Need some serious advice on trying to keep kitten INDOORS

[wolfie305]

So my roommate (Jay) and I have had our kittens for a little over a month now and we are totally in love. They are both up to date with their kitten shots and Khaleesi has been spayed (Jay doesn't want to fix Kaylee, but I'm really trying to convince him to...).

Every so often, Jay would bring them both outside to hang out on our front deck. At first they didn't like it, Kalyee would run back in. However, Khaleesi, being the fearless/curious kitten she is, is now SUPER curious about the outside world and started to wander the deck more. I grabbed her and ran back inside and told him it was a bad idea to let them outside because they're just going to want to know more about it and try to escape all the time.

He brings her out again a few days later to see me while I was doing yard work, this time she's off the deck and on the ground. Again, I bring her in.

Well, now she's as curious as ever. EVERY time I try to go outside, she jumps on the table or comes running over and looks as though she's deciding to venture out. In fact, one of the times when I was on the porch, she bolted out the door when Jay opened it and actually ran straight towards the end of the deck like she was going to jump down and take off! I had to grab her by her tail to pull her out from behind the grill before she could do it I was FURIOUS.

Outdoors cats are a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I do not think cats belong outdoors. Ever. I worked in an animal hospital for 5 years and saw all the TERRIBLE things that happened to outdoor cats. We live in a very wooded area and also close to a major highway. She would be killed immediately. Plus, I am absolutely 100% terrified of fleas (phobia level), nor do I really want to spend $60 a month for flea/tick treatment and put unnecessary chemicals on her body - I rather this money go to the good food I want and have them on.

So my question is - what can I do to make her stop being so curious/bolting at the doors? As a huge dog avocate/lover and trainer, I know first hand that positive reinforcement training is the best method......for dogs. I know training cats, while minimal, is possible, but I don't think redirecting her attention from the door with positive reinforcement is going to work on cats hahaha. 

I was honestly thinking of using a spray bottle, as the ONLY thing she is afraid of is the spray from the swiffer mop, but is this something that is frowned upon in the cat world? I certainly do not want to do anything that isn't for her best interest. Do you think this would even work? As mean as this sounds, I literally want her to BE AFRAID of the front door and the slider, or at least get it into her head that outdoors is bad. I know fear training for dogs is a horrible and incorrect method, but again, cats are so much different/harder to train.

Any suggestions or methods would be appreciated. I will do anything it takes to keep her indoors and safe forever

 

[Ms. Freya]

One thing I found that really helped (someone else on this site suggested it) when my Wendel wet through his door darting stage was to have two small metal containers with a few pennies in each. We put on on each side of the door and whenever we opened the door and saw him comeing, gave the can a sharp shake. The loud noise would startle him and distract him from getting outside for the few minues it took us to get into the house. Now (1 year later) we haven't had the cans out for months and he'll come running, but stop about 6 feet from the door and just watch us.

 

[wolfie305]

Oh my god, what a fantastic idea. I am totally doing this when I get home today!! Thank you so much!
 

 

[tulosai]

Yeah, it's hard.  Something else you can do when coming in is toss treats in front of you, into the house.  The spray bottle is a delicate matter- if you spray them (which is frowned upon here) it is risky in this situation as it may cause them to bolt out the door to get away from the spray instead of causing them to back away from the door. 

 

[catlanta]

Misting bottles. I keep two by the door--one for me, and one for my cohabitator. Use it to back them up when you leave, then leave it near the door for when you come home.

Also, for extra precaution, I bought some of that plastic with nubs on one side that you use for under a wheeled office chair so it slides. I cut out a piece that fits around the area where the door opens (I know that's not clear, see photo below). They're not crazy about walking on it (the more stubborn one will stand on it, but they won't dash over it)

IMG_20130712_182628.jpg

• catlanta
• Jul 12, 2013

 

[flintmccullough]

First,your-going-to-have-to-train-Jay,not-to-bring-her-on-the-deck,LOL.

Being-that-she-is-not-spayed,when-she-comes-into-heat,she-is-going-to-try-real-hard-to-escape,then,she-is-going-to-end-up-pregnant,if-she-doesn't-sucumb,to-all-the-other-bad-things-that-happen-to-outdoor-kitties.

And-being-not-spayed,when-she-comes-into-heat,your-going-to-have-every-tom,in-a-9-mile-radius,hanging-around-your-house,so-tell-Jay,he-best-stock-up-on-snackies,and-get-a-wide-screen-TV-for-them,cause.....they-are-loud.

And,turn-your-TV-up-loud,cause-she-will-be-crying-to-go-out.

Lastly,you-can-tell-him,un-spayed-kitties,that-are-not-being-bred,are-prone-to-a-plethera-of-health-issues,one-of-which-is-mammory-cancer.

So,first,ya-gotta-train-Jay,LOL.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2235&aid=925

I-teach-my-kittens-when-they-are-little-tykes.I-use-the-spray-bottle,on-a-fine-mist.I-stand-outside-the-door,open-the-door,say-in-a-loud,stern-voice-GET-BACK,hold-my-hand,at-their-level,in-a-stop-sign,then-I-spray-the-fine-mist.

Only-took-them-a-few-days-to-learn-it.I-could-stand-there-with-the-door-open,and-they-will-not-cross-over-the-threshold,they-just-sit-there.If-one-is-too-close,I-use-the-hand-sign,and-he-will-walk-away.

I-also-like-the-plastic-with-the-nubs-idea!

 

[rv-kitty]

We used a spray bottle of water. I know some people disagree but it's very effective. Much better than having a kitty dash out the door and right into traffic or vanish off into the distance.
 

 

[catspaw66]

Even though it may be effective in some cases, this site is anti-spray bottle. In the long run, it causes more behavior problems.

 

[flintmccullough]

This-site,being-anti-spray......is-this-a-rule,I-am-not-aware-of?

Because......I-disagree,with-it-causing-behavior-problems.Its-a-tool,and-like-any-tool,if-used-properly,does-its-intended-job.It-has-to-be-incorporated,in-the-training-process,and-its-used-as-a-deterent-or-reminder,per-say,and-not-used-as-punishment.Its-a-training-tool.

My-kittens-learned-in-2-days,not-to-cross-that-threshold,in-the-doorway,but-it-was-incorporated-with-the-training,I-used-words,and-hand-signals.As-they-learn,they-then-respond,to-just-the-words,then-to-just-the-hand-signal.

Mine-are-show-cats,they-are-very-well-behaved,for-the-judges,for-the-vet.They-are-also-very-affectionate.

As-RV-Kitty-said,getting-out-that-door,is-not-an-option.I-could-stand-there-with-the-door-wide-open,which-I-do,when-bringing-in-groceries-and-they-will-not-cross-that-threshold.If-one-gets-too-close,I-use-the-stop-hand-signal,and-he-walks-away.

 

[catspaw66]

This is from the articles section  


Every time I surf into a cat board and read that members are using squirt bottles on their cats, I cringe. If you are using a squirt bottle to achieve a behavior modification, I urge you to stop. All you are doing is instilling fear into your cat. You are traveling from friend to predator in your cat's mind because you are scaring her with something by nature most cats hate (unless she is a Turkish Van or another special breed) and that is water. Heaven help you if you have administered this form of punishment on your cat and then find you have to bathe her for medical reasons. Bathing a cat is difficult enough, but bathing a cat that has good reason to be terrified of water is twice as tough. Add to the scare factor of the squirt bottle the scenario of you shooting your cat with spray as she is running from you, and you accidentally get water in her ear, then you are faced with a problem. Getting water in a cat's ear will upset the PH balance and make your cat vulnerable to ear infections. This may lead to hefty vet bills before it clears up.

 

[flintmccullough]

I-don't-know-what-you-mean,by-"articles-section"LOL-is-it-in-the-rules-section?

I-would-ask-the-author-the-following-questions:

1.What-proof-do-you-have,that-you-are-instilling-fear-in-your-cat,how-many-pet-parents-have-you-talked-to,what-is-your-basis-for-this-statement?

2.What-does-a-Turkish-Van-have-to-do-with-anything?

3.All-show-cats-are-washed,all-the-breeds,which-there-are-like-thousands-of-them,so-how-do-you-justify-that?

4.Why-do-you-feel-its-a-punishment,when-everybody-who-uses-this-method,views-it-as-a-tool,a-training-tool?

5.Why-is-the-cat-running-from-you?Your-not-supposed-to-chase-them-down.

6.Why-do-you-feel,the-only-time-you-can-get-water-in-a-cat;s-ear,is-when-you-squirt-them?Washing-a-cat,show-cat-or-pet,even-one-that-has-been-squirted,has-the-possibility-of-getting-water-in-their-ear.

7.Bathing-a-cat-is-not-difficult,just-ask-the-thousands-of-show-cat-owners-out-there,these-cats-were-trained,and-they-sit-right-there.

8.You-don't-squirt-them,you-don't-hit-them-like-its-a-fire-hose,you-spray-with-a-fine-mist.

9.How-do-you-explain-my-show-cats,and-the-many-other-show-cats-out-there-that-have-been-"trained"-with-a-spray-bottle?

10.Mine-are-more-likely-to-attack-you,if-you-should-try-and-harm-their-mommy,thats-how-much-they-love-me,they-have-no-fear-of-me-or-a-fear-of-anything,not-even-a-fire-alarm-in-the-show-hotel.

11.The-only-thing-mine-are-afraid-of,is-mommy-not-feeding-them-on-time,LOL.

12.Just-curious,how-well-behaved-are-your-cats?Can-they-ride-8-hrs-one-way-and-sleep-the-whole-way?How-would-they-behave-in-a-show-hall,with-all-the-noise-and-commotion,and-being-handled-by-different-judges-all-day?

 

[rang_27]

Two of my cats are 10 years old and this was a problem when they were young and has recenly become a problem again because they think if the dog gets to go out so do they. The good thing is that my yard is fenced and they aren't intrested in getting out just in eating grass. That gives me time to catch them to put them back in the house. When I lived in an appartment, it was more of an issue. What i did there was to keep a Baby gate between the door and my screen door. Then when I would come in I could use the baby gate to push them back away from the door.

 

[GoldyCat]

This-site,being-anti-spray......is-this-a-rule,I-am-not-aware-of?:jaw:

Because......I-disagree,with-it-causing-behavior-problems.Its-a-tool,and-like-any-tool,if-used-properly,does-its-intended-job.It-has-to-be-incorporated,in-the-training-process,and-its-used-as-a-deterent-or-reminder,per-say,and-not-used-as-punishment.Its-a-training-tool.

My-kittens-learned-in-2-days,not-to-cross-that-threshold,in-the-doorway,but-it-was-incorporated-with-the-training,I-used-words,and-hand-signals.As-they-learn,they-then-respond,to-just-the-words,then-to-just-the-hand-signal.

Mine-are-show-cats,they-are-very-well-behaved,for-the-judges,for-the-vet.They-are-also-very-affectionate.

As-RV-Kitty-said,getting-out-that-door,is-not-an-option.I-could-stand-there-with-the-door-wide-open,which-I-do,when-bringing-in-groceries-and-they-will-not-cross-that-threshold.If-one-gets-too-close,I-use-the-stop-hand-signal,and-he-walks-away. :high5:

TCS does not have a "rule" against spraying cats with water, but it is discouraged as a form of discipline. I did use a squirt bottle a few time with my first kitten. I stopped after a few tries, not because it made her scared of me, but because it was totally ineffective.

catspaw66 was not giving you his personal take on the subject, he was quoting an article. If you look at the menu bar across the top of every TCS page you'll see a link for Articles. The article catspaw66 quoted is Cats and Discipline Don't Mix, found under the Behavior tab on the articles page.

BTW, all of the articles on TCS have been approved by Anne, the site owner.

 

[flintmccullough]

Found-it,Thanks!

I-thought-catspaw66-was-trying-to-tell-me-about-some-rule,I-was-not-aware-of,LOL,when-he-said-this-is-an-anti-spray-site.

I-don't-know-who-Mary-Ann-Miller-is,and-what-she-wrote,is-just-her-opinion.She-obviously-knows-nothing-about-show-cats,and-I-don't-understand-what-a-Turkish-Angora-has-to-do-with-the-subject.

She-is-viewing-spraying-as-a-punishment,and-its-not,its-a-training-tool,and-that-is-my-opinion.Her-reasoning-and-logics-are-her-opinions,and-in-my-opinion,she-is-wrong.

 

[rv-kitty]

Even though it may be effective in some cases, this site is anti-spray bottle. In the long run, it causes more behavior problems.

Such as?  None of my 4 cats have behavior problems.  There was no other way to stop them.  Shaking a can of pebbles was totally ignored.

 

[rv-kitty]

This is from the articles section  


Every time I surf into a cat board and read that members are using squirt bottles on their cats, I cringe. If you are using a squirt bottle to achieve a behavior modification, I urge you to stop. All you are doing is instilling fear into your cat. You are traveling from friend to predator in your cat's mind because you are scaring her with something by nature most cats hate (unless she is a Turkish Van or another special breed) and that is water. Heaven help you if you have administered this form of punishment on your cat and then find you have to bathe her for medical reasons. Bathing a cat is difficult enough, but bathing a cat that has good reason to be terrified of water is twice as tough. Add to the scare factor of the squirt bottle the scenario of you shooting your cat with spray as she is running from you, and you accidentally get water in her ear, then you are faced with a problem. Getting water in a cat's ear will upset the PH balance and make your cat vulnerable to ear infections. This may lead to hefty vet bills before it clears up.

I disagree.  They show no fear of water nor do any of them have behavioral problems. The above is just someone's personal opinion.  It's the surprise factor that stops them dead in their tracks - not the water.  After a few sprays, and it's distilled water containing no chemicals, they will stay away from an opening door.  It's not "punishment"... it's startling them.  It's getting the message across that they must stay away from open doors. A spray doesn't get in their ears.  Good grief!   Better a spray of clean water than door-dash into the road or jaws of some predator. 

 

[rv-kitty]

TCS does not have a "rule" against spraying cats with water, but it is discouraged as a form of discipline. I did use a squirt bottle a few time with my first kitten. I stopped after a few tries, not because it made her scared of me, but because it was totally ineffective.

catspaw66 was not giving you his personal take on the subject, he was quoting an article. If you look at the menu bar across the top of every TCS page you'll see a link for Articles. The article catspaw66 quoted is Cats and Discipline Don't Mix, found under the Behavior tab on the articles page.

BTW, all of the articles on TCS have been approved by Anne, the site owner.

And yet it was 100% effective used on my four cats.  If it wasn't effective, no one would use the technique.  Noisy cans being shaken had no effect on them after the first few times.  It may have worked for the person who wrote the article, but that doesn't mean it works on all cats.  If one of my cats manages to escape the house with all the predators we have here, I most likely will never see it again. If one escapes the RV when we're traveling or camping - same thing!  If someone knows of another method that works 100% like a spray of clean water, I would love to know about it.

 

[eb24]

Not that I want to further any kind of debate but....

I think the main premise the article was trying to get across is that there are two basic types of reinforcement: positive and negative. Negative reinforcement is altering a behavior through fear, the common forms being shaking a can full of pennies (or another form of loud noise)  or using a spray bottle full of water. While sometimes these methods work (mainly because they scare the stuffing out of the cat so they never try whatever it was they were attempting to do again), it can have unintended negative behavioral consequences. Most common are that the animal develops either a fear of the person brandishing the item (aka you) or a fear of whatever the item is (loud noises or water). I think that the article was trying to get across that if you scare a cat with water there is a higher likelihood that they will begin to fear it altogether, making it incredibly difficult to do something that is sometimes necessary like give them a bath, which most cats are already iffy about (Flint- the Turkish Van reference was because they are the only known breed of cat who consistently likes water- they have even been known to swim. Just because show cats will tolerate being bathed doesn't mean they enjoy it). 

Positive reinforcement, on the other hand, is teaching an animal not to do something because there is a better alternative. This generally comes in the form of praise or, if you actually want it to work, treats. 

 The cat learns that if they do something else then they get the reward. It makes whatever the original thing was way less appealing. The thing with positive reinforcement is that it has to be done consistently- otherwise it is completely ineffective (at least in the beginning). Because the pressure is on the owner to perform and we as humans, well, sometimes forget many people think it doesn't work as effectively. This is generally not the case. The problem is because it is reward based that getting the desired behavior means the reward must always be there. If it isn't, then the cat feels they have been duped and all the work goes out the window. 

So, to answer the OP's question: to prevent your cat from darting for the door I would first try a positive association technique. What I did was I put a bookshelf next to the front door. Before I would leave I would coax my cat with a treat to sit up there, and then would give her the treat. While she was munching I would slip out. After a few days of this she learned that when I was leaving meant she got a treat, and would be patiently sitting on the bookshelf waiting for it. After a few more days she would be sitting there waiting for one when I got home to see if it worked the other way- and of course it did. The lure of the treat was much greater than that of the great outdoors. Now I don't need to treat her every time I come in. Sometimes she gets one and sometimes she doesn't. But, it got her past her wanting to run outside phase! 

So, set up a bookcase (or table  or cat tree or whatever you have that looks good in the space). You just want it high enough so that while they are learning you have time to get the door closed before they can jump out. Get a little jar and put treats in it to keep right there so you are never scrambling to get one. Coax her over and take it from there! Of course, some Jay training is going to be necessary here too. 

I think the bottom line is that sometimes negative reinforcement does work, and sometimes when all else fails there is a place for it. But, if the behavior can be just as easily corrected using a positive reinforcement technique then that option should be pursued first to minimize the risk of unintended, long-term, behavioral consequences.

That, and teaching your cat to "come" for treats can have long term payoffs, as this won't be the first behavioral issue that you have to correct. Get her started now on the path of being food motivated! 

Best of luck. 

 

[feralvr]

Kaylee must be spayed. Not only will she soon be howling and calling to get out, she may start spraying indoors as well. It is highly possible that she will escape sometime and become pregnant . Please help keep the cat overpopulation under control and get her spayed ASAP. Therein, lies your issue and the bigger issue, IMO.

 

[feralvr]

As far as the door dashing. ----> problem solved.

Again, get Kaylee spayed. Maybe have Jay go to a shelter and spend a day volunteering. He will quickly realize the outcome and see first hand what happens to all of those unwanted kittens being born of irresponsible cat owners.