is that too much? Should I limit her intake?

Finally, in terms of finances, Darwin's is going to get expensive fast. At her rate of 8 oz/day, it'll be $90/month. Is there a cheaper way of doing raw that doesn't involve getting a grinder?

If you've read this all the way through, thank you for bearing with me! Here's a picture of Saipha being cute:

 

[dhammagirl]

Hi Ardina!
I found that ordering from Hare Today is more affordable than the commercially prepared raw, plus you control what's in it. Some of the commercially prepared raw have fruits and vegetables, which cats don't need.
With Hare Today, you can get a variety of meats, ground with or without bones, organs, whole prey, chunks. They also have the Alnutrin supplements, but it's cheaper to get the Alnutrin directly from the manufacturer, knowwhatyoufeed. You'll want to get a small scale, a little digital kitchen scale that can measure in ounces and grams, they're not expensive, I got mine at Walmart. I use it to weigh the supplements powder and the prepared food for my overweight cat, who's lost almost 4 pounds, thanks to the raw food and monitoring his food and weight.
You can start with 1 or 2 pound chubs of ground to see which ones she likes, then get that in the 5 pound chubs, which is more cost effective. My little girl kitty is the picky one, she only likes the whole carcass ground rabbit, which includes the fur. Recently, Hare Today was out of the whole carcass ground rabbit, and I waited as long as I could, but simply had to order more food, so I got the ground rabbit with bones and organs. The boys are fine with it, but she snubbed it. I had a couple pounds of ground whole carcass cavies, so I made a batch of the rabbit and added the cavies, and she'll eat that. Depending on where you're at, shipping can be costly, so you want to order as much as you can get in your freezer. We eventually got a small chest freezer so I could order 55 pounds each time.
Once you figure out which meats she likes, it's pretty easy. You thaw the chub, cut it open and dump it in a large bowl (I use a roasting pan) , add the appropriate amount of supplements, water, fish oil (I found Iceland Pure Unscented on Amazon to be affordable and easy) and mix it up, divide into containers for freezing.
I keep a journal of what I made and when. For turkey, I get boneless ground from Hare Today and a bag of turkey hearts and a bag of turkey livers. I grind the appropriate amount of thawed hearts and livers with a small manual grinder, it "attaches" to the edge of the counter or table, and can be used for making pasta or grinding boneless meat. I know it can be overwhelming when you first get going on the raw food prep, but once you determine what she'll eat, how much to get, and get the hang of preparation, it's not difficult.

As for how long you can leave raw food out, I feel comfortable leaving out a small amount for a few hours. I know some folks would think that could be a problem, but I've done it for the past year or so, and haven't had any problems with kitties getting sick. My kittygirl is like yours, eat a little, wander off, come back to finish it later.

 

[Ardina]

Thank you so much for the advice, dhammagirl! For the Alnutrin supplement, I saw that there's one with calcium to add to boneless ground and one without calcium for meat and bone together. Is there any reason to prefer food with ground in bone vs calcium added via the supplement? And if I do the former, I saw that bone should be kept at 5-10%. Is that by mass? And therefore I would have to dilute out the bone if it's higher than that?

Also, how many different proteins do you rotate?

 

[dhammagirl]

I think the ground in bone would include nutrients from the marrow and digest more slowly, but that's just my perception. For kitties with certain medical issues, the different calcium in the supplements might be a consideration. The percentage of bone, meat, and organs might be by mass or weight, I'm not certain about that.
If you get a ground meat with a higher bone percentage, like bird, you do need to add more meat and organs to balance it out. There's a calculator for that here on the site somewhere. One of the great things about the whole carcass ground rabbit is it's the desired ratios, 80-10-10, I just need to add the Alnutrin, fish oil and water. I also add additional taurine powder, which is cheap from Bulk Supplements, and which I take myself, just to be sure the kitties get plenty of taurine. I rotate rabbit, cavies (less often, because it's more $$), turkey, and my picky kittygirl also gets canned Fancy Feast chicken and liver pate. Zeke, who's been overweight, also gets chunks of rabbit with bones and organs, whole adult mice, and whole chicks - these slow down his eating, and seem to help him feel more sated, otherwise he'd inhale his ground food and act famished and cry for food all day.

 

[orange&white]

The brand of raw that she really likes and has been eating happily for a few days is Darwin's, but I read that it may have too much bone content. Does anyone have experience with this particular brand and its bone content? Saipha doesn't mind eating the little chunks of bone, but I'd rather she not get so much that it causes crystals and other urinary tract issues.

If she's healthy, too much bone won't give her crystals. Too much bone in a raw diet causes constipation. 5-10% is the right amount with 10% being the "standard". From there, you pay attention to the cat's poop. If it looks too dry or white, or if the cat is constipated, then you cut back on the bone content. If the cat is having loose stools, then you increase the bone (and make sure there isn't too much liver in the food). If you determine a food is "too boney" then just add extra boneless meat.

How long can you leave out raw food? Saipha is very much a nibbler - she'll eat a few bites, get distracted by a toy, take a nap, and then have a few more bites. Not to mention that in a few months, I won't be home as much. And Saipha has pica - when she gets hungry, she starts gnawing on all sorts of nonedible things. If I'm going to be out of the house for 12ish hours a day, is there a way to safely feed raw? Or am I going to have to leave canned for her to nibble on when I'm out?

My senior eats his meals in 1-2 minutes flat and licks the plate. He gets two meals fed every (approx.) 12 hours. My kitten is a nibbler and eats at least 3 meals a day. I do leave her food out when I leave for work, but only because she won't eat it after it gets "stale". When her tummy is larger, I plan to feed her 2 meals a day.

Since Saipha is 2 years old, there's no reason you can't feed her 2 meals a day at 12 hours.

I'm a little concerned about how much raw Saipha has been eating the last few days. I wasn't sure of the caloric content of Darwin's, so I've been feeding her as much as she wants to get a gauge. Saipha weighs 11.5 lbs and usually eats around 200-220 calories of canned food - about 9 oz - per day. She's pretty good about self-regulating her food intake and is at a good weight. I crunched some numbers and figured that at her weight and assuming she eats 3% of her body weight, she should be eating 5.5 oz of raw per day. Today she ate a whole 8 oz and would probably have eaten more if I had any extra thawed out. She is a very active cat, but is that too much? Should I limit her intake?

That is almost 5% of her body weight (2-4% is average), so that is a lot of food, but perhaps Saipha's "normal" since she is a young, very active cat. If she keeps eating that much food, I'd be sure to weigh her once a month to make sure she isn't gaining too much weight.

Finally, in terms of finances, Darwin's is going to get expensive fast. At her rate of 8 oz/day, it'll be $90/month. Is there a cheaper way of doing raw that doesn't involve getting a grinder?

I can't afford pre-mixes and don't own a grinder. I feed two cats 20 pounds of raw food every month for less than $30. There is a major trade-off between time and money though...I spend a couple hours on the weekend making cat food from scratch...and sale shopping for fresh meats. You could buy some - make some to stretch your budget.

Saipha is a beautiful cat!

 

[orange&white]

For the Alnutrin supplement, I saw that there's one with calcium to add to boneless ground and one without calcium for meat and bone together. Is there any reason to prefer food with ground in bone vs calcium added via the supplement? And if I do the former, I saw that bone should be kept at 5-10%. Is that by mass? And therefore I would have to dilute out the bone if it's higher than that?

Also, how many different proteins do you rotate?

Bones are preferred because of the minerals in the bone marrow (as dhammagirl noted). In a raw diet, all ingredients in food are measured by weight, not by volume.

The more proteins you can rotate, the better. I rotate what I can afford and can easily find locally: chicken, turkey, pork, and beef.

Lots of good advice from dhammagirl, BTW.

 

[Ardina]

Thank you for all the great advice orange&white! All the tips from you and dhammagirl are making me feel a lot more confident about making raw food.

For diluting out meats with too much ground-in bone, can you use heart? Or is it better to use regular muscle meat? If I don't add additional heart, is there going to be enough taurine from just the Alnutrin supplement?

 

[orange&white]

Heart is a great food, considered a muscle meat, not an organ meat. I'd probably rotate, or mix heart and other muscle. You can cut packaged meats into chunks and freeze them in muffin tins, then toss the meat muffins into freezer bags. Convenient little meatsicles.

For taurine, the Alnutrin should have plenty since you won't be adding a lot of extra meat to a pre-mix, but I always lean on the safe side and add taurine. For every 1.5 pounds of food, I add 1 - 500mg capsule of taurine. If you make "meatsicles" as above, then it would be easy to stir in some extra taurine.

 

[Ardina]

Okay, I'm going to make the plunge. Just ordered a couple of different proteins in small amounts from Hare Today to see what Saipha likes. I'm going to start out with Alnutrin just to make sure that I don't miss any vital nutrients, but once I figure things out, I'll probably switch to making my own supplements to reduce costs. Planning to pick up a kitchen scale this weekend.

I ran out of the commercial raw over the weekend, and Saipha was not happy - she's turning her nose up at food again, sigh...

If anyone is interested, from my experience with the Darwin's, its bone content is a bit too high. Saipha got a little constipated and her poop was quite a bit paler than usual. And their prices are going up, so probably a good thing that I'm going to go with homemade.

Let's hope this goes well!

 

[orange&white]

If you don't own a scale yet, may I recommend a shipping/postal scale? Most kitchen scales top out at 11 pounds. In March, I bought a scale that weighs up to 55 pounds. I can weigh tiny portions of food, but I can also set a cat carrier on it to weight the cats (and dog). There are lots of brands, but I bought the Ultraship55 with the optional A/C adapter from Old Will Knot on eBay (they also have and independent website, but the price was a little higher there).

 

[Ardina]

I'll definitely consider it! That way I won't have to buy another scale when I start making food in bulk. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[orange&white]

Read user reviews before selecting any scale. A heck of a lot of scales have bad reviews because they aren't accurate, which begs the question, "What's the point of having a scale if it doesn't weigh correctly?"

 

[Ardina]

An exciting update on the transition to raw:

I got the shipment from Hare Today and tried some whole ground rabbit carcass with Saipha. It just took one treat on top to get her to try it and then she proceeded to lick the plate clean! Let's hope this continues with the other proteins that I'm going to try with her over the next week.

Also, after the first couple days of eating 8 oz daily of the Darwin's, I think her body has adjusted and now she eats a much more reasonable 5-6 oz! Phew, that'll be easier on the budget.

 

[orange&white]

That's super news! Look forward to updates on Saipha's adventure with other proteins.

 

[Ardina]

More updates and a question too:

Saipha loved the batch of ground chicken + whole chicken hearts (yay!) but stared at the beef like I was trying to poison her (sigh). I'm hopeful she'll like the turkey too, since she liked the Darwin's turkey. I also managed to get a good-sized used chest freezer for pretty cheap!

I realized that Hare Today's ground chicken organ is about an even mix of heart, liver, and gizzards. So that means that only 1/3 is actually secreting organ for the purposes of raw feeding. Ground rabbit organ is a bit better with 50% liver, 25% kidney, and 25% heart. But regardless, it's going to be impossible to get a total mix of 5% liver and 5% other organ using the ground rabbit organ. So what's the best way to resolve this? Would I need to get an extra source of non-liver organ? Would it be bad to add in extra ground rabbit organ to get to 5% kidney, but then end up with more than 5% liver? Or can I just figure that 75% of the organ mix is actually organ and adjust the amount I add accordingly (and not worry that the eventual ratio will be 7.5% liver and 2.5% non-liver organ)?

(Edited to clarify questions)

 

[Ardina]

Also, is it necessary to have some red meat in the diet? If so, what is considered red meat besides beef?

 

[orange&white]

One ingredient I try to keep constant is 5% liver, not more, not less. Liver is very rich in nutrients, especially Vitamin A. Too little vit-A can be detrimental, but too much can be toxic. I wish Hare Today would do a 50/50 liver to kidney, but I'd rather use too little kidney than too much liver.

 

[orange&white]

Also, is it necessary to have some red meat in the diet? If so, what is considered red meat besides beef?

No, I don't think it's necessary. The more proteins you can rotate, the better, preferably with at least 3 proteins. All three could light meat: chicken, turkey, rabbit for instance.

There aren't a lot of other "common" red meats besides beef and lamb. Venison and bison come to mind, and I'm remembering emu meat being quite red.

Some people call pork red and some call it white...so it's whatever you want it to be.

 

[Ardina]

Thank you orange&white! You're always so helpful and so quick to answer!

 

[Ardina]

I did more research, and I think you're right that liver really shouldn't exceed 5%. But I also don't feel comfortable feeding less than 10% organ long term, so I might just get some kidney and add some to get to 10% total.