Need diet help, 15 yr old, pancreas and kidney issues

[chalupa]

I'm posting for a relative whose cat is 15. Recently, cat named Pepe had bloodwork done and it was looking very bad. Said pancreatic enzymes high 48 (not that I know what that means). Also the vet said kidneys are failing. They are suspecting a possibility of pancreatic cancer from what they can tell from ultrasound. They are not going to do a biopsy. The cat is getting cerenia and weekly b12 shot. Pepe is 8.5 lbs . Vet thought maybe cause was diet of. Dry and canned food only. Cat eats dry taste of the wild and fancy feast every day., I know a favorite is code, sole shrimp. The vet said a low protein diet may be best. Also said cats have the best diet when they hunt. Would this cat possibly benefit from raw food or is it too late? The pancreas is something I'm not sure about with the raw food.

 

[feralvr]

Sorry for just seeing your thread. Nice of you to post for your relative and care enough about their senior kitty with these health issues. I am hoping that by bumping up your thread someone with better knowledge will come along. I certainly would not lower the protein, if this were my cat, but would stay away from carbs all together. Grain free canned, yes, even raw, and no dry food would be best for this cat, I think. I will post our resource thread which is packed with some excellent advice/suggestions too.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263955/helpful-resources-raw-home-cooked-cat-food-forum

 

[chalupa]

Thanks a lot for your info and thoughts in this

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

For the kidney issues, Vet's USED to advocate low protein, but now they are changing their attitudes on that.  But what kidney cats really need to steer clear of is high phosphorus.  Fancy Feast CLASSICS are pretty high in phosphorus. The other Fancy Feasts aren't too bad (that being said, my own kidney cat eats Fancy Feast...ALL varieties, including CLASSICS

...I let her eat whatever she wants, just to get her to eat...with our Vet's blessing)

Here is a website that many of us kidney cat owners refer to frequently...I know I do:  http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm   THIS particular page of that website lists canned foods in order of phosphorus...low to high, so it can be very helpful when looking for the right food:  http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm#canned_usa

Now as far as the pancreas goes, is Pepe now on pain meds?  Anything related to the pancreas is very painful as far as I know, so I would think pain meds are in order.  Those meds you listed are NOT for pain BTW.  The cerenia is to help with his appetite, and, of course, vitamin B-12 is a vitamin!

No, it is never too late to start on raw, IF he will eat it.  It will not reverse the kidney damage however.  Kidney damage cannot reverse itself, but it can stop from getting worse, and, luckily, kidney's can keep functioning with lots of damage.  BUT, if he starts eating raw, he should probably NOT eat bones, as they are higher in phosphorus.  My girl was eating raw when she was diagnosed, and we decided to use eggshell powder for our calcium source vs bones.  In the meantime she decided she didn't like raw anymore, so it became a moot point.  (she HAD been a kibble eater for most of her life, was pretty new to raw when diagnosed with kidney disease

)

for Pepe

 

[feralvr]

Now as far as the pancreas goes, is Pepe now on pain meds?  Anything related to the pancreas is very painful as far as I know, so I would think pain meds are in order.  Those meds you listed are NOT for pain BTW.  The cerenia is to help with his appetite, and, of course, vitamin B-12 is a vitamin!

Pain meds are not always warranted for Pancreatitis in some cases but surely this should be addressed. Pipsqueak has officially been diagnosed with Pancreatitis and IBD and what has been helping him tremendously is the addition of Nexabiotic. 1/2 capsule AM/PM. I have also been adding in 1/4 capsule twice daily of this: recommended by a trusted comrade BUT.... Check with your vet before adding in anything that anyone suggests here online. I think, though, it would behoove one to discuss probiotic therapy with a Pancreatic cat with one's vet.

And, I agree, that we must feed our cats what they will eat, even if it goes against their particular diagnosis. It is quality of life for me, first and foremost, and at the same time trying to sustain their health along with their conditions. Not easy by any stretch but we do our best.

 

[chalupa]

mrsgreenjeens and feralvr thank you for your reply. Pepe is not on meds yet. The concern is pancreatic cancer not pancreatitis, is this the same thing? I'm hoping my relative is open to raw. I sent her your links and more. I think she is skeptical about probiotics though even for herself maybe. I think she read or heard something negative or had a bad experience. I found this pare from felinenutrition site it mentions the importance of calcium vs phosphorous ratio. It says bones do the trick for balance in raw food. Does this mean bones will be ok? It's hard to find frozen raw without bone. I know there is rad cat but she can't get that where she is I think. All she can get is primal and natures logic. http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-kidney-disease-phosphorus-and-raw-diets

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Radcat is not available where I live either, so I ordered it to be shipped to me via the internet and paid for shipping.  As far as I know, it is the only commercially prepared raw that doesn't use the actual bone for the calcium source.  Our Vet specifically discussed with us that we should NOT use bone as it is high in phosphorus, and that's what we are trying to lower.  (higher phosphorus is harder on the kidneys)  

I think first and foremost, though, your relative needs to see if Pepe is even open to eating raw.  With some cats, they know instinctively that raw meat is a food

.  With other cats, they think it's poison and don't want it near them 

.  It can be a real process even getting them to just TRY it, let alone get them to eat it at every meal.  That being said, she should probably "test the waters" first before investing lots of money being much of the food.   I think Primal actually has a variety pack of four different "flavors" that she might be able to find and try out, because even if he likes one flavor, he might not like another.  Before that, even, she can just try giving him a little piece of chicken or strip of beef or lamb and see if he'll eat it.  I would NOT give him any ground meats purchased from the grocery store, however, especially since he's not 100% healthy and she's opposed to probiotics. 

As far as pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer being the same?  No, they are not.  Cancer is cancer, and pancreatitis is inflammation of the pancreas, which is usually quite painful.

 

[feralvr]

I am sorry to hear that Pepe may have pancreatic cancer. Pepe.

Rad Cat would also be my choice and one that I too feed. I was able to get a local natural pet food store near me to stock it as their distributor was willing. It is coming to the Midwest (Rad Cat) but on such a small scale. You can order Rad Cat directly and have it shipped from Only Natural Pet http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/boulderstore.aspx I have not ordered from then in quite some time but used to be on the auto ship option which did help save some money on each container. Just some info. in case Pepe's owner's are interested in trying it for Pepe.

 

[chalupa]

mrsgreenjeens and feralvr thank you for all your help! I buy rad cat in chicago at a local independent healthy pet store that is luckily really close. I feed my cats a variety, they won't eat raw all the time, I give them different kinds of raw too. My relative is in California, in the burbs, not sure if they have rad cat at their pet store or if she will look for it. I know he is a picky eater and have a feeling they don't think he will eat raw, she said she would try. If I lived close would bring her some. All I can do is suggest . the no bones thing will only discourage them from trying raw , have a feeling, unfortunately. Thank you shod for all the info!

 

[cocheezie]

FF cod, sole, shrimp has the 2nd highest wet food phosphorus content.

 

[chalupa]

Hi cocheezie cod, sole and shrimp fancy feast flavor is what my relative said is her cats favorite flavor or something. Particularly remember her mentioning this flavor when I was trying to get my other cat to eat last summer. I should tell her, she has two senior cats with kidney issues. Thanks!

 

[chalupa]

I found this chart from catinfo.org.  http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf Has the phosphorous numbers in the raw food. I was happy Rad Cat lamb seemed very low compared to others, but turkey was much higher. Natures Logic beef has good numbers, where chicken was very high, and chicken is in my freezer. Also I have primal Beef and Salmon which is very high, luckily have two cats. This chart will be very useful.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

 
I found this chart from catinfo.org.  http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf Has the phosphorous numbers in the raw food. I was happy Rad Cat lamb seemed very low compared to others, but turkey was much higher. Natures Logic beef has good numbers, where chicken was very high, and chicken is in my freezer. Also I have primal Beef and Salmon which is very high, luckily have two cats. This chart will be very useful.

Just remember, this chart is over two years old.  I know Radcat has changed their formula (started using eggshell powder vs bonemeal) since this chart was done, but not sure about the others.  You could always go to their website now to see what their new percentages are, or call them if they aren't listed. I'm sure Primal lists theirs on their website, since I used to feed it to my kidney cat.

 

[chalupa]

Thanks a lot @mrsgreenjeens  didn't realize the chart was old and formulas changed. I was surprised that rad cat was so high.

 

[chalupa]

So how do I reply to someone who thinks of raw pet food in this way? >I still prefer some educational background with substantiating information.
I don't like the handling of raw by whoever handled it
Before I got it...which is a lot...and then, me.
One crucial thing let out of raw if the blood which is so necessary for digestion. Lots of animals killed in the wild are sick animals too...
We are convinced food prepared for cats definitely are treated more poorly than for humans with less health department intervention.

 

[furmonster mom]

If they insist on feeding commercial wet foods to their kitties, try to get them to see the benefit of grain free; carnivores are not supposed to be eating grains.

Also, they can lower the phosphorus levels by replacing a portion of the food with cooked egg whites, they are a good source of protein without the extra phos.  Another thing they can use is a phosphorus binder such as Aluminum Hydroxide. 

I alternate between both methods for my 18 year old who has kidney issues. 

I replace ¹/₂ oz of the daily food with egg whites on "even" days: so, since she gets two 2 oz meals a day (raw), I mix in ¹/₄ oz egg whites with 1 ³/₄ oz food for each meal. 

On "odd" days I add in AH to the full 2 oz meals.  I get the AH from my vet, and use the measurement she recommended.

 

[chalupa]

Thanks furmonster mom I will mention it, although, think I did, their vet may not be Into it. They are open to home cooked meals, something I know nothing about, I tend to be at work more than home during awake hours, so my cats get only commercial food. I might post in another forum to get so e recipes for them if possible.

 

[furmonster mom]

The egg whites and Aluminum Hydroxide methods can both be used with commercial wet foods.

I've edited my post to be a little clearer on how I substitute, hope it made sense.

 

[chalupa]

@Furmonster Mom  thanks, I know the egg whites info might come in very handy, I found out they are cooking for their cats more than I thought. I posted for some recipes for them in the forum, worried the cats may not be getting everything they need though.