New Kitten Introduction

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Moggielady

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You're very welcome. I'm simply enjoying your thread, updates, and your cat-to-kitten introduction process. :cloud9:
So thank you kindly for allowing me to be part of this journey. :thumbsup:

I was so hoping that Audrey's swipes, were actually 'less intense'...and not 'slightly more'...but that is okay.
The most intense swipe from that Bengal cat was when she was sitting on her armchair,..and strikes him at the 3:27 mark.

"I will try to film them together but it can be tricky to do whilst monitoring and distracting at the same time!"
See this is where you are really kind to me. :agree:
Instead of coming back and saying, "umm catnap, I'm not actually an octopus with 8 arms and legs where I can film, monitor, and distract...and play, plus you probably want me to play classical music, and intervene when it looks like it's going bad, too." :lol: :crackup:
:frustrated:

You know, I never really thought about how tricky it actually would be. :paperbag:

If you set up the camera phone somewhere on a stand...I could just see either cat just knocking it down...and there goes a perfectly good phone or camera. And you're also right about how difficult it is to have black cats show up clearly on film, unless the lighting is like perfect. (I think I am wanting a hollywood production now. I shall blame it on the names of Audrey and Elliot J. Clawson. ha. :cool2: :lol:)

(What's strange about the bengal video is that the narrator doesn't think that any of the body language or bengal's movements are threatening. I found that odd. I would never hold a resident cat in my arms...who is clearly upset and hissing...for fear of getting bit myself...no matter if it were my cat or not.
Also, they never tell you that that Bengal cat is, or was, actually a former breeding queen,...so doesn't that mean that she's been around kittens for most of her life? :dunno: (I only found out this info from watching their other video on introducing a third cat.)

I also find the video useful, ..since it shows what could happen,...but I kind of wandered off at the 8:54 minute mark...since then the bengal is already laying down...you kind of know that she was wanting to play with the kitten.
There is another part, though, where the kitten actually jumps on and attacks the bengal...and I thought..."wow kitten, really bad move" :eek2: ....but she ends up running away,...so I was really surprised by that. I thought she would have rolled and bit him right back.

Do you think Audrey swiping at Elliot, ...had anything to do with both being 'in the bedroom'...if she feels that is still 'her territory'?
But from your descriptions from before, ...it sounds more like she just does not want him to come too close to her.
Very good thinking about giving the treats, while he is near.

Again, not that bad.
I don't think you'll be able to stop him from chasing her...And the fact that she came back after 20 minutes is excellent.
Curious to know, if both Elliot and Audrey will turn this into 'sort of a game'...where she'll be on the windowsill, go upstairs and he chases her again. Hmm. :think:

Ahh, poor guy. Glad that he's okay.
(My cats, as kittens, would run into walls and furniture, and such, but I don't remember seeing them run into the glass door, yet.)

You might have to put 'tiny stickers' onto the glass door.
(I had to do that for my dog, and myself, actually.) (Yes, I did slam into the sliding glass door a few times. There are two, and I thought I had left one open. Nope and "ouch". Also had to place a 'fabric colored ribbon' on the exterior sliding screen door...same reason...:rolleyes2:)
I think her swiping in the bedroom was much the same as her swiping downstairs.She just doesn't want him to come closer than about 1ft. Looking again I would say the swipe in the video at 3.27 is probably about the same as hers, except that sometimes she does two or three strikes, not just one. And she will growl as well as hiss.

Good news with Audrey is that she is starting to play a little bit again: she had basically stopped playing since we brought him home. And she is coming for morning and nighttime scratches too. So she is behaving a bit more normally. :woo:

I took him near her bed again this morning and he really kept his distance. Seemed more wary of her. I feel bad for the little guy that she's managed to make him more cautious, but perhaps that is a good thing? Anyway, she growled and hissed as usual but there was no swiping and they both took treats from me.

However, she is venturing downstairs less, and if she is downstairs and sees that he is loose, she basically just turns tail and goes up to the bedroom again. This is the question I have now. If I don't close our bedroom off and Elliot is loose (and especially if he annoys Audrey), she will just go under the bed. But if she goes under the bed I have to take Elliot away (in case he follows her under there and I can't separate them). So Audrey can effectively escape from him *whenever she likes*. She can just end their sessions together. Which will surely inhibit our progress? (Thinking of Art's metaphor - it's like just being able to say, Nope, I don't wanna see no spiders today, thanks very much!)

So there seem to be three choices: 1) Close off the bedroom, i.e. close off her safe space, for set periods of time. (She has other places she likes to be like the downstairs windowsills.) 2) Let Elliot follow her under the bed, and hope I can distract them with treats if anything goes wrong. 3) Keep doing what we're doing and don't worry about the whole process slowing down and them seeing less of one another.

I will try and get my octopus arms on today for filming :)

Yes to stickers on the doors!! Actually now you mention it I walked into it myself a few weeks ago...
 

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So there seem to be three choices: 1) Close off the bedroom, i.e. close off her safe space, for set periods of time. (She has other places she likes to be like the downstairs windowsills.) 2) Let Elliot follow her under the bed, and hope I can distract them with treats if anything goes wrong. 3) Keep doing what we're doing and don't worry about the whole process slowing down and them seeing less of one another.
Honestly, I think #3 is the proper way to go...since when I think of the timeline of your cat-intros...I think it's only been about 2.5 weeks.
(I don't actually ever count the first week, since I think it is a huge Adjustment period for the newcomer...and also for the resident cat.
I'm not sure why everyone counts that first week?)

(And why in the video...does the narrator always mention...3 days??
Is 3 days some sort of magical number? Like poof...3 days later...good things all of a sudden happen. Or 3 days and then his patience wears out. 3 is an awesome number...but is it some sort of 'limit setting one" I don't know...and I'm digressing. yikes. :stars:)

I do also like option #1 :thumbsup:
Because you said you'll only close off her bedroom for 'short set periods of time'
And she does have other places she likes to go...up high...on her windowsills. :purplebutterfly: :bluedragonfly:


There is a 4th option...if possible? (if you notice that Audrey is so upset...and really needs to have her safe space in her bedroom...
4) Can you close off access to underneath the bed,...by using pillows, blankets, boxes, cardboard... or anything else you can think of ?
(In this way, I am thinking that Audrey still has access to her 'safe room'...and even though she will not be able to get 'under the bed'...you will still be able to see what she and Elliot do?)

My vote is for option 1 first. :clover:
Then 3 next.
and possibly 4 if needed.
(the worst that will happen is that Audrey's fear levels rise...and then it takes a bit longer...to get them back to comfortable levels.
The best that happens...is that Audrey...is not too bothered by it all...and she just has more time to observe Elliot's antics. Plus swipe and engage with him some more.)
There is actually many benefits to this, too.

(I'm going to answer more of your post above...just wanted to give you my two cents opinion, in this post.)
 
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Hello cat nap, glad to have your vote on this! It's been 3.5 weeks but yes, 2.5 if we discount the first week! I too wondered about the magical 3 days...:rolleyes:

Interesting thought about blocking off bed access! I could certainly try that.

I did film them today, but guess what, they were so well behaved it's a super boring video. Audrey sat in her bed washing herself and Elliot sat in loaf position and watched her from the doorway. 10 minutes of this and I stopped filming 😄
 

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I too wondered about the magical 3 days...:rolleyes:
" the magical 3 days...🙄"
Exactly! Magical 3 days...yes. :crackup::spew::lol:
(now, I at least I understand why some members come on to the Site, and mention it's been only 3 days...and the new cats are not getting along. Makes a bit more sense...when these videos are out there...mentioning the "magical three days". :blush:)

(On that note...and off topic...again...If you get a chance to watch a Disney movie called "Godmothered" with Jillian Bell...about a fairy god mother trying to grant a wish...then I highly recommend it...for a funny comedy movie. Nothing to do with cats though, or cat intros. There is a part where she changes a cat into a horse, though...so kind of cat-related.)
I did film them today, but guess what, they were so well behaved it's a super boring video. Audrey sat in her bed washing herself and Elliot sat in loaf position and watched her from the doorway. 10 minutes of this and I stopped filming
Lol. But of course they would do this to you...while you were trying to film some...action shots. :agree:
(10 minutes of filming....you have way more patience for filming than I do...my limit will now be the magical 3 minute number. :idea: :cool2: :tongue:.)
Seriously, though, keep the film on your computer...so in the future when they are being naughty...you can play this back for them...and quietly tell them..."remember this day...when you both were so well behaved".

This is such excellent news. :clap2:
Even if Elliot watched her from the doorway...at least he didn't bother her, ....while she washed.
It's cute to see when they 'study' each other. :)
They are slowly learning each of the other's cues, too.

I'm dying to find out what option you go for?
But I can wait.
They say patience is a virtue...or something like that. :clover: :cloud9:
But the happy excitement builds. :blush:
 
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Yeah, just looking back at the video I took and you'll see what I mean about Audrey on camera. Some of the freeze frames of her mid-lick are hilarious:
 

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I think her swiping in the bedroom was much the same as her swiping downstairs.She just doesn't want him to come closer than about 1ft. Looking again I would say the swipe in the video at 3.27 is probably about the same as hers, except that sometimes she does two or three strikes, not just one. And she will growl as well as hiss.
So Audrey has a 1ft rule, ..or bubble...that Elliot is not welcome in.
And she definitely gets her point across, with the multiple swipes.

But if Elliot is not hurt by them, and comes back fairly quick...then perhaps they are not really painful...but more rapid and directed in nature.
Sort of thinking that Audrey knows exactly where to hit, but also knows the exact force to use.

She still sounds agitated, but perhaps only setting up her 'ground rules' for him to respect.
Good news with Audrey is that she is starting to play a little bit again: she had basically stopped playing since we brought him home. And she is coming for morning and nighttime scratches too. So she is behaving a bit more normally. :woo:
:woo: Indeed!! Awesome! :jive:
Getting back to her normal self is a great thing to see. :yess:
I took him near her bed again this morning and he really kept his distance. Seemed more wary of her. I feel bad for the little guy that she's managed to make him more cautious, but perhaps that is a good thing? Anyway, she growled and hissed as usual but there was no swiping and they both took treats from me.
Yes, this is definitely a good thing that Elliot is more cautious of Audrey.
We so want to see this. :thumbsup:

This means that Elliot is learning what Audrey likes and does not like.
He is absolutely learning...and respecting her place...within the home.
What a smart little kitten. :catrub:
However, she is venturing downstairs less, and if she is downstairs and sees that he is loose, she basically just turns tail and goes up to the bedroom again. This is the question I have now. If I don't close our bedroom off and Elliot is loose (and especially if he annoys Audrey), she will just go under the bed. But if she goes under the bed I have to take Elliot away (in case he follows her under there and I can't separate them). So Audrey can effectively escape from him *whenever she likes*. She can just end their sessions together. Which will surely inhibit our progress? (Thinking of Art's metaphor - it's like just being able to say, Nope, I don't wanna see no spiders today, thanks very much!)
"Nope, I don't wanna see no spiders today, thanks very much!"
:lol: Okay, yes, I hear what you are saying.
You're right. The bedroom door should be closed...for awhile at least.
If Audrey still has 'escape routes' and 'cat perches', side tables, or sofas to jump up high on...then she still has places to retreat to.
I will try and get my octopus arms on today for filming :)
Yes, just don't tire out those 'octopus arms' too much...since you still need them for 'handing out treats' and patting, stroking, playing and such. :crackup:
Yes to stickers on the doors!! Actually now you mention it I walked into it myself a few weeks ago...
Oh, wow. That is good to know, since I thought I was the only one clumsy enough to do that...and not being very mindful and such.
I mean 'not good' that 'you walked into a glass door yourself, too'...just good to know I'm not the only one.
Yikes.That doesn't sound right either.
I hope you know what I mean. Maybe WE should just both be very, very mindful around 'glass'. :doh: :paperbag:
 

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Yeah, just looking back at the video I took and you'll see what I mean about Audrey on camera. Some of the freeze frames of her mid-lick are hilarious:
:crackup::spew::lol: :flail:You better NOT tell her that I am laughing, here.
It's not her fault, that the 'paparazzi humans' take these kinds of photos.

I actually like this photo.
Since it shows how close Elliot can get...and Audrey is not bothered.:thumbsup:
You are doing tremendously well, on your cat-to-kitten introductions. :cloud9:
 
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Thanks for the long reply cat nap. Had a long work day today plus kitten duties so pretty wiped out: the little devil will not get off the curtains!! I will update and reply tomorrow but we did have a good 1hr 15m session today without swipes. :)
 

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The 1hr 15min session sounds really good Moggielady.
Yes, people don't realize that it is total fun to watch the cats/kittens...but can be tiring, too. :seesaw:
Everyone needs a break...and to step away...and recharge.
(I'm actually not sure how people can do all the intros...and post things online,.. at the same time.
I would be totally wiped out...for sure. :thud:)

Don't worry about having to update daily. Just relax and recharge that energy of yours.:cloud9:
Only update when you feel like it. ...I really think that you are in the 'homestretch' with these intros...So they will be moving along at Audrey's own pace. :fish::clover::popcorn:

(I've also neglected some household chores so have extra loads of laundry to do, organize and sort things, and other chores...where I kind of do them for awhile...then reward myself ...by taking a break...and coming back to read some threads. I think I've been taking way more breaks than necessary, though. :spew:)

As for the curtains....Try some of that 'citrus smelling'...or 'bitter apple smelling' spray ...that they sell for kittens and puppies, not to chew or bite on wires. Just make sure the label says ...safe for cats, too. I've used it on wires...and it seemed to work...for a bit.
Someone, here, had also said to try using 'citrus peels'...but I have no idea how one would apply that to a curtain??:dunno:

Also, if you have one... maybe try to put a tall scratching post...near to the curtains...so Elliot is re-directed to that... and not the curtains.:greenpaw:
(my one previous cat, as a kitten, would always climb the shower curtains. I think he liked the feel and sound of them. We had to get extremely cheap curtains like they sell in dollar stores, and elsewhere,...until he grew out of it.)

There are some more ideas in this thread:
Curtain Climbing.....
(I particularly like the 'motion activated Santa'...but would be afraid...that it would cause too much fear in Elliot, right now,...since he is so young...and still getting used to his new home. Save this idea for later...if he does not learn...that kitten climbing curtains...is a real..."no".)

Have a relaxing night, and sleep well. :bluepaw:
 
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The 1hr 15min session sounds really good Moggielady.
Yes, people don't realize that it is total fun to watch the cats/kittens...but can be tiring, too. :seesaw:
Everyone needs a break...and to step away...and recharge.
(I'm actually not sure how people can do all the intros...and post things online,.. at the same time.
I would be totally wiped out...for sure. :thud:)

Don't worry about having to update daily. Just relax and recharge that energy of yours.:cloud9:
Only update when you feel like it. ...I really think that you are in the 'homestretch' with these intros...So they will be moving along at Audrey's own pace. :fish::clover::popcorn:

(I've also neglected some household chores so have extra loads of laundry to do, organize and sort things, and other chores...where I kind of do them for awhile...then reward myself ...by taking a break...and coming back to read some threads. I think I've been taking way more breaks than necessary, though. :spew:)

As for the curtains....Try some of that 'citrus smelling'...or 'bitter apple smelling' spray ...that they sell for kittens and puppies, not to chew or bite on wires. Just make sure the label says ...safe for cats, too. I've used it on wires...and it seemed to work...for a bit.
Someone, here, had also said to try using 'citrus peels'...but I have no idea how one would apply that to a curtain??:dunno:

Also, if you have one... maybe try to put a tall scratching post...near to the curtains...so Elliot is re-directed to that... and not the curtains.:greenpaw:
(my one previous cat, as a kitten, would always climb the shower curtains. I think he liked the feel and sound of them. We had to get extremely cheap curtains like they sell in dollar stores, and elsewhere,...until he grew out of it.)

There are some more ideas in this thread:
Curtain Climbing.....
(I particularly like the 'motion activated Santa'...but would be afraid...that it would cause too much fear in Elliot, right now,...since he is so young...and still getting used to his new home. Save this idea for later...if he does not learn...that kitten climbing curtains...is a real..."no".)

Have a relaxing night, and sleep well. :bluepaw:
That's funny about your cat on the shower curtains! Must have been quite the shock if you were mid-shower and little claws suddenly appeared! OK, I've moved a scratching post close to the curtain he is obsessed with, and if that doesn't help then I will order some of that spray...

Today they had about 45 mins together downstairs. When he first came into the room where Audrey was (up on her windowsill) she did not immediately growl, like she always does: instead she made the chattery noise she makes at the birds through the window. Strange but I'll take that as a good thing. He sat quietly on the floor and watched her for a while. Then he tried to creep closer, so of course she hissed and growled. He backed down. Then he went off into another room so I followed and played with him in there for a while. Back and forth like this, playing a bit, going back to check on Audrey. He is definitely learning her boundaries but also can't keep away from her, he is so curious.

Session ended when he was very bouncy from playing with the wand toy and went bouncing right over to her and she leaned down and swatted him with a yowly sort of growl. I picked him up then and let her go upstairs. She was ready to go upstairs at this point, she had moved herself to the windowsill near the closed door, so that probably didn't help.

In terms of the bed situation, I have found that if Audrey is in HER bed on the floor, and Elliot is nearby, she doesn't get out of it. She feels quite secure there. So she isn't creeping under OUR bed while he is around. I figure if I monitor them closely in the bedroom then it's OK for her to just sit where she is and he can explore around her.

And when they are downstairs, they can be just downstairs, with the door to the stairway shut.

The challenge will come when I give them free run of the whole house at once, because I think if she sets off upstairs Elliot will chase her and at that point she will shoot under our bed. But they're not ready for whole house access yet I don't think.

They are so funny the way they walk really slowly around each other. Very very slow movements. Thinking about the video you recommended I guess that means they are trying not to escalate the tension?

On an entirely unrelated subject, I have noticed that Elliot has a patch of scaly skin on his spine at the base of his tail :( Poor little guy. There is no redness or scabbing, it's just an oval of white flaky skin, a bit like a callus. I noticed him grooming that spot a couple of times today but otherwise he seems totally fine and it doesn't seem to hurt him at all. He is due to be neutered on 1st Feb so he will see the vet then but I am wondering whether I need to call them about this separately.

Good luck with your laundry piles. I have quite the heap to do as well!
 

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That's funny about your cat on the shower curtains! Must have been quite the shock if you were mid-shower and little claws suddenly appeared! OK, I've moved a scratching post close to the curtain he is obsessed with, and if that doesn't help then I will order some of that spray...
" Must have been quite the shock if you were mid-shower and little claws suddenly appeared!"
Ohhh, noooo. :crackup: If that were ever to happen, I'd probably scream.:jawdrop: That reminds me slightly of the 'shower scene' in "Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho"....but of course in a cuter way....with little claws coming at you. :bluepaw:
Luckily, my shower door is always closed and locked while I'm taking a shower, ...so no cats all. :paranoid: :blush:
Today they had about 45 mins together downstairs. When he first came into the room where Audrey was (up on her windowsill) she did not immediately growl, like she always does: instead she made the chattery noise she makes at the birds through the window. Strange but I'll take that as a good thing. He sat quietly on the floor and watched her for a while. Then he tried to creep closer, so of course she hissed and growled. He backed down. Then he went off into another room so I followed and played with him in there for a while. Back and forth like this, playing a bit, going back to check on Audrey. He is definitely learning her boundaries but also can't keep away from her, he is so curious.

Session ended when he was very bouncy from playing with the wand toy and went bouncing right over to her and she leaned down and swatted him with a yowly sort of growl. I picked him up then and let her go upstairs. She was ready to go upstairs at this point, she had moved herself to the windowsill near the closed door, so that probably didn't help.
I think it went quite well.

Sounds like Audrey was distracted with the outside birds, ...and made those 'chattery' sounds, like cats often do.
(When I first heard, and saw, my cat do that...I was a bit surprised. I didn't know it was in direct response to her seeing birds outside the window. Almost like an 'automatic robotic response'. It was strange hearing, and seeing, the chattering for the first time. My cat does not do it much, though.)

I wonder if Elliot was fascinated by the chattering, too.
He probably wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

I'm glad that he is not afraid of her, and is so curious, ...since I think this is what will win Audrey over to him.
His persistence will wear her down.
She will just have to give in to his cuteness...of course...in her own time...when she feels that he has learned 'how to behave well' and 'listen to all her cues'.

It is so interesting how cats communicate with each other.
Not just through verbal yowls, or growls or hisses.
But through slight body movements.
Things that we humans would not even notice.
Smells they give off, and then the obvious movements, too,...the swiping, running, chasing.
The whole process 'in getting to know one another'...and telling the 'other cat what they like...and what they don't like'.
It's amazing to see how they do this.
In terms of the bed situation, I have found that if Audrey is in HER bed on the floor, and Elliot is nearby, she doesn't get out of it. She feels quite secure there. So she isn't creeping under OUR bed while he is around. I figure if I monitor them closely in the bedroom then it's OK for her to just sit where she is and he can explore around her.

And when they are downstairs, they can be just downstairs, with the door to the stairway shut.
It's really a good sign that Audrey can be at the same level as Elliot...(eg, on the floor)...and feel no need to hide under the bed, or jump up on the bed...to get away from Elliot.
Even if HER bed is her security, and her space,...she still sounds okay for him to ...explore around.

She sounds amazing, too.
No cat would ever just let another cat, or kitten,... just wander around in front of her....if she was so bothered by his presence.
And movement of a cat would often trigger a response...so it's really good that Audrey seems relaxed...in her own cat-bed.
The challenge will come when I give them free run of the whole house at once, because I think if she sets off upstairs Elliot will chase her and at that point she will shoot under our bed. But they're not ready for whole house access yet I don't think.
What you are doing now, with all the interactions...up until this point...is you are actually building up Audrey's Trust...in Elliot...and you are allowing her to set the pace.
Plus allowing her to teach him.

Even if Elliot chases her up the stairs later....Audrey won't be so upset, annoyed, or fearful.
(Okay, maybe she will be a bit annoyed)...but not to the same degree...as if it were the first few times that he's chased after her...up the stairs. Audrey will probably expect Elliot to do that....so it won't come as a huge big surprise.

Elliot's movements are just becoming much more familiar to Audrey, now.
Not so erratic, and crazy looking...as the first time she saw him.
Elliot is probably trying to be a bit more careful, too, around her....which is awesome to see.
They are so funny the way they walk really slowly around each other. Very very slow movements. Thinking about the video you recommended I guess that means they are trying not to escalate the tension?
Haha. Yes, Exactly...cats are amazing creatures...and you are so, so right....they are 'trying not to escalate the tension'.
When they do that 'slow motion movements' ...it is hilarious to see. :blush:
Like walking on eggshells.
(Reminds me of some movies...where the actors 'tip toe around'....so as not to disturb someone sleeping,...or steal things in a silent, but ultra slow fashion.)

Because cats are so attune...to movements and motion...I guess it is exactly because of this that they move so slow...with a 'potential threat' near by.
"not to escalate the tension"...that makes total sense.:clover:
On an entirely unrelated subject, I have noticed that Elliot has a patch of scaly skin on his spine at the base of his tail :( Poor little guy. There is no redness or scabbing, it's just an oval of white flaky skin, a bit like a callus. I noticed him grooming that spot a couple of times today but otherwise he seems totally fine and it doesn't seem to hurt him at all. He is due to be neutered on 1st Feb so he will see the vet then but I am wondering whether I need to call them about this separately.
I'm not sure what that could be.
(Older animals get things like seborrhea, and bumps, lumps, etc...but I'm not sure if I ever noticed anything in kittens like this.)

Could you take a few photos of it,...and send them to your Vet?
(not sure if they do look at photos, or would want you to bring him in...which is a pain)
I'd phone them, just to be sure...and ask if you can send them an Email photo?

In the meantime, it's probably okay to place a dab of olive or vegetable on it, ...to see if it helps it at all.
I would think that vegetable oil would be okay if licked...but maybe still ask the Vet...just in case it's not recommended.
Good luck with your laundry piles. I have quite the heap to do as well!
Thanks. Did 3 loads yesterday...so I am ahead of the curve.

Take care, and rest up.
I'm always going to smile now...at your phrase of..."kitten duty"....it sounds like a good relaxing task...but ends up being tiring, ...still way, way better than folding laundry, though.:thumbsup:
 
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I wonder if Elliot was fascinated by the chattering, too.
He probably wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

I'm glad that he is not afraid of her, and is so curious, ...since I think this is what will win Audrey over to him.
His persistence will wear her down.
She will just have to give in to his cuteness...of course...in her own time...when she feels that he has learned 'how to behave well' and 'listen to all her cues'.

It is so interesting how cats communicate with each other.
Not just through verbal yowls, or growls or hisses.
But through slight body movements.
Things that we humans would not even notice.
Smells they give off, and then the obvious movements, too,...the swiping, running, chasing.
The whole process 'in getting to know one another'...and telling the 'other cat what they like...and what they don't like'.
It's amazing to see how they do this.

It's really a good sign that Audrey can be at the same level as Elliot...(eg, on the floor)...and feel no need to hide under the bed, or jump up on the bed...to get away from Elliot.
Even if HER bed is her security, and her space,...she still sounds okay for him to ...explore around.

She sounds amazing, too.
No cat would ever just let another cat, or kitten,... just wander around in front of her....if she was so bothered by his presence.
And movement of a cat would often trigger a response...so it's really good that Audrey seems relaxed...in her own cat-bed.

What you are doing now, with all the interactions...up until this point...is you are actually building up Audrey's Trust...in Elliot...and you are allowing her to set the pace.
Plus allowing her to teach him.

Even if Elliot chases her up the stairs later....Audrey won't be so upset, annoyed, or fearful.
(Okay, maybe she will be a bit annoyed)...but not to the same degree...as if it were the first few times that he's chased after her...up the stairs. Audrey will probably expect Elliot to do that....so it won't come as a huge big surprise.

Elliot's movements are just becoming much more familiar to Audrey, now.
Not so erratic, and crazy looking...as the first time she saw him.
Elliot is probably trying to be a bit more careful, too, around her....which is awesome to see.
Thanks cat nap! 😄 I was worried she was going to be an intractably grizzly old lady with him, but I think that slowly slowly slowly she is calming down and I am very proud of her. Not to mention relieved.

Today she ate her breakfast with Elliot sitting nearby. I got a video of it. The way she tries to keep growling whilst also chomping her biscuits is adorable (of course I think that!) And he is very good and doesn't try to come too close, though he clearly wants to... Unfortunately I can't get the video to upload but here is another screenshot.

She did also swat him a couple of times this morning, but not whilst she was eating! They had an hour together and there were three swats, I think, in all, when he just couldn't keep his distance any longer. But he came back for more immediately so clearly they were not hard/painful.
 

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Thanks cat nap! 😄 I was worried she was going to be an intractably grizzly old lady with him, but I think that slowly slowly slowly she is calming down and I am very proud of her. Not to mention relieved.
"I was worried she was going to be an intractably grizzly old lady with him,"
:blush: No, highly doubtful...on the 'intractably grizzly old lady with him' part...:spew::lol:

But understandable about the worries...since when cats are being introduced...and even afterwards...the sounds they make...especially the 'loud yowling, fast hisses, and growls', not to mention the 'fast swipes, swats, strikes'...with various postures and movements...we would all think that 'these two little beings are never going to get along'...since it sounds worse than it actually is.

All part of the cat's process of Acceptance of a 'perceived threat' into their territory. (The Resident cat does not actually know that the New cat or kitten is not a threat.)

Remember what you wrote on lily's thread...."she just instinctively wants to be sure that her food and water and litter tray are still hers, and eventually she will realise that and calm down. "
So true,..and so to the point.
Plus you're still showing Audrey Love...by Playing and Spending time with her,...allowing her space and time,...and freedom to Express herself, too.

I think cats sometimes increase some of their vocalizations, ...just to make it perfectly clear that the other cat hears them, and will back off.
(It's like putting up signs. First they start with small signs like lower hisses and growls...then move on to louder sounds to make the point stand out more. At the same time, they have to use swipes, strikes and bats...since their space is being invaded...and obviously the growls, hisses and yowling was ignored.)
Today she ate her breakfast with Elliot sitting nearby. I got a video of it. The way she tries to keep growling whilst also chomping her biscuits is adorable (of course I think that!) And he is very good and doesn't try to come too close, though he clearly wants to... Unfortunately I can't get the video to upload but here is another screenshot.
Yay! :jive:
The screenshot looks amazing.
Funny how smart Elliot is, in using the wall as protection for his back, and at the same time...he looks to be trying to use that 'fabric door stop' or 'long cat toy'...for some added protection, too,....just in case Audrey swings her head his way. :blush:

I don't blame Audrey for growling while eating. :biggrin:
Who would want someone sneaking up on you and perhaps stealing your good food, ...or else bothering you...by staring at you while you're eating.

**Uploading videos does seem to have certain requirements...and very small limits.
I think...something like 25mb...which seems very, very short for a video..probably due to the limited space on the servers.. .and not sure which format types are taken...(eg...mp4 and not avi?)

Most people, I think....upload their videos to outside platforms...like youtube, daily motion, vimeo..(even Gif sites, like giphy or imgur)...but I think Youtube is the most popular one.
Then they Embed their videos, here.
How To Upload And Add Videos To Your Posts – TheCatSite Articles
Embed videos
She did also swat him a couple of times this morning, but not whilst she was eating! They had an hour together and there were three swats, I think, in all, when he just couldn't keep his distance any longer. But he came back for more immediately so clearly they were not hard/painful.
Yes. Coming back immediately...definitely a good sign. Go team Elliot! :yess:
Lessening of the 'intensity' is always what we want to see. Go team Audrey. :cheerleader:
 
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"I was worried she was going to be an intractably grizzly old lady with him,"
:blush: No, highly doubtful...on the 'intractably grizzly old lady with him' part...:spew::lol:

But understandable about the worries...since when cats are being introduced...and even afterwards...the sounds they make...especially the 'loud yowling, fast hisses, and growls', not to mention the 'fast swipes, swats, strikes'...with various postures and movements...we would all think that 'these two little beings are never going to get along'...since it sounds worse than it actually is.

I think cats sometimes increase some of their vocalizations, ...just to make it perfectly clear that the other cat hears them, and will back off.
(It's like putting up signs. First they start with small signs like lower hisses and growls...then move on to louder sounds to make the point stand out more. At the same time, they have to use swipes, strikes and bats...since their space is being invaded...and obviously the growls, hisses and yowling was ignored.)
Yes, there is definitely a range of volumes in use here, and sometimes I just think, Jesus, Audrey has been growling for what feels like half an hour, is she really OK? But then I look at her and half the time she is watching birds out of the window and not even noticing when Elliot creeps a bit closer!

I am really trying not to worry as much. It's possible now for me to be in the next room and listen out for them. She might swat but I don't feel like she is going to *attack* him. Not that I am being *too relaxed* about it yet! They are definitely still supervised when they are together, but I just don't need to have my eyes on them every single second.

This morning he jumped up on the windowsill 3ft away from her and she didn't growl for once. Then they just both watched the birds for a while. :)

Yay! :jive:
The screenshot looks amazing.
Funny how smart Elliot is, in using the wall as protection for his back, and at the same time...he looks to be trying to use that 'fabric door stop' or 'long cat toy'...for some added protection, too,....just in case Audrey swings her head his way. :blush:
LOL, it's a door stop. Though considering how massive male ragdolls can get, who knows, maybe one day Elliot will be batting it around and wrestling with it?!

He is definitely very careful with how he presents himself to her. Likes to find something to hide behind if possible: a shoe, a pile of books...

I don't blame Audrey for growling while eating. :biggrin:
Who would want someone sneaking up on you and perhaps stealing your good food, ...or else bothering you...by staring at you while you're eating.
Well when you put it that way - it's just plain rude, isn't it? Although she has been stealing his food too. They are both covetous and a bit greedy. Perhaps it will be something they can bond over. Midnight raids on the snack cupboard requiring two sets of paws.

**Uploading videos does seem to have certain requirements...and very small limits.
I think...something like 25mb...which seems very, very short for a video..probably due to the limited space on the servers.. .and not sure which format types are taken...(eg...mp4 and not avi?)

Most people, I think....upload their videos to outside platforms...like youtube, daily motion, vimeo..(even Gif sites, like giphy or imgur)...but I think Youtube is the most popular one.
I did have a look at the instructions but I think unless I urgently need a second opinion on an interaction between them, than I am not going to start messing around with YouTube and so on!

Yes. Coming back immediately...definitely a good sign. Go team Elliot! :yess:
Lessening of the 'intensity' is always what we want to see. Go team Audrey. :cheerleader:
LOL, loving the little cheerleaders here. Thank you for that :)
 

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Yes, there is definitely a range of volumes in use here, and sometimes I just think, Jesus, Audrey has been growling for what feels like half an hour, is she really OK? But then I look at her and half the time she is watching birds out of the window and not even noticing when Elliot creeps a bit closer!
(Sounds like Audrey is having serious 'discussions' with her bird friends.
She's probably commiserating with them, with all that chattering, growling and grumbling,...explaining all the things she has to put up with the little Elliot around.) :reddragonfly: :paranoid:
(As long as when you do see her,...she doesn't suddenly stop growling while you are in the room, and continue with her 'bird friends'...when you exit the room. Then you know she will be 'talking' about you, too.) :blush: :eek2: :nono: :wink:

Seriously, though,...I figure when you're in the midst of the cat intros...then time sees to drag on...like forever.
But you'll look back...and think..."that wasn't so bad"..."it went quick...in the big scheme of things". Then you'll probably get all nostalgic and stuff.

In the future, your cats will probably still have these 'loud moments' when you'll be thinking, "ohh, gawd,..what are they up to now??"...But it will be less frequent...and not so bothersome.
You'll become so relaxed and nonchalant, that any sound from them...won't really phase you.
Basically, you just learn what is normal for them...and when they have their rough, playful moments,...the cats have already learned, what is allowed and what is not.

(My cats at 5.5 yrs old, even though they don't play like they did as kittens, rough and tumble,...still have their moments...when male Tripp corners female Tepaul, and she hisses, growls and sometimes yowls, screeches. They each know how to hold their own ground, and stand up to each other,...so I don't tend to worry at all. Tepaul is often loud, and can really get Tripp back,...even the next day with a swat across the face...for something he had done previously.)
I am really trying not to worry as much. It's possible now for me to be in the next room and listen out for them. She might swat but I don't feel like she is going to *attack* him. Not that I am being *too relaxed* about it yet! They are definitely still supervised when they are together, but I just don't need to have my eyes on them every single second.

This morning he jumped up on the windowsill 3ft away from her and she didn't growl for once. Then they just both watched the birds for a while. :)
Excellent!
"...but I just don't need to have my eyes on them every single second."
That attitude is the way to be.

The cats will pick up on you being more relaxed.
Go team MoggieLady! :clap::jive::cheerleader:(I think I forgot about
your team...yesterday..and since you said you did like the cheerleaders...then I'll remember to put in some extra ones, too.):blush: :cheerleader::goldstar::hangin:
LOL, it's a door stop. Though considering how massive male ragdolls can get, who knows, maybe one day Elliot will be batting it around and wrestling with it?!

He is definitely very careful with how he presents himself to her. Likes to find something to hide behind if possible: a shoe, a pile of books...
Yes, I could definitely see Elliot playing and batting around with that door stop.
Probably moving it around from place to place. yikes. :lol:

Shoes and books are quite good ideas for hiding behind.
I remember that members also used empty cardboard boxes, and huge kraft paper crinkles, and horizontal cardboard scratching posts...as favourites, too. Not quite sure how the humans would walk around this huge 'cat obstacle course' ...but the cats sure liked it.
(My cats do still like cardboard boxes...but act quite surprised...if it suddenly appears in the middle of the living room.)
Well when you put it that way - it's just plain rude, isn't it? Although she has been stealing his food too. They are both covetous and a bit greedy. Perhaps it will be something they can bond over. Midnight raids on the snack cupboard requiring two sets of paws.

"Midnight raids on the snack cupboard requiring two sets of paws."
Lol. That will be adorable. :crackup:
You'll have to get out your "CSI Miami special light"...to examine all the paw prints.
Or take a lesson from 'agatha christie's miss marple or hercule poirot'...to 'solve the case of the stolen Cat snacks'.
I can see both cats... pointing the blame at each other. :tabbycat::gingercat: :popcorn: :thumbsup: :lol:
I did have a look at the instructions but I think unless I urgently need a second opinion on an interaction between them, than I am not going to start messing around with YouTube and so on!
I hear you on that.
And no, You won't need a second opinion, on Elliot and Audrey's interactions.
Your descriptions are all detailed and sound fine. :)

Plus, you know what you are doing,...so just by watching the videos back for yourself,...you know what to look for.

(Probably less of this from Audrey...:eviltongue::eviltongue::eviltongue:...and more of this...:salam:) (Sorry, I couldn't resist. The "tongue-out smileys"...just reminded me of the 'mid-lick screenshot of Audrey'...that the paparazzi human posted. Lol.
Please don't tell Audrey about this post..since I fear she will probably chew the computer wires...
...and again...don't tell Audrey...that that photo...still makes me laugh.) :lol:

**I find it a bit confusing with uploading videos...because all the extra steps involved...or the extra 'perceived' work, that I'd have to do, too. I don't think I'd ever upload to youtube, either,...due to privacy and such...

But I am going to try and see ...if I can edit some of my 'smartphone videos,'...which I finally noticed are mp4's...and see if I can upload directly from my computer.
I just don't really know how to "edit down my videos"...so that will probably take me 'another million years' to figure out.:think::stars::lol:
I'll just surf online...and find out what others do.

It's fun to learn new things...but I am sometimes quite lazy, disorganized, and tend to procrastinate...alot. :paperbag:
(It would be nice if one day...they improved...Alexa, siri or Google voice commands...to just listen to our voices...and do exactly what we want.) Of course, we'd probably just get alexa or google voice...to 'introduce our cats for us, too.'...so on second thought...not such a good idea. :doh: :rolleyes2: :wink:
 
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(Sounds like Audrey is having serious 'discussions' with her bird friends.
She's probably commiserating with them, with all that chattering, growling and grumbling,...explaining all the things she has to put up with the little Elliot around.) :reddragonfly: :paranoid:
(As long as when you do see her,...she doesn't suddenly stop growling while you are in the room, and continue with her 'bird friends'...when you exit the room. Then you know she will be 'talking' about you, too.) :blush: :eek2: :nono: :wink:

Seriously, though,...I figure when you're in the midst of the cat intros...then time sees to drag on...like forever.
But you'll look back...and think..."that wasn't so bad"..."it went quick...in the big scheme of things". Then you'll probably get all nostalgic and stuff.

In the future, your cats will probably still have these 'loud moments' when you'll be thinking, "ohh, gawd,..what are they up to now??"...But it will be less frequent...and not so bothersome.
You'll become so relaxed and nonchalant, that any sound from them...won't really phase you.
Basically, you just learn what is normal for them...and when they have their rough, playful moments,...the cats have already learned, what is allowed and what is not.

(My cats at 5.5 yrs old, even though they don't play like they did as kittens, rough and tumble,...still have their moments...when male Tripp corners female Tepaul, and she hisses, growls and sometimes yowls, screeches. They each know how to hold their own ground, and stand up to each other,...so I don't tend to worry at all. Tepaul is often loud, and can really get Tripp back,...even the next day with a swat across the face...for something he had done previously.)

Excellent!
"...but I just don't need to have my eyes on them every single second."
That attitude is the way to be.

The cats will pick up on you being more relaxed.
Go team MoggieLady! :clap::jive::cheerleader:(I think I forgot about
your team...yesterday..and since you said you did like the cheerleaders...then I'll remember to put in some extra ones, too.):blush: :cheerleader::goldstar::hangin:

Yes, I could definitely see Elliot playing and batting around with that door stop.
Probably moving it around from place to place. yikes. :lol:

Shoes and books are quite good ideas for hiding behind.
I remember that members also used empty cardboard boxes, and huge kraft paper crinkles, and horizontal cardboard scratching posts...as favourites, too. Not quite sure how the humans would walk around this huge 'cat obstacle course' ...but the cats sure liked it.
(My cats do still like cardboard boxes...but act quite surprised...if it suddenly appears in the middle of the living room.)

"Midnight raids on the snack cupboard requiring two sets of paws."
Lol. That will be adorable. :crackup:
You'll have to get out your "CSI Miami special light"...to examine all the paw prints.
Or take a lesson from 'agatha christie's miss marple or hercule poirot'...to 'solve the case of the stolen Cat snacks'.
I can see both cats... pointing the blame at each other. :tabbycat::gingercat: :popcorn: :thumbsup: :lol:

I hear you on that.
And no, You won't need a second opinion, on Elliot and Audrey's interactions.
Your descriptions are all detailed and sound fine. :)

Plus, you know what you are doing,...so just by watching the videos back for yourself,...you know what to look for.

(Probably less of this from Audrey...:eviltongue::eviltongue::eviltongue:...and more of this...:salam:) (Sorry, I couldn't resist. The "tongue-out smileys"...just reminded me of the 'mid-lick screenshot of Audrey'...that the paparazzi human posted. Lol.
Please don't tell Audrey about this post..since I fear she will probably chew the computer wires...
...and again...don't tell Audrey...that that photo...still makes me laugh.) :lol:

**I find it a bit confusing with uploading videos...because all the extra steps involved...or the extra 'perceived' work, that I'd have to do, too. I don't think I'd ever upload to youtube, either,...due to privacy and such...

But I am going to try and see ...if I can edit some of my 'smartphone videos,'...which I finally noticed are mp4's...and see if I can upload directly from my computer.
I just don't really know how to "edit down my videos"...so that will probably take me 'another million years' to figure out.:think::stars::lol:
I'll just surf online...and find out what others do.

It's fun to learn new things...but I am sometimes quite lazy, disorganized, and tend to procrastinate...alot. :paperbag:
(It would be nice if one day...they improved...Alexa, siri or Google voice commands...to just listen to our voices...and do exactly what we want.) Of course, we'd probably just get alexa or google voice...to 'introduce our cats for us, too.'...so on second thought...not such a good idea. :doh: :rolleyes2: :wink:
LOL cat nap, that photo still makes me laugh too. She is a majestic creature IRL, but on film...

Elliot cornered her today, in his eagerness to play with her, which she is still refusing to do. He got a couple of bonks on the head for his trouble. Actually she swatted me at one point, and I was relieved to find that her claws were retracted (for myself as well as for him!) But later on they managed to both sit on the same sofa (Audrey up on the back, Elliot on the seat) without any growls for a few minutes straight. And they ate their breakfast together this morning, so... ups and downs, I'd say. Still maxing out at 1 hour together downstairs before I let Audrey head up to sleep.

It's really good to hear about Tripp and Tepaul and how they still corner each other sometimes and have their little spats. Makes it all seem more normal. I guess we are just used to being a one-cat household since neither of us have owned multiple cats before, so the interaction aspect of this is very new.

I just feel bad for the little guy that he can't wander the house freely yet, especially at night: Audrey sleeps in our room, whereas we have to put him to bed separately in his safe room and leave him there till the morning. Try to tell myself he is safe and cosy in there, and it's not like he's scratching at the door and crying or anything (at least not until my alarm goes off in the morning!) - but it still breaks my heart to leave him alone like that 😿
 

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LOL cat nap, that photo still makes me laugh too. She is a majestic creature IRL, but on film...
Your first photo of Audrey..on the stairs...was very good, though. So fluffy. :blackcat:
You did what I read about...have a black cat in front of a light background.

Yes, I totally agree. They are all majestic creatures IRL...:catrub:
I'm thinking it's not our cats' fault...that their kind humans...are not able to properly take a good photo of them...with proper lighting...background and such.
(I'm actually only talking about myself, here,...since I have two black cats and a black dog...I am very fond of black, obviously,...but could not take a decent photo...if it had to save my life.) :hmmm: :whistle:
Elliot cornered her today, in his eagerness to play with her, which she is still refusing to do. He got a couple of bonks on the head for his trouble. Actually she swatted me at one point, and I was relieved to find that her claws were retracted (for myself as well as for him!) But later on they managed to both sit on the same sofa (Audrey up on the back, Elliot on the seat) without any growls for a few minutes straight. And they ate their breakfast together this morning, so... ups and downs, I'd say. Still maxing out at 1 hour together downstairs before I let Audrey head up to sleep.
Yeah, cat introductions...are never linear....always ups and downs.
Still sounds like a lot of progress, though.
Elliot approaching Audrey, cornering, getting a few hits to the head.

Strange that Audrey swatted you...I'm wondering if it were a bit of 're-directed aggression'...or she was not too fond of 'team moggielady'...at that particular moment.

I find it fantastic when the cats do retract their claws ..while swiping or playing.
(my Tripp does it better than Tepaul...but just the other day...I was playing with him...with my hand under a soft blanket...and he did not retract. My fault..but "ouch,"...felt like a small paper-cut. Put under some cold and lukewarm water...and all healed today...so it's all good. )

It also sounds kind of amazing ...that both were able to sit ...on the same sofa...for a few minutes.
Seems like Audrey...does like to sit ...a bit higher than Elliot.
Must be a safer...and better vantage point.
I just feel bad for the little guy that he can't wander the house freely yet, especially at night: Audrey sleeps in our room, whereas we have to put him to bed separately in his safe room and leave him there till the morning. Try to tell myself he is safe and cosy in there, and it's not like he's scratching at the door and crying or anything (at least not until my alarm goes off in the morning!) - but it still breaks my heart to leave him alone like that 😿
Well, it's not like you're shutting him away...in some sort of dungeon...or something.:headshake: :alright:
He's still a small kitten...who does need his rest...and sleep.
Plus...you get to sleep and rest...for a whole night...knowing...he is safe.:hugs:
You need that rest...and energy...for all these kitten-to-cat intros.
(Many members...have done this...and their kittens turned out fine.)

Think of it...as though you are teaching him some patience, too.
You can always...switch the cats to different rooms later...but for now it seems okay.
Besides...the way things are going...it won't be long...until he gets free roam of the house. :bluepaw:
 

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Elliot cornered her today, in his eagerness to play with her, which she is still refusing to do. He got a couple of bonks on the head for his trouble. Actually she swatted me at one point, and I was relieved to find that her claws were retracted (for myself as well as for him!) But later on they managed to both sit on the same sofa (Audrey up on the back, Elliot on the seat) without any growls for a few minutes straight. And they ate their breakfast together this morning, so... ups and downs, I'd say. Still maxing out at 1 hour together downstairs before I let Audrey head up to sleep.
Hi M Moggielady ...just wondering how Audrey and Elliot are doing?

(I really, really, wanted to ask for an update...this past wednesday...since for me...it felt like 3 weeks...had gone by from the last update...and then I looked at the date of your last post...and it was only saturday...so basically ...it was only 3 days. :hmmm: :confused2:
Omg...I realized that I am totally addicted to your thread...and to Audrey and Elliot...which is okay...since that often happens to me, when I find cat intros so fascinating. No two intros are ever alike. But then I realized ...that I have to learn to have more and more patience...especially when Patience is the key....for doing cat intros...in the first place. :clover: Yikes. I'm not too good at this part, yet. :blush:)
 
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Oh cat nap, It's so nice that you want an update! I am happy to give one, though I've been quieter because things generally have been OK this past week: not great, not bad, just muddling along.

We have got them up to 2 hours in the same space (downstairs of the house), usually first thing in the morning. They will eat their breakfasts near each other, though Audrey still growls while eating, and sometimes Elliot finishes first and then rushes at her, at which point she hisses, growls, and slinks off.

Elliot has peed in Audrey's litter a few times and it hasn't seemed to bother her ;)

She still swipes and swats him when he comes too near and this can get a bit yowly and alarming when they are both on the floor and he has backed her into a corner - so I would either shoo him away at that point, or shake the treat bag and give them both some treats. They will sit near each other and eat treats, still with growling though.

Some good things I would say: yesterday she wandered into the room and he was standing right there and she didn't growl at all. She walked past him like 1ft away and nothing.

She has voluntarily entered a room where he is playing a couple of times. She is showing a small amount of interest in him. Very small, but I'll take it.

She continues to act a little bit more like herself when we are alone. She sat with us, on my partner's lap, and watched half a movie the other night for the first time since Elliot arrived. I joked it was because it was the first non-trashy movie we had watched in ages, and she was like, 'Finally, they put a decent piece of cinema on!' 😄

He chased her under the bed once, and though nothing terrible happened, he went under there after her and she hated that and yowled at him and swatted him under there, so I took him away as soon as he came out.

But we also had a peaceful half hour the other day where HE was under the bed, watching her, and she was sleeping in HER bed on the floor. Mostly sleeping: half an eye on him. But quiet.

I feel like we will get there in time, but I also feel a consistent level of stress about him not being able to come and go freely and her not being comfortable, and also about having to supervise SO MUCH. Not just when he's with her: he is a devil with any cabling (though we have done out best to hide it), any little bit of anything dropped on the floor he will eat, he still climbs the curtains sometimes, and he will try and get into the fridge, under the dishwasher, etc. etc. if we are not vigilant with closing doors.

I know 100% that this is what we signed up for and we don't regret having him whatsoever but it's just... sigh. It is a lot! I am venting now... Better stop.

He is being neutered this coming week so I am curious to see how that will affect his behaviour, if at all, and trying not to worry too much about vet smell on him and how Audrey will react!
 
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Moggielady

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Meant to say, I do wonder if they need more time together per day. More than 2hours in the morning and 1 hour in the evening. But I don't know how to do that without disrupting Audrey's sleep patterns: she often likes to sleep right through the day from like 10am to 8pm!
 
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