Negative Reinforcement and Negative Punishments

jinksandchew

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Hi,

I need some clear examples for the terms Negative Reinforcement and Negative Punishments. I understand the terms but I need to describe to non-trainers what this is without making it sound complicated. I also know that negative reinforcement should not ever be used but just want examples. Giving your cat a treat is a clear sign of Positive Reinforcement. Great examples of Not using the litterbox and scratching chair would be helpful. Many thanks
 

di and bob

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I always go with positive reinforcement. Cats do not respond to punishment and negative reinforcement like dogs, who are of a pack mentality and want to please a leader. Cats are too independent and regal for that. They only respond by becoming sneaky and afraid. i got my cats those cardboard corrugated scratchers and set them by where they were scratching. They MUCH prefer them. I had one who was stubborn, and habits are hard to break, so for a while I applied doublesided sticky clear tape to the areas and that solved that. I suppose that could be considered negative, because they don't like it! As for not using teh litterbox, you have to figure out why. Are they marking because they are unneutered or something is making them insecure, such as a cat seen outside, a new housemember, a bully in the household? There is ALWAYS a reason for not wanting to use the litter box. New litter, hates the box or it's location, ANYTHING new that has happened or appeared, Cats absolutely hate change, Mine started doing that when I moved. It DID resolve in time, so just concentrate (and try different litters) until you hit on the motive for your cat doing this. Then it will resolve it'self. sometimes it helps to keep tehm in a smaller area with the litter box until they start using it consistantly. We will help you through this, it can be changed!
 
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jinksandchew

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thank you so much very helpful. Its more for a course I'm doing and I also get asked in my animal shelter volunteer role - I foster kittens. Here is what i think but just not 100% sure i am right.

Not using the litterbox problem - cat peeing in corner of rooms
Positive
Add an extra litter box and or increase the size of the existing and or try another vanity of litter. Reward the cat with treats and praise when they do use the litter box.
Negative (NOT RECOMMENDED) – screaming and chasing her away when you see her toileting outside the box.

Cat Scratching Chair Problem
Positive
Entice them to scratch something else, like a scratching post. To do this, as soon as the cats scratches the post, immediately reward with treats, catnip, interactive play, and petting or grooming. Whichever the cat likes most.

Negative (NOT RECOMMENDED)
Throwing an item close to the cat or screaming at it when you see him scratching the chair
 

Willowy

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Very simplified:
Positive reinforcement means good thing happens
Negative reinforcement means bad thing goes away
Positive punishment means bad thing happens
Negative punishment means good thing goes away

Of course that means it's a little different from the common usages of "positive" and "negative".

It's best to stick to positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Positive punishment is likely to cause fallout (and is generally ineffective in cats), and negative reinforcement is difficult to use properly.
 
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jinksandchew

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thank you so much. would this be correct?

Stoping Cat from Biting when walking past?

Positive - when you walk past the cat and she doesn’t bite reward him with treats and praise.
Negative - Confuse her by gently pushing towards her bite. Once she releases his grasp, stay still and ignore her. Hopefully she will soon learn that biting flesh results in an immediate end to the fun.
 
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jinksandchew

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and i mean negative reinforcement not punishment
 

Caspers Human

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I don't agree that negative reinforcement should never be used.

I just think that the DEGREE of negative reinforcement should never be out of line for the animal in question.

For instance, if you're working with a big dog like a Saint Bernard grabbing it by the collar and shouting, "No!" is probably okay but would you do that with a cat? Not on your life!

However, if you have a cat that is jumping up to the kitchen counter and you don't allow that, picking the cat up and putting her on the floor and telling her, "Stay down," is a reasonable thing.

Both of those things are negative reinforcement. They are just scaled for the size of the animal, its temperament and the situation.

If a dog tries to jump up on a person, shoving it down with your arm or blocking it with your knee are perfectly acceptable ways to negatively reinforce that behavior but, if a cat tries to do the a similar thing, that would NOT be acceptable. Maybe just putting your hand up would be all that is needed but you might only need to say, "No!"

Negative reinforcement simply means that the animal doesn't get what it wants.
The difference is the WAY in which the animal gets rejected.

I also think that it is important to pair positive reinforcement with negative reinforcement, especially with cats.

If a cat doesn't get what it wants...negative reinforcement...it should also be presented with an alternative way to get something good. In other words, we are saying, "No, you can't do that but you CAN do this if you want."

Let's use the cat jumping up on the counter as an example.
When she jumps up, you can tell her "No," and put her down but it would be better if you ALSO gave her a place where she is allowed to go. Maybe a stool or a window ledge where she can see the action going on but won't be on the counter.

When she goes on the counter... "No."
When she goes on the ledge... "Good kitty!" Petting, attention and treats! :)

If you do it that way, by pairing negative and positive reinforcement together, I bet your cat will learn twice as fast as with negative reinforcement, alone.

When we first adopted Casper, he had a tendency to scratch the back of an easy chair in the living room.

When we caught him doing it, we just said, "Cas-PER!"... Kind of like that voice you use when you catch a kid with his hand in the cookie jar. Most of the time, he would stop just there. A few times, he wouldn't stop there. Then it was, "Casper! NO!" and we might clap our hands or stomp our feet if he was being really bad.

That's just about the worst punishment you should ever give a cat unless it is attacking, biting or clawing!
But shouting and stomping your feet is a pretty big punishment for a cat, though.

Eventually, we figured out that Casper mostly only scratched the furniture when he thought he wasn't getting enough attention. If we were sitting down, watching TV and Casper wanted to play but we weren't giving him any attention, THAT'S when he would act up.

The solution was to play with the cat. :)

We got him some more scratching posts and put them in places where he liked to use them.
When Casper used his scratching posts he got pets and attention... "Good kitty!"
When he scratched the easy chair he got scolded... "Cas-PER, No!"
We made sure we didn't ignore Casper too much when he wanted to play.

Using positive and negative reinforcement, together, it didn't take long for Casper to learn not to scratch where he wasn't allowed.
 
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jinksandchew

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Very simplified:
Positive reinforcement means good thing happens
Negative reinforcement means bad thing goes away
Positive punishment means bad thing happens
Negative punishment means good thing goes away

Of course that means it's a little different from the common usages of "positive" and "negative".

It's best to stick to positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Positive punishment is likely to cause fallout (and is generally ineffective in cats), and negative reinforcement is difficult to use properly.
this makes complete sense thanks
 
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jinksandchew

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I don't agree that negative reinforcement should never be used.

I just think that the DEGREE of negative reinforcement should never be out of line for the animal in question.

For instance, if you're working with a big dog like a Saint Bernard grabbing it by the collar and shouting, "No!" is probably okay but would you do that with a cat? Not on your life!

However, if you have a cat that is jumping up to the kitchen counter and you don't allow that, picking the cat up and putting her on the floor and telling her, "Stay down," is a reasonable thing.

Both of those things are negative reinforcement. They are just scaled for the size of the animal, its temperament and the situation.

If a dog tries to jump up on a person, shoving it down with your arm or blocking it with your knee are perfectly acceptable ways to negatively reinforce that behavior but, if a cat tries to do the a similar thing, that would NOT be acceptable. Maybe just putting your hand up would be all that is needed but you might only need to say, "No!"

Negative reinforcement simply means that the animal doesn't get what it wants.
The difference is the WAY in which the animal gets rejected.

I also think that it is important to pair positive reinforcement with negative reinforcement, especially with cats.

If a cat doesn't get what it wants...negative reinforcement...it should also be presented with an alternative way to get something good. In other words, we are saying, "No, you can't do that but you CAN do this if you want."

Let's use the cat jumping up on the counter as an example.
When she jumps up, you can tell her "No," and put her down but it would be better if you ALSO gave her a place where she is allowed to go. Maybe a stool or a window ledge where she can see the action going on but won't be on the counter.

When she goes on the counter... "No."
When she goes on the ledge... "Good kitty!" Petting, attention and treats! :)

If you do it that way, by pairing negative and positive reinforcement together, I bet your cat will learn twice as fast as with negative reinforcement, alone.

When we first adopted Casper, he had a tendency to scratch the back of an easy chair in the living room.

When we caught him doing it, we just said, "Cas-PER!"... Kind of like that voice you use when you catch a kid with his hand in the cookie jar. Most of the time, he would stop just there. A few times, he wouldn't stop there. Then it was, "Casper! NO!" and we might clap our hands or stomp our feet if he was being really bad.

That's just about the worst punishment you should ever give a cat unless it is attacking, biting or clawing!
But shouting and stomping your feet is a pretty big punishment for a cat, though.

Eventually, we figured out that Casper mostly only scratched the furniture when he thought he wasn't getting enough attention. If we were sitting down, watching TV and Casper wanted to play but we weren't giving him any attention, THAT'S when he would act up.

The solution was to play with the cat. :)

We got him some more scratching posts and put them in places where he liked to use them.
When Casper used his scratching posts he got pets and attention... "Good kitty!"
When he scratched the easy chair he got scolded... "Cas-PER, No!"
We made sure we didn't ignore Casper too much when he wanted to play.

Using positive and negative reinforcement, together, it didn't take long for Casper to learn not to scratch where he wasn't allowed.
this is great - thank you
 

Willowy

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Negative reinforcement simply means that the animal doesn't get what it wants.
That's not the technical definition of negative reinforcement, which may case some confusion.
if you're working with a big dog like a Saint Bernard grabbing it by the collar and shouting, "No!" is probably okay
Many large-breed dogs are very sensitive and this could actually cause damage to the relationship and cause the dog to be fearful. What an animal can handle physically doesn't have anything to do with what they can handle mentally.
reinforcement...it should also be presented with an alternative way to get something good. In other words, we are saying, "No, you can't do that but you CAN do this if you want."
This is very good advice, for humans too :D.
 

SpecterOhPossum

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I think it's up to the individual.

Mine is incapable of learning right from wrong; so now I just deal with it and cater her room to her in such a way that she can't get into things. She doesn't have any domestication in her lineage I'm aware of; and it shows. Praise and scolding has never not once made a difference; she doesn't care. I appreciate her ballsy nature.
 

Willowy

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Mine is incapable of learning right from wrong
All animals are incapable of learning right from wrong. All they know is what works for them, which, yes, varies by individual. Some dogs may work only for praise, or for fear of punishment, but these rarely motivate cats. All animals are capable of learning through opersnt conditioning, but you do have to find what motivates them and that can be hard with some animals.
 
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SpecterOhPossum

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All animals are incapable of learning right from wrong. All they know is what works for them, which, yes, varies by individual. Some dogs may work only for praise, or for fear of punishment, but these rarely motivate cats. All animals are capable of learning through opersnt conditioning, but you do have to find what motivates them and that can be hard with some animals.
It's just odd as I guess I've never handled a natural cat before. Most cats in my childhood would learn normally or decently, but mine doesn't even respond to "treats" and stuff. (usually her fav meat) Dunno. It's not a big deal at all cause she doesn't truly act out (doesn't inappropriately potty, doesn't seek you out to attack you, etc) All she does is destroy stuff and do slightly annoying things for attention; which isn't an issue. I don't own many things, most of the crap is hers so ... Good job breaking your own stuff I payed for. :flail:
 

Caspers Human

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Many large-breed dogs are very sensitive and this could actually cause damage to the relationship and cause the dog to be fearful. What an animal can handle physically doesn't have anything to do with what they can handle mentally.
You're right. You've got to know the dog. I was trying to give a concise answer.

I grew up with hunting dogs. Pointers and Brittanys, mostly.
Those dogs had to be handled assertively. Would I grab them by the collar? Maybe. Depends on the dog and the situation.
I would often hold them by the collar, though. Not hard. Just holding on.

I actually knew a Saint Bernard. "Bernie."
He was the neighbor's dog and we played with him a lot.
Sometimes you WOULD have to grab Bernie by the collar and say, "No!"
He was a big, strong dog with a strong will to match. Sometimes you just had to show him who was boss.

Smaller dogs? No, I wouldn't handle them like that.
Sensitive dogs? No matter what size, no.

There are lots of nuances and gray areas, here.
I was trying to give a simple answer to a complex question.

That's not the technical definition of negative reinforcement, which may case some confusion.
"Reinforcement" refers to the action taken, be it positive or negative.
Again, I was trying to be concise. In this case, TOO concise.
 

ArtNJ

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I think negative reinforcement does work and is a useful adjunct to positive reinforcement, the mix depending on the issue. For example, if you have a bitey kitten, I and many others here recommend a somewhat loud (but not terrifying) "no!" Good luck teaching a kitten not to bite with just positive reinforcement. Some people with bitey kittens are on the verge of giving them back; they need something that actually works, and I'd sure hate to tell them to use some redirection method that may or may not ever do anything. And there are a million different examples -- redirection or positive reinforcement may work great for some issues, but it isn't one size fits all.

I've had many highly bonded cats and think its just untrue that a little bit of appropriate negative reinforcement is going to destroy a bond. Its also just highly unrealistic to not use any negative reinforcement, as some issues don't respond well to positive reinforcement/redirection alone.

But it depends on the issue and your cat. Obviously, screaming at any cat is a bad idea, hitting far worse, and even the loud "no!" I recommended above could be too much for a scaredy kitten not yet well bonded.
 
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