I'm wishing you and Charlie the best, after all like you other cat he may keep going, cats are so surprising in their strength!
I would make sure he doesn't have problems with teeth first because that infection can lead to other things and weaken his system. My cat was eating but ended up having to have 4 teeth removed that were decaying.I actually contacted my primary vet earlier today about the surgical biopsy - he mentioned to me the possible complications but has said it is very unlikely that any of it would occur. Let alone, based of his last blood test, all his organs were normal he said. He explained how the IV fluids have dextrose/sugar to give him energy so he said Charlie would be fine without eating for 2-3 days.
The thing that got to me today though was that I was watching Youtube videos of actual surgical biopsies, DAMN that looks intense. Whether or not it was to find cancer/lymphoma or something else but the way they go inside the organs and open up the cat is absurd. LIterally cut open in half and the cut islike the size of an adult hand! Don't think with that many stitches I may go through with such procedure...its not even about the money now, that surgery looks insane. Even I saw the Organs themselves some got stitched. I cant even imagine the pain Charlie would be in after.
Another thing is my vet DID NOT answer my question if I went with him to do the biopsy, how long to be off prednisolone. He didnt respond at all. either he missed it or...who knows. But I know he has to be off it at least a week prior to procedure per 2nd vet. He did say grinding of his teeth may mean dental cavity/issues but would need dental xrays apparently (Which i thought he did take that..).
The way Im thinking about this is if i have Charlie on prednisolone weakest dosage per 2nd vet, and then say in few weeks he doesnt get any worse, I wonder then and only then I may consider either re-utlrasound or just biopsy then because he should technically be getting worse if it was large cell lymphoma (as some think it may be based off that other lympoma site). let alone, mass isnt usually involved with SCL or IBD. It could mean possibly his mass is something else.
I will ask the primary vet if I should go that route - hold off on biopsy see if he gets any worse and in mean time have him on pred and/or if not needed, taper it off and just give him mirtazpine and cerenia. Question though, is cerenia safe enough to be given every day? And if he survives on that, just cerenia and mirtazpine, then that might give clue that prednisolone isnt really needed since it didnt help that much out. Thats when id reconsider maybe doing new blood, and ultarsound. Thats what 2nd vet told me, in all likelyhood the internal medicine may ask for their own bloodwork and ultrasound to see what they are dealing with and prehaps suggest a route for medications.
THe only positive thing i see of charlie is that he still eats, but otherwise just sleeps most of the day without hiding...but physically he doesnt seem to be getting any worse as of yet.
Thats probably one thing I didnt say...I second that. And teeth can change in an instant. Your cat won’t cry out if he breaks a tooth. So even if he’s had a dental recently, I recommend getting him new mouth xrays.
Thats probably one thing I didnt say...
He's had broken teeth or a broken tooth( I think) + dental disease for..long time now, since maybe ayear ago or so, but despite my vet saying (it isnt important for now - not the reason he isnt eating) last year during his pancreatitis bout, and now, perhaps it got worse as well and hes in pain. But that mouth pain won't really explain his weight loss or mass inside bowel...
Our 2nd vet did also say he has dental disease but it wasn't the main cause for hi appetite. My primary vet did say grinding teeth can be cavity/dental issue so he said he can take dental xrays aswell if he came for the procedure biopsy. The only thing is...his dental costs was estimated to be $1,500 last year as he needed a tooth extraction...and insurance won't cover it because I dont have it as an option. I could wait for it to ADD the insurance so its covered BUT, then every prexisting condition prior to this renewal of insurance would NOT be covered so this cancer/mass treatment going forward would not be covered as it would be deemed prexisting. So its a complicated...but I definitely think his teeth is having some issue as well, especially since he doesnt want to chew dry food.
Im on my way to get Cerenia and 1mg Mirtazapine to help him out as he had thrown up this morning - primarily liquid with like a brownish color tint it, but was alot of water. Of course he didnt want to eat maybe an hour after...but about 2-3 hours after he resumed eating again. Im assuming also this Cerenia is something that works...same day I guess rather then him needing to take say 3-5days worth of Cerenia before his nauseous wears off?
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I was lucky enough to have a vet that I would email with questions and she would respond when Gems issues started- something I really would recommend since now we can't go into the office, something I wish I would have done in the end. ( I had changed vets to one closer) I have a thread - from my first vet and then invoices from my second- so heres what happened-
Sept 24 2018- found dental disease during visit-blood work good- Gem was at 9lbs. Made appointment for Nov 20 extractions.
Nov 6th 2018 Throwing up dry food( Science Diet) Eating wet and drinking water no problem. Nov 7th okay with dry but asked about diet change- vet didnt think it was needed...as long as she wasnt vomiting. I mentioned that maybe it was teeth related vet said its possible-Gem was still eating-
Nov 20 2018 Gems weight is at 8 1/2 lbs-4 teeth pulled ( she was in stage 3 periodontal disease)the vet gave her Convienia which I later found out stays in their system for up to 2 mos and can cause appetite loss- I can't say no to this enough-Vet seemed to think giving her dry food was ok I didnt agree.
Dec 12 2018- Gem not eating enough shaking head occasionally very concerned.
March 3 2019- took Gem to emergency vet because she had bloody stool- and diarrhea for one of the first times in her life-she had lost a pound. She wasnt vomiting and was eating only wet food, pretty sure she was on Wellness turkey pate. Her pancreatitus snap test was abnormal, low white blood cell count, ropey intestines,muscle wasting, slight heart murmer(in normal range) thyroid, liver and kidneys fine- and remained fine throughout the whole time she was sick. Given probiotics and something for potential parasites-suggested abdominal ultrasound.
March 11 2019 - new stool sample no parasites-
March 12 2019- new vet- weight loss concerns-although she was eating. Gem was at 6.4 lbs-has her blood work redone as requested by emergency vet because sometimes there are false readings- within normal range.
June 17, 2019- Gems weight- 6.4- Edd Senior blood panel- exam
Oct 28, 2019- Gems weight 6.1- Edd Senior blood panel- exam
Feb 3, 2020- Gems weight 6.4 regular exam
April 11, 2020 Gems weight- 5 lbs- Edd Senior blood panel exam- mirtazapine- only used a couple of times because she started eating- was given a hypoallergetic dry food which Gem didnt eat- but she would not eat her wet food anymore- so I got her Royal Canin for digestive issues which she did eat. I didnt like but I was between a rock and hard place because she had to eat something.
June 26 2020= Gems weight 5 lbs- back to original vet because everything was booked at new- 3rd eye showing- . Given b12 shot
check up.
Got her back on wet food- but will only eat Tiki Cat Ahi Tuna- eating up to 9 oz'es a day.
July 20the 2020- Gems weight up to 6lbs- eyes are running and she had stumbled after jumping out of litter box- and seemed to be falling sideways while she walked so had her eyes checked- heart murmer a little louder- kidney values thyroid ok-vet said the eyes running could be a herpes virus flair up which all cats can get. Now I wonder why I had tests done again, and know that the falling over could have been heart related.
Aug 5th 2020- Gems weight 6 lbs- took her in because her breathing was labored- thought because of the previous possible herpes virus diagnosis it was a respiratory infection. She had eaten through the night - had been with us on the couch the night before- I had just gotten her a new bed the day before that she had jumped up on- the morning I was to take her in I thought I we'd be coming home with antibiotics.I'm in Chicago and we are still standing outside- so gave her to the tech and was then told by the vet after exam that she had fluid all around her lungs and that she could die during procedure.That it would be recurring. So I had to decide to euthanize her. She died from the sedative they gave her to calm her down. Of course the worse day of my life.
In the end it was gi lymphoma - this is what the new vet had said. That the cancer makes the heart weak and it can no longer pump. My original vet who I stopped using because she gave no dietary input- said that she had biopsied a cat who had no other symptoms but weight loss and it was gi lymphoma. She also suspected heart disease. I liked both the vets but they came up short in terms of really giving any information throughout- and never talked about the impact of diet- and Science Diet- which is what they all seem to offer and is crap.
Gem was still playful up until the last month-still with us as usual- never had any other symptoms aside from weight loss no matter how much she ate- except for the first few months when it all started- and thats why I kept thinking she'd get better.
For Gem-I really think it all started with her teeth-infection-no matter what else you're treating if they aren't dealt with they cause disease-and make any disease you're going to treat more difficult because of- so they have to be taken just as seriously. I think the damage was done- from the way things went. I wish I had known about this forum during this, thats why I'm giving you this info. I hope it gives you some insight. And if your vet is not offering information thats helping you I would try another- if theres one that only deals with cats thats what I would try-
My thoughts on this (and these are only the thoughts of an internet stranger who had a cat with a different cancer):Thank you so much for that, I hear you on that, about clearing up the dental part. I did hear how it can lead to other diseases too. I'm just more concerned now about the mass if anything, so still considering doing the biopsy but seeing that Youtube video of an example, how they play around with the organs was rather disgusting. Granted, I don't believe they will do same by like taking out all the intestines to find that mass (hope not) and then re-insert the organ and stitch the organ up from where the sample is taken off...Its a very disgusting video to see - Id throw up knowing they did that to my cat...
I do feel somewhat safe considering on the estimate - they wrote - he'd have Fluid Therapy for 3 days, Therapy Analgesic, Therapy Antibiotic, then gets sent home with an Elizabethan collar and clavamox drops 15ml. So in a way with all those treatments, it kind of feels the vet would approach this with alot of care/attention and approach it safely with these therapies provided in clinic.
I just gave my cat Cerenia because he sat for a moment like half hurled up and half sitting up and just staring endlessly in one direction - we thought he was about to throw up again. But he just shook it off I gues, walked around and wanted food. But I placed into his mouth the Cerenia and now he is resting. The question I forgot ot ask is while he is on Prednisolone, can be he be on both or does one interact with the other? I also got the 1mg mirtazapine but will await to see how he feels first.
I know you have alot going on at once- and it is really important that he be able to eat and maintain weight while you decide.Thank you so much for that, I hear you on that, about clearing up the dental part. I did hear how it can lead to other diseases too. I'm just more concerned now about the mass if anything, so still considering doing the biopsy but seeing that Youtube video of an example, how they play around with the organs was rather disgusting. Granted, I don't believe they will do same by like taking out all the intestines to find that mass (hope not) and then re-insert the organ and stitch the organ up from where the sample is taken off...Its a very disgusting video to see - Id throw up knowing they did that to my cat...
I do feel somewhat safe considering on the estimate - they wrote - he'd have Fluid Therapy for 3 days, Therapy Analgesic, Therapy Antibiotic, then gets sent home with an Elizabethan collar and clavamox drops 15ml. So in a way with all those treatments, it kind of feels the vet would approach this with alot of care/attention and approach it safely with these therapies provided in clinic.
I just gave my cat Cerenia because he sat for a moment like half hurled up and half sitting up and just staring endlessly in one direction - we thought he was about to throw up again. But he just shook it off I gues, walked around and wanted food. But I placed into his mouth the Cerenia and now he is resting. The question I forgot ot ask is while he is on Prednisolone, can be he be on both or does one interact with the other? I also got the 1mg mirtazapine but will await to see how he feels first.
It’s possible that the higher dose of pred made him eat more. But that’s not what pred should be used for. There are appetite stimulants that come with far less risk to his health than steroids. Besides. Any treatment course from here is going to require him to taper off steroids. Stick with the schedule and ask the oncologist when and how he would like Charlie off them and for how long before new diagnostics or procedures can be performed. If mirtazapine isn’t as effective as you’d like, there are other options. Don’t use steroids as an appetite stimulant.
If it were my cat, I would prefer a surgeon specialist doing the biopsy than a general vet. Even if the price is higher, the level of expertise and experience would be worth it. Your vet may be able to do the procedure just fine. But how many of those do you suppose he does in a year? Wouldn’t you want more practiced hands especially for the more intricate procedure if they remove the mass and rejoin the intestines?
Is his weight remaining stable?
Do you have a plan for the teeth yet? Whenever he is sedated next either for another ultrasound or a surgery, ask to have mouth Xrays added on.