My first cooked chicken cat food!

[ldg]

Medora, can this be corrected by using Alnutrin with NO calcium, and using the MCHA to balance the meat for the calcium - which automatically adds phosphorus because it is freeze dried bone?

 

[mschauer]

Thank you for sharing that.

It's interesting what she says about the energy density. As far as I know the only way the calculator can adjust the energy density without adding another ingredient is by increasing the water. I guess that could result in the phosphorus going too low. I'll have to play with the calculator to see what it does when the calorie density starts getting high. I actually already did that a bit but I didn't see any adjustment. I was able to get a recipe with energy of 5 ME. But, I think I had the water % set to 0. Maybe the calculator respected that so to speak and so couldn't adjust.

Interesting.

 

[peaches08]

Does anyone know the list of meats that she is talking about? So that people know their options with the Alnutrin with Calcium supplement?

Although, someone dealing with CRF may want to know the lower phosphorus meats too...

 

[mschauer]

Medora, can this be corrected by using Alnutrin with NO calcium, and using the MCHA to balance the meat for the calcium - which automatically adds phosphorus because it is freeze dried bone?

I've done some more thinking on this whole issue.

First, I want to clarify that the only reason cooked foods might be consided higher in calories is because of moisture lose during cooking. That is easily countered by adding back the cooking liquids and adding additional water that may have been lost through evaporation.

Second, I think the phosphorus problem she is alluding to is exactly the one I referred to as the mistake I made in my analysis using Alnutrin. Phosphorus is lost when it leaches out into the cooking liquid during cooking. But it is 100% reclaimed (according to the USDA) if the cooking liquids are used in making the food. So if we use the ingredient nutrient profile for cooked beef from the USDA which assumes cooking liquids are discarded but we actually use those liquids our recipe will appear to have less phosphorus than it actually has. If we than add enough Alnutrin to fill in the other nutrients our Ca will appear to be much higher than we intend. But in reality it isn't. 

So, I think either Marta isn't aware that phosphorus isn't actually lost when cooking unless the cooking liquids are discarded or she, understandably, doesn't want to deal with not being able to just use the USDA nutrient profiles as is especially given that Alnutrin was never intended to be used with cooked foods.

I'm planning on modifying my analysis program to use the raw ingredient amounts for those nutrients that are 100% reclaimed by using the cooking liquids. 

So, I'm pretty sure that either Alnutrin w/calcium or Alnutrin w/o calcium can be used with cooked foods. The online calculator on the other hand has very limited use when it comes to a cooked food. And of course it doesn't contain an option to use the w/o calcium version of Alnutrin.

 

[franksmom]

Medora, can this be corrected by using Alnutrin with NO calcium, and using the MCHA to balance the meat for the calcium - which automatically adds phosphorus because it is freeze dried bone?

So does freeze dried bone have enough phosphorus then? I am planning on using TCI feline which uses bone instead of eggshells so should this still be a worry?

 

[ldg]

So does freeze dried bone have enough phosphorus then? I am planning on using TCI feline which uses bone instead of eggshells so should this still be a worry?

I've done some more thinking on this whole issue.

First, I want to clarify that the only reason cooked foods might be consided higher in calories is because of moisture lose during cooking. That is easily countered by adding back the cooking liquids and adding additional water that may have been lost through evaporation.

Second, I think the phosphorus problem she is alluding to is exactly the one I referred to as the mistake I made in my analysis using Alnutrin. Phosphorus is lost when it leaches out into the cooking liquid during cooking. But it is 100% reclaimed (according to the USDA) if the cooking liquids are used in making the food. So if we use the ingredient nutrient profile for cooked beef from the USDA which assumes cooking liquids are discarded but we actually use those liquids our recipe will appear to have less phosphorus than it actually has. If we than add enough Alnutrin to fill in the other nutrients our Ca will appear to be much higher than we intend. But in reality it isn't. 

So, I think either Marta isn't aware that phosphorus isn't actually lost when cooking unless the cooking liquids are discarded or she, understandably, doesn't want to deal with not being able to just use the USDA nutrient profiles as is especially given that Alnutrin was never intended to be used with cooked foods.

I'm planning on modifying my analysis program to use the raw ingredient amounts for those nutrients that are 100% reclaimed by using the cooking liquids. 

So, I'm pretty sure that either Alnutrin w/calcium or Alnutrin w/o calcium can be used with cooked foods. The online calculator on the other hand has very limited use when it comes to a cooked food. And of course it doesn't contain an option to use the w/o calcium version of Alnutrin.

It SEEMS the problem is not the supplement OR the amount of phosphorus, but the assumptions made by the calculator.

 

[mschauer]

Medora, can this be corrected by using Alnutrin with NO calcium, and using the MCHA to balance the meat for the calcium - which automatically adds phosphorus because it is freeze dried bone?

So does freeze dried bone have enough phosphorus then? I am planning on using TCI feline which uses bone instead of eggshells so should this still be a worry?

You'll have to contact TC Feline to get guidelines for using their product with cooked ingredients. Only they can say whether it can used like that or not.

 

[mschauer]

It SEEMS the problem is not the supplement OR the amount of phosphorus, but the assumptions made by the calculator.

 The assumption being that the cooking liquids aren't preserved.

 

[ldg]

Wait - so to use the Alnutrin online calculator when making a cooked food... it doesn't work?

Or it works ... IF you use the RAW food equivalent of what you're cooking when using the calculator, and then add back all the pan drippings or water used to cook the meat... and "some extra" to account for moisture loss due to evaporation?

 

[mschauer]

Wait - so to use the Alnutrin online calculator when making a cooked food... it doesn't work?

Or it works ... IF you use the RAW food equivalent of what you're cooking when using the calculator, and then add back all the pan drippings or water used to cook the meat... and "some extra" to account for moisture loss due to evaporation?

Here's what I believe (assuming in both cases what you actually use is cooked ingredients):

If you select cooked ingredients in the online calculator, use the amount of Alnutrin the calculator says to use and you discard the cooking liquids, the calculator works.

If you select raw ingredients in the online calculator, use the amount of Alnutrin the calculator says to use and keep the cooking liquids, the calorie calculation will be off because of the unknown amount of moisture that evaporated during cooking.  The calorie information being off *may* result in the calculator not calculating the correct amount of Alnutrin to use. Also, the nutrient profile won't be quite right because of the nutrients permanently lost during cooking.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I'm making another batch of home cooked food today...this time I'm using up the last batch of frozen duck hearts from the freezer, since Callie was the only one who liked them, and she's on a raw strike. I figure maybe she'll like them cooked.  I am "stewing" them with some chicken livers and it smells like Thanksgiving over here

.  Even though they are duck hearts, it smells just like the turkey giblets we cook up for gravy

Now I just have to figure out how much Alnutrin to add.  aye, aye, aye.  All this going back and forth, and no "right" answer, really.  Since it's for Callie, and I'm just trying to get her to eat, period, I'm not concerned with calories, but I AM concerned with nutrition, I'm still going to add the Alnutrin/eggshell based on the raw weight of the hearts + the livers, because I am going to add in all the cooking liquid back into the meat for a soupy concoction.  I think that's what I read was sort of the conclusion, right?  That's what I did with my first two batches, and what Lori did.  Sorry, I still get confused with all the scientific lingo...that's where I get lost

.  (I need it simplified for my simple brain) 

Anyway, I'll let you know how this batch turns out.  Not sure I want to feed this one as a meal...may use it as a appetite enhancer, IF she likes it

 

[mschauer]

Sorry for making everything sound complicated! I'm sure what you are doing is just fine.

I'm just trying to understand how Alnutrin is supposed to be used with cooked ingredients and more importantly how it isn't supposed to be used. I've sent an email to Marta asking her for more information. I'm hoping to come up with some concrete answers soon! 

Bon appetit Callie!  

 

[lcat4]

I hope it's a hit with Callie!

With respect to balancing the cooked food, I'm inclined to agree with mschauer. I'm still in the information gathering mode. Last night I read through the USDA pages that delve into the behind-the-scenes of their nutrient data tables. (BTW, sure cure for insomnia, caught myself napping a couple times). Their methods of cooking don't correlate with foil covered baking with recapture of all reserved liquids. I'm still trying to figure out which of their options is closest to my cooking method. Today I've started reading a journal titled, "The Energetic Significance of Cooking". The technical jargon is making me blink, but it's interesting. i'll let you know if I learn something pertinent.

 

[mschauer]

Just a quick update. I've heard back from Marta and she agrees that when cooking liquids are added back to the food we should be able to use Alnutrin with cooked diets.

I've sent her an analysis I prepared based on 100% retention of minerals after cooking and using Alnutrin. I'll let you know what she thinks.