New Cat Terrified Again

lola1962

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I am so glad that I found this site!  My kitties have been with us for 1 month now, they are about 6 months old. The Male, Max is a joy. He is fun and affectionate.  They were found abandoned at about 2 months old and lived with a foster family.  His sister, Ruby is completely scared of everything.  She has been running from my husband since day one.  

After 3 weeks she slowly started to feel comfortable with me.  I was patient and would sit quietly during meals.  She eventually began eating with me there, let me pat her AND finally brush up against me and purr. 

Here is the big problem:  They had a vet appointment last week and when I tried to lift her into the carrier she FREAKED OUT!!  My hands were covered in blood.  I ended up just taking Max to the vet and I cried like a baby that I had upset Ruby.  Well, it seems all of my hard work earning her trust for 3 weeks has gone out the door.  She now runs from me, too.  At meal time, she no longer will eat if I am sitting there.  This situation is killing me !  It breaks my heart that she is so scared.  Will she ever trust me again?  The carrier event happened last Thursday.  Any advice?

Thanks
 
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catpack

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Sometimes it can be beneficial to put a timid cat in a small space without any hiding places you do not have easy access to.

I have used a bathroom, small bedroom (without any furniture to hide under/behind,) as well as a large dog crate. Do make sure to provide boxes or safe accessible places for kitty to hide. Using Gerber baby food (chicken or turkey) as a treat during this time can work wonders as well. It's hard to build trust with a cat that can easily runaway or can hide in unreachable places. Go slow. Sitting and reading a book out loud in the room is a great way to start.

You can also check out the treads on socializing a feral cat/kitten to get some more suggestions.
 
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lola1962

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Yes, that is how I started out with her.  I kept her in a small space and she gradually began to trust me.  Since she has been running and hiding, I can't get to her.  UGH!  She will not even eat with me present.  I know I have a long road ahead of me.  
 

lamiatron

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i had to do the extreme, and tape the sides of my bed with garbage bags, so my Jet couldn't hide under there, and i kept her to one room for a VERY long time. even today when i leave the door open to my bed room, rarely will she venture out, and i've had her for close to 3 months now. 

this may seem a bit extreme, but i've done this and it has helped me to bond with Jet. 

i would pretty much starve her. not really, but i wouldn't give her food for a long time. to the point, that when i finally brought her food, she was crazy about eating and did not care if i was right there sitting next to her, petting her and talking to her. eventually this led to her trusting me while she was eating. then that eventually led to me feeding her at her usual times with my other cat, and her not running off while i sit next to her. every time i feed her, i sick next to her, or behind her, and pet her gently, and praise her. she now welcomes the pets while she eats by purring and having her tail up and saying back and forth gently. 

she's still a work in progress...

i would suggest keeping her in a smaller room where she has no place to hide for as long as she needs. leave the door open and see if SHE wants to explore the rest of the house, if not, just keep her there. and i would recommend the starving method and then bringing her food. it has helped me a lot. I've been doing it for almost 3 months, and i make my boyfriend do it whenever he is there.
 
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lola1962

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That makes sense to withhold food.  I am going to start doing that.  When she began to trust me at first, it was at meal time.  Thanks Lamiatron!
 

oneandahalfcats

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Withholding food from a cat is NEVER a sensible, safe thing to do! There is a very obvious reason for her mistrust due to the recent vet visit. It's unfortunate that she reacted so badly as the result of trying to get her into the carrier, but using food to modify or control her behavior is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to gain your cat's trust again, make the efforts required. This includes taking the time to re-introduce her to the cat carrier properly. If you don't, you will continue to experience these problems and it will be a never-ending cycle of fear and mistrust.

Please re-think this.
 
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lamiatron

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@oneandahalfcats  

i'm not starving my cat. and if you read correctly, i mentioned i only did this for about couple days, until i noticed my cat didn't run away from when eating on her own. 

and its not "cruel and unusual". i've read about this method on this very site from an old thread, where the OP was heavily involved with rescuing ferals and strays. She recommended this method to help socialize stray and feral kittens, and for them to establish trust in humans. The goal is to try to have them eat out of your hand, or at least not run away from you while eating. this method helps to create trust between you and your pet, so that your cat not only views you as some person that brings them food, but associates you with being a care giver, someone who loves them (this is why you pet and praise while your cat is eating)

it has worked well for me. and its really up to OP if she decided to give this a shot.

the cat that i've tried this with was a former stray kitten who came to me at 8 weeks, from living in the streets practically from the moment she was born, with a lot of issues and was very sick. I know what i had to do to take care of her and bring her back to health and make sure she's happy and not stressed in her own home. I know what i did, and i know it worked for me. I'm sorry you feel what i did was wrong, but it has worked for me. 
 

oneandahalfcats

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@oneandahalfcats  

i'm not starving my cat. and if you read correctly, i mentioned i only did this for about couple days, until i noticed my cat didn't run away from when eating on her own. 

and its not "cruel and unusual". i've read about this method on this very site from an old thread, where the OP was heavily involved with rescuing ferals and strays. She recommended this method to help socialize stray and feral kittens, and for them to establish trust in humans. The goal is to try to have them eat out of your hand, or at least not run away from you while eating. this method helps to create trust between you and your pet, so that your cat not only views you as some person that brings them food, but associates you with being a care giver, someone who loves them (this is why you pet and praise while your cat is eating)

it has worked well for me. and its really up to OP if she decided to give this a shot.

the cat that i've tried this with was a former stray kitten who came to me at 8 weeks, from living in the streets practically from the moment she was born, with a lot of issues and was very sick. I know what i had to do to take care of her and bring her back to health and make sure she's happy and not stressed in her own home. I know what i did, and i know it worked for me. I'm sorry you feel what i did was wrong, but it has worked for me. 
I didn't mention anything about cruel and unusual, but did note your use of the term 'starve' and based on your explanation, this is what you have done and have suggested.

Just because an individual involved in rescue work uses this technique, doesn't make it right or appropriate. There are other ways that do not involve forcing a cat to feed from you when they are at their most vulnerable and hungriest. To me this doesn't translate to forming trust but using food to force a situation for the purposes of modifying behavior.
 
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GemsGem

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Starving a cat is never a good idea even for a couple of days. It can cause a deadly condition called fatty liver diease ( feline hepatic lipidosis )

Here's a link

http://consciouscat.net/2012/03/26/feline-hepatic-lipidosis-fatty-liver-disease-in-cats/

Lamiatron I understand what you mean you did. I just think maybe you worded it badly. I wouldn't want anyone looking at this thread to take it the wrong way and actually starve their cat completely
 

oneandahalfcats

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Starving a cat is never a good idea even for a couple of days. It can cause a deadly condition called fatty liver diease ( feline hepatic lipidosis )

Here's a link

http://consciouscat.net/2012/03/26/feline-hepatic-lipidosis-fatty-liver-disease-in-cats/

Lamiatron I understand what you mean you did. I just think maybe you worded it badly. I wouldn't want anyone looking at this thread to take it the wrong way and actually starve their cat completely
  And fatty liver is precisely what makes this sort of practice, unsafe, which is why I stepped in here to shine a light. There are better, safer and much kinder ways of bonding and forging a trusting relationship with your cat.
 
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lola1962

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oneandahalfcats, I appreciate your passion.  I have been a cat owner for almost 40 years and this is the first time that I am having such a tough time with a kitty.  I have had feral cats in the past and have been very successful in socializing them.  That said, I am here on this site looking for advice.  I think you completely misunderstood the conversation.  No one was really ever going to starve their cat.  But I get the concept.  You said I need to reintroduce my kitty to the carrier.  How?  

I have left it out since the day they came home.  I put food, toys and treats in it.  Max is perfectly fine with it.  Ruby is like no cat I have ever had and I am struggling to try to get her to trust me again.  I am very patient and and would NEVER harm an animal in anyway, having said that, please send constructive advice.  I am a blubbering mess knowing that this precious little girl was abandoned and now fears me, someone who loves her unconditionally.

I am open to any advice and strategies that other cat owners have used with success, but please be specific - not critical.
 
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MoochNNoodles

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It seems things are beginning to get heated.  Please remember rule #2:
There is always room for different opinions, however, intolerance, bigotry, and religious ridicule will not be tolerated. Additionally, there is no room for flames, slams, and personal vendettas that carry on to the public view.
Thank you.
 

oneandahalfcats

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oneandahalfcats, I appreciate your passion.  I have been a cat owner for almost 40 years and this is the first time that I am having such a tough time with a kitty.  I have had feral cats in the past and have been very successful in socializing them.  That said, I am here on this site looking for advice.  I think you completely misunderstood the conversation.  No one was really ever going to starve their cat.  But I get the concept.  You said I need to reintroduce my kitty to the carrier.  How?  

I have left it out since the day they came home.  I put food, toys and treats in it.  Max is perfectly fine with it.  Ruby is like no cat I have ever had and I am struggling to try to get her to trust me again.  I am very patient and and would NEVER harm an animal in anyway, having said that, please send constructive advice.  I am a blubbering mess knowing that this precious little girl was abandoned and now fears me, someone who loves her unconditionally.

I am open to any advice and strategies that other cat owners have used with success, but please be specific - not critical.
Yes, I am very passionate when it comes to the welfare of animals. I am also a very caring, compassionate, kind and helpful person. I too have had many years of experience as a pet owner. I believe 43 to be exact. Experience has taught me that when it comes to cats, time and patience are necessary virtues to seeing results.

I don't believe I misconstrued anything about the concept or suggestion mentioned above at all, nor have I personally criticized you. When I see things being suggested that are potentially dangerous and in such a casual way without a thought or disclaimer regarding potential dangers, I get very annoyed at this. Withholding food from a cat was the suggestion made and accepted and my response was and remains, that this is not a safe or appropriate thing to do in any shape or form.

I did not think for one minute that you are someone who would intentionally harm your animals, but it's obvious (and understandable) that you are frustrated. Rather than giving in to the frustration, you need to take a deep breath in this situation with Ruby and dig deep into the several years of experience you have and find a way to connect with her to help her to trust you again. This my advice.

Here is a link to a fairly recent thread discussing the problem of getting cats into a carrier . Perhaps there is something that can help : http://www.thecatsite.com/t/271609/cant-get-a-cat-in-a-carrier

Good luck.
 

lamiatron

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Starving a cat is never a good idea even for a couple of days. It can cause a deadly condition called fatty liver diease ( feline hepatic lipidosis )

Here's a link

http://consciouscat.net/2012/03/26/feline-hepatic-lipidosis-fatty-liver-disease-in-cats/

Lamiatron I understand what you mean you did. I just think maybe you worded it badly. I wouldn't want anyone looking at this thread to take it the wrong way and actually starve their cat completely
Thank you. @GemsGem  you understood what i was trying to say. I did not mean to starve the cat for a couple of days. looking back i did word it wrong. what i did was, instead of feeding Jet 3-4 , small meals a day, i gave her bigger portions, but only twice a day, for about 2-3 days, and the 2 meals were REALLY spaced out. 

I understand what you are saying @oneandahalfcats  , and that's cool. I wouldn't starve my cat and give her liver issues. Even after you understood what i meant, You have your opinion on what i did, and that's cool... But i had to do what i had to do. My jet was forced onto me by the shelter, them telling me that she was a perfectly healthy 3.5 month old cat, but that was not the case. I bring her home to find out that she never eats, and is always hiding, even when i leave her alone in the room, never uses the litter box and has accidents all over, and after taking to the vet i find out she's only 8-10 weeks old, not 3.5 months like i was told, very sick, and needs meds. I was in a place where i did not know what to do to get this kitty to eat, and to be able to give her meds. I had to syringe feed her for a week, but how am i supposed to do that when she doesn't even want to come to me? or even eat on her own? and how am i supposed to give her meds so she can get better? to me, letting her not eat for a longer period of time so that i can handle her while she's eating and be able to feed her vs. leaving her to on her own terms and giving her food that she didn't even eat on her own when she was left all alone, seemed like the lesser of the two evils to me. That's where i was coming from. That's why i tried what that member who was heavily involved in rescue work suggested. because i had no other option. My cat was sick, she was not eating on her own, and she was a former stray. I tried it. it worked for me. I should not have probably used worked like "starve" and should have clarified what i meant. after the 2 days of spacing out her two meals, i noticed that when ever she saw food with me, she would come to, and i went back to feeding her 3.-4 times a day, and while feeding her, i would talk to her, and pet her, and stroke her. eventually she started to eat on her own, and i would just let her eat and pet her from the side or behind and praise her while she ate. i spent a lot of time on her, a lot of attention, not to mention $$$ on vets bills and more $$$ to keep her on meds forever..but i wouldn't trade her for anything :)

Also, People use food to modify the behavior of animals all the time. Whether its cats or dogs. you give your cats a treat to give positive reinforcement for something good they did, and treats are with held when they did something bad. Using food to modify, or moderate behavior is not something that isn't done or is wrong. People on the farms do it too. in human and animal relationships, that is the common factor. food. 

I also want to say, what i suggested is not regarding getting kitty into carrier, as i have never had issues with that, so i would not know what to try or suggest. Both my cats just like their carriers. My advice was to help @Lola1962  try to gain some trust from her kitty, perhaps i should have clarified! lol

@Lola1962  perhaps you can try giving kitty some calming treats before you put her into the carrier? i think it would be best if you would try to not put her in the carrier for a long time, clearly it stresses her out and undoes all the hard work you've put in trying to gain her trust. try to contact either your preferred vet or another one, and see if they can do an at home check up for your skittish baby :(. also, once kitty starts to feel safe around you, maybe put an article of your worn clothing in the carrier. leave worn clothes around where kitty stays for the most part so she can get used to your scent. My cat Charlie LOVES my clothes now. he takes anything he can find and stuffs it all in his cardboard box. lol. but scents are a big thing for kitties. 
 

lamiatron

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  And fatty liver is precisely what makes this sort of practice, unsafe, which is why I stepped in here to shine a light. There are better, safer and much kinder ways of bonding and forging a trusting relationship with your cat.
@oneandahalfcats  

perhaps you could shed some light on what other methods other users can use to help bond with their kitty and form trusting relationships, so that other people who see this can have many things to try with their cat.

first and foremost is of course patience!
 

oneandahalfcats

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@oneandahalfcats  

perhaps you could shed some light on what other methods other users can use to help bond with their kitty and form trusting relationships, so that other people who see this can have many things to try with their cat.

first and foremost is of course patience!
I don't have a lot of time today as I am on the clock. Just taking a short break here. If I have some time later I may try and put together a few tips. For now, the link is there to the thread about loading cats into a cat carrier.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain a little more about what your situation was, which from what I can tell, is not starving a cat, but reducing or changing the amount of food it gets which is different. As cats are very routine creatures, I would be careful when changing feeding routines as this can cause stomach upset and a delay or change in bowel movements. We have to be careful with the language we use here when explaining things, as anyone and everyone sees our posts long after we have posted.

I will leave you with one thought and that is, food is an important bridge between pet owners and pets in forging a strong, trusting bond as pets look to us for food, shelter and in some cases nurturing and bonding. For this reason, food should never be used, in my opinion, to modify behavior. Treats are different in that they are not an animal's basic food source, but a source of reward, not punishment. I used to feed treats some time ago, but stopped as my current cats get well fed and are content without them. What I do believe can be effective to modify behavior is clicker training which has been proven to be quite effective, without the need to involve food.
 
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lamiatron

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its funny you mention clicker training, because i'm considering getting a clicker. Jet, the kitty i mentioned earlier in this thread is actually quite the fetcher! if i throw something she fetches for me and waits for me to throw it again. I want to reinforce this behavior with more than just treats.

Charlie recently learned his name, and sits when i tell him and stays, and comes with i tell him to come. i need a clicker to let him know he's doing good because i dont always have treats handy..
 

oneandahalfcats

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its funny you mention clicker training, because i'm considering getting a clicker. Jet, the kitty i mentioned earlier in this thread is actually quite the fetcher! if i throw something she fetches for me and waits for me to throw it again. I want to reinforce this behavior with more than just treats.

Charlie recently learned his name, and sits when i tell him and stays, and comes with i tell him to come. i need a clicker to let him know he's doing good because i dont always have treats handy..
Well it might work without treats, but typicially clicker training uses treats initially. This is the motivator. As you progress along, you start to use other verbal cues and signals in place of the clicker and treats, so that your cat no longer needs to the treat or clicker. Sounds like you might be already there, or close to it.
 
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