My cat as diabetes

[toxon]

Hi all

I am the proud mommy of a wonderful male (10 years) cat. I have been treating him for diabetes for 2 years now... I am looking for your comments and experiences about living with a cat like that.  

NOTE: Please excuse my bad righting my first language is French.

 

[frajude]

I would be interested in what you find out.  I have a "feral" kitten who was living under my shed in the country.  When I arrived there he was crying.  I fed him. The next day, he was crying again.  I talked to him and he came up to me. I fed him again.  I was afraid that some coyote would get him with all that noise.  I have had him for 10 months and he is neutered.  He weighs about 15 + pounds.  I am afraid he will either have a heart attack or get diabetes. 

How did you discover it. How do you treat it.

The cats in the picture are not Georgie.  The Persian is Samson and the other Goldie.  Both were also strays found as kittens.

 

[LTS3]

A great web site to learn about diabetes in cats is FelineDiabetes.com

There is a message board there where you can get all sorts of tips and info about how to best manage your diabetic cat. There are members on that board from Canada who speak French and members from ther countries who speak French who would be able to explain things in French.

My previous cat was diabetic for 4 years before he passed away from an illness. HIs diabetes was never really well regulated with insulin and diet but it was far more important to me to have a cat who was otherwise healthy and happy. The insulin shots and frequent blood glucose testing I could handle with no problem at all. The members of the FelineDiabetes.com were extremely helpful with providing tips and support. I also had a very good vet.

 
I would be interested in what you find out.  I have a "feral" kitten who was living under my shed in the country.  When I arrived there he was crying.  I fed him. The next day, he was crying again.  I talked to him and he came up to me. I fed him again.  I was afraid that some coyote would get him with all that noise.  I have had him for 10 months and he is neutered.  He weighs about 15 + pounds.  I am afraid he will either have a heart attack or get diabetes. 

How did you discover it. How do you treat it.

Classic symptoms of diabetes are similar to that in Humans: excessive drinking of water, excessive hunger, losing weight, sugary smelling urine. Some cats may develop diabetic neuropathy in their back legs. Other cats may have a breath that smells like nail polish remover, a dead give away for diabetic ketoacidosis which can be fatal if not treated ASAP by a vet.

Senior age cats over 8 years or so is when diabetes tends to show up. Juvenile diabetes is rare but can happen to younger cats, even kittens. Obesity and a poor quality high carb diet are common causes of diabetes in many cats. Steroid induced diabees can happen and may be temporary until the steroid use is stopped.

The best way to treat diabetes in cats is a combination of insulin and a low carb preferably canned only (or raw) diet. There are several different insulins that can be used in cats. A vet will determine the best one to start a cat on. Some cats do well on pet insulin like ProZinc and Vetsulin. Others do well on Human insulins like Lantus and Levemir.

 

[toxon]

"Merci" for the web sit info...I will most certainly give it a look. 

 

[solomonar]

Unlike in humans, diabetes in cats is sometime reversible. As far as I know, depends very much on the food, if it is of very good quality. Not always, but we have to keep hoping.

The (almost) the same text follows in French.

===

Les gens on fait du diabet d'une facon ireversible. Par contre, les chats on peut renverser la maladie, si ils mangent nourriture de tres bonne qualite. Pas toujour, mais, il faut garder l'espoir.

 

[toxon]

Well, my Toxon  did  get a break from high blood sugar not too long after I put him on specialized food prescribed by my vet. 

It did not last long and my darling cat got back on insulin to control the sugar in is blood.  

It is not easy to get a good control; his blood sugar is always a little bit on the high side but we can only do the best we can. 

He got sick a year ago because is blood sugar was to low…He was vomiting all the time and had to stay at the vet for a couple of days to get back to normal again.

For now he is a happy feline that eat well and like to cuddle and play. So far so good! 

Thank you  Solomonar  for the French translation. The gesture is appreciated. But I can read English 200% better then writing it.

I am afraid that you will suffer more reading me then the other way around. 

 

[toxon]

I will now tell you how we found out Toxon was diabetic…

I have 2 cats (Toxon & Rosie) that are indoor cats so we are using litter boxes.

I noticed one day that there was grayish paw prints on my floors…paw prints of litter powder probably wet with pee all over.

I have my cats already for many years and it never did that before…

One of my cat was peeing too much (I did not know which one) so I went to the vet with both of them, a simple blood test figured that one of them (Toxon) add too much sugar in is blood.  

He is not fat and pretty healthy otherwise.

So there you go!!

 

[frajude]

Is there not an oral tablet to control diabetes like in humans.  I am diabetic and take a pill and have done so since I was diagnosed.  I wonder why cats can not use an oral.   I "googled this" and apparently there are few medications for cats that have been evaluated.  Sadly, insulin requires blood monitoring which I believe is not easy in cats and also based on the meters I have used and seen has an inbuilt error of as much as 20%.  I found this holistic product sold by amazon as well as others and the reviews were good.  It can be added to water.

https://www.vetionx.com/dia-ionx_cat.php?  

You might want to check it out.  Easier on animals and safer than insulin.

 

[LTS3]

 
Is there not an oral tablet to control diabetes like in humans.

There is. It's called Glipizide and it just doesn't work very well. The way it works is by forcing the already burned out pancrease to work even harder to produce insulin. Insulin injections give the pancrease a break and allows it to somewhat heal. Sometimes a short time on insulin is enough to get the pancrease working normally again to proudce its own natural insulin. Pilling a cat daily is hard and stressful to both the cat and the ower. Insulin injections are quick and easy.

 
Sadly, insulin requires blood monitoring which I believe is not easy in cats and also based on the meters I have used and seen has an inbuilt error of as much as 20%.

Daily blood glucose testing is a must for any diabetic, Human or animal IMO. It's essential to know how the insulin or other medicine is working to control blood glucose levels and to know if the level is safe enough for medicine to be taken.

In cats, the most common way to test the blood glucose levels is by pricking the edge of the ear to get a drop of blood for the meter. It doesn't hurt at all and dose not cause any damange or makes the cat afraid of you. There is a bit of a learning curve to get the hang of testing and find out what works best for you and the cat. Many cats don't like it but eventually learn to hold still. Giving a healthy treat after a test helps, too. Paw pad testing is another way to get a drop of blood to test. Some cats just don't like their ears touched so a paw pad is used.

Many people use Human diabetic blood glucose meters to test their diabetic cats. There is a 20% error but many people feel that it is acceptable and they get a pretty accurate reading. There are pet specific meters which are really no different. Plus the test strips for the pet meters are not sold in any store so one must keep track of supplies and order more as needed taking into account shipping time.

There have been studies done to compare home blood glucose monitoring in pets with the fancy meters vets use. The general concensus is that home blood glucse monitoring results are no different than the fancy vet meters. Some studies even recommend home monitroing over vet monitoring.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.235.11.1309?journalCode=javma

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.230.7.1011

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.246.12.1327?journalCode=javma

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195561612002136

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/vcp.12115/full

 
I found this holistic product sold by amazon as well as others and the reviews were good.  It can be added to water.

https://www.vetionx.com/dia-ionx_cat.php?  

You might want to check it out.  Easier on animals and safer than insulin.

Holistic supplements such as these should only be used on the advice and supervision of a vet. These types of supplements do not replace insulin or other medically known treatment of diabetes in cats and other animals.

 

[solomonar]

I do not have sufficient time to dig into this subject, but from the info I have, I doubt the diabetes in cats is a real diabetes.

To make sure what it this disease is, one shall go into the physiological modifications in the cat's body while getting this "diabetes". I doubt is even similar to the human's disease which bears the same name.

In the few months since I adopted my cat I came across an unbelievable amount of myths, confusions and exaggerated suppositions. It looks to me like one wrote years ago something based on the grandma experience and zillion of people copying and recopying the same "info" again and again. Or I found people judging cats as small humans (although almost everywhere the texts starts by "cats are obligate carnivores" it follows by points form human perspective - omnivore...).

The number of reliable veterinary scientific articles is very low (English ones, but I now looking into French literature - I will se whether the situation in this French knowledge corpus is similar) , and most are from the treatment or diagnosis point of view. Remember that the cat cannot be sacrificed like a chicken for experimental purposes. 

Myself I got the habit to doubt every piece of info I found on the internet about cat's physiology and to try judging on my own whether it is reliable or not.

 

[moggielover]

I respectfully disagree, Solomonar.

In cats, the disease process for IDDM and NIDDM (insulin dependent and non insulin dependent diabetes mellitus) is relatively the same as for humans. The body either fails to properly produce, or properly use, insulin to break down and regulate glucose.

Even some of the mechanisms/risk factors are the same, such as obesity, hormonal disease processes, older age, etc., in felines and humans (as well as other species).

If you want proof, visit a veterinary clinic daily for a few weeks. Chances are, at least once, an obese, sluggish kitty will roll through, possibly even with ketoacidosis. A simple glucose test can measure blood sugar. That right there is how you get PROOF of a disease process in another species.

The pysiological "modifications" (did you mean processes?) are darn near similar, as well, in felines and humans:

First, and foremost, the feline pancreas and endocrine system functions essentially the same as any other mammal, human included. Exceptions are the kidney function (cats rely less on water) and gonadal hormones (specifically the female intact feline, being an induced ovulator)

Like humans, the feline pysiological processes of diabetes mellitus are as follows:

*the insufficient use of or deficit supply of insulin by the body causes the cat to start breaking down fat/proteins to use as an alternative energy.
*As a result kitty eats more, but doesn't gain or continues to lose weight (this is the only difference in the physiological processes between felines and humans)
*because of the inability to produce or use insulin to regulate glucose, high sugar levels in the blood stream develops
*because of high blood sugar, kitty develops an increased thirst.
*because of the increased thirst, kitty develops increased urine output.
*because of the high glucose levels, a downstream metabolic cascade leads to peripheral nerve injury through an increased flux of the polyl pathway, enhanced glycation through end products formation, excessive release of cytokines, activation of protein kinase C and exaggerated oxidative stress, as well as other confounding factors, causing diabetic neuropathy.
*diabetic neuropathy can lead to circulation issues via insufficient blood supply due to nerve damage and other factors related to diabetes, to the limbs affected by the disease process.



Symptoms are remarkably similar between felines and humans, as well:
*ravenous appetite
*weight loss (can differ in humans)
*excessive thirst
*excessive urine output


We still do not know the exact mechanism or cause that triggers human diabetes, nor do we, for felines. Underlying risk factors are almost identical between the species, however:

Feline risk factors:
*male cats are more often affected than females
*obesity
*pancreatitis or other pancreatic issues
*other hormonal issues (Cushing's Disease, hyperthyroidsm, etc.)
*older age
*certain medications
*some breed types in specific areas of the world


As in humans, in felines, we found out about normal and high blood glucose levels via drawing blood samples and comparing, thus creating an average of values. We were also able to determine that felines who fell out of the "average" range (high or low)exhibited symptoms of a disease process. Low levels (hypoglycemia)produced confusion, dizziness, shakiness, hunger, headaches, anxiety, heart issues, and coma (if low enough and untreated) among other symptoms. High levels (hyperglycemia) produced increased thirst, weight loss, increased hunger, increased urine output, increased urine sugars, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, increased ketones in blood and urine (ketoacidosis), and even coma (if uncorrected).

I am all for taking into consideration, the physiologic differences between species, however, with some disease processes, no matter the species, the process itself, symptoms, and treatment, are roughly the same. Diabetes is one of these processes.

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/Health_Information/brochure_diabetes.cfm

As for cats, from a physiologic standpoint, as far as their unique modifications go (such as being obligate carnivores, induced ovulators, deriving most of their liquid intake via their prey sources, etc.) little would change in how their bodies process any sugars. The pancreas would (and does) act in the same way as a human pancreas. The ONLY differing equation would be the way in which the animal became diabetic; the disease itself is still the same. The cause is (or could be, as I said above, we are still not sure, even for humans) different. It could be we are feeding them diets not suitable for their bodies (just like with us). It could be a genetic mutation or fault. We just don't know.

 

[solomonar]

I must see the scientific sources of all these considerations, to believe. Sources mean Scientific Journals or scientific books. Most preferably - indexed. or at least Open Journals Directory. The brochure of Cornell does not fell into this category, although they may be right. Or may be not.

Many colleges want people to come to them, because it is a huge business. I am reticent to believe the vets who declaw cats... and do unnecesarry surgeries for money. Myself I rather starve myself than declaw a cat for no medical reason. I am not saying that the Cornnell vets declaw cats. But this college is in a country where declawing was largerely practiced. So I have all reasons to be very careful.

Not related to the above: one vet reccomanded to neuter the cat to cure the stud tail... The owner further treated the cat by a shampoo....reccomanded by another vet. You may find the story here in the TCS. They are very very good vets trained in such colleges, though. Examples also here on TCS.

I am not saying Cornell website is a bad source of info, they could be, I do not know. I respect their commitment and efforts. But being famous is not a guarantee in the scientific world. Every college has good and bad.

I am just saying that I doubt all non-referenced sources, to the moment I get proof for contrary. 

Anyway, I prefer the Scientific Journals - if I can find an article about the subject. If I cant, I simply say "I do not know and I doubt to the moment I get the proof". No proof means doubt for me.  But this is me, everyone has his/her own level of trusting.

===

I am not saying that diabetus melitus in cat is different from the one in humans. I am saying I doubt. Having similar symptoms or similar risk factors does not mean it is the same disease. This is my opinion, not a guidance or advise.

 

[moggielover]

Whoa! I am a vet tech from the USA, and while it IS true that declawing used to be a big thing here (along with the REST of the developed world), it has since HUGELY fallen out of favor. I take a bit of offense to your not-so-generalized statement. True, it has yet to be fully illegal here, but minds and opinions have drastically changed in regards to this barbaric process.

As to scientific publications:
Even many OPEN ACCESS publications are unreliable, as someone is PAYING a publishing company to put their paper out there, no matter how false the information may be. As an example, if I wanted to, and had enough money to, I could LITERALLY write a paper on the benefits of drinking liquified cow manure (benefits that are obviously, complete, utter, well, cow maure) AND pay a publishing company a very handsome fee to get my paper out there! And you think highly esteemed colleges are money grubbing machines!

As an example, there was a "chocolate diet" hoax a couple of years back that made the news! It all started with someone with a lot of spare time and money, who proved just how gullible the media is, and how open access journals will often just publish a paper, WITHOUT peer review. Just some food for thought, before you decide that open access and scientific journals are the ideal and best way to receive "true" information.

 

[moggielover]

As far as some journals, there are MANY! Have fun! First one is quite relevant to feline diabetes and how similar it is to human type 2 diabetes!:

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/aoas.2015.15.issue-1/aoas-2014-0067/aoas-2014-0067.xml

https://www.omicsonline.org/scholarly/feline-diabetes-journals-articles-ppts-list.php

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0127794

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.14618/full

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.14360/full

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/vetcompass/news/epidemiology-of-feline-diabetes-mellitus

 

[LTS3]

I also disagree with Solomonar. Do you personally have any experience with feline diabetes? If not, I respectfully ask that you not to question everything that is currently known about the disease and current methods of treatments. If you don't understant feline diabetes, it would be better to educate yourself about the disease than to question everything about it and say it's not a real disease. I don't know how feline diabees is treated in your country (Romania), but in the US and many other countries, the standard treatment is insulin and diet.

 
The number of reliable veterinary scientific articles is very low (English ones, but I now looking into French literature - I will se whether the situation in this French knowledge corpus is similar) , and most are from the treatment or diagnosis point of view.

There are many published studies and articles on feline diabetes in well known respected veterinary journals with peer review, from the underlying causes to new methods of treatments. Here are just a few that are available online:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.553.8559&rep=rep1&type=pdf

http://www.rednacionaldeveterinarias.com.uy/articulos/endocrino‏/comparativeDBTgato-perro.pdf

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1098612X15571880

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s_mellitus/links/00b4952bf85543a6c2000000.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s_mellitus/links/5805b44a08aef87fbf3bc2d6.pdf

The Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association has a searchable list of all published aritcles. Here are some for feline diabetes: http://avmajournals.avma.org/action/doSearch?AllField=feline+diabetes&SeriesKey=&submit=Go

The Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery has more published articles and studies: http://journals.sagepub.com/action/doSearch?SeriesKey=jfma&AllField=feline+diabetes

Journal of Small Animal Practice: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/advanced/search/results

This is getting way off the original question from the OP which was to see who else on TCS has experience with diabetic cats. If Solomonar wishes to further debate whether diabetes actually exists in cats or not, perhaps the IMO forum would be a better place.

 

[Brian007]

@Solomonar  are you a scientist?  Scientific truth is subjective, and subject to manipulation when different criteria are applied.  Facts are empirical but scientific facts are fitted to suit the hypothesis, with the facts that show the hypothesis being included whilst those facts that go against the hypothesis being conveniently left out.  Now, whilst you may all argue til you're blue in the face that one scientific research paper is more factual than another, it doesn't really make for the kind of proof you are looking for.  What would it take for this to be proved to you?  @moggielover  and @LTS3  have all the veterinary proof right in front of them, they are empirically aware because they are dealing with feline diabetes in the real world, and not in one scientific journal or another.  They witness first hand the symptoms of the disease and therefore are more qualified to judge the similarities and differences to human diabetes than men in white coats, writing papers.  It is absurd for you to question whether feline diabetes exists.  The symptoms of a disease are not prone to change and because diabetes concerns the pancreas' ability to regulate insulin, and in cats whose pancreases' ability to regulate insulin is effected in the same way that is shown to be diabetes, then surely those cats do indeed have feline diabetes.  I'm not explaining this very well.  And this is the only post I will offer on this matter.  I'm just curious as to why you require academic scientific facts when medically qualified veterinarians know what the definition of a disease is and when to apply it to any given animal  And why you are arguing this at all? 

 

[foxden]

toxon
Your thread seems to have been hijacked. I had my Patches with feline diabetes for almost 6 years before kidneys and her overall health failed and I was faced with the decision to let her leave me.
Her diabetes was easily controlled with only 2 or 3 units of (human-type) insulin twice daily. We gave the shots sub-q in the scruff of her neck while she was eating. We did not require daily sugar testing because her A1C levels showed good control over the times we took her to the vet for routine testing. I'm sure that we tested A1C monthly or if her health or behavior changed. She lived to be almost 20 years old. We were fortunate her diabetes was easy to control. I know it is often very difficult

 

[toxon]

Wow big debate...

I, myself have been dealing with diabetes for many years using meds and insuline for treatment...It is probably why I could associate too much pee from one of my cat with something wrong.

I am using my own equipment for testing blood sugar on my cat.
On the ears works best for us and yes it take some practice for both of us to get the hang of it.
Lots of petting and kiss kisses before and after works great...we dot it at the same place same time every time and my cat know the drill and is ok whit that.
I must admit that testing him was the hardest part of the hole thing at first.

As for the debate if it is the same disease for human and cats, I can only tell you from live experience being both diabetic my cat and I that the similarity between us are to much the same to ignore...so call it what you want...invent a new word for it (I perhaps catabetese)

We both have to use the same type of medication and have to control our diet to stay as healty as possible.

PS: The amount of info everybody contributed so far here is super cool! Thank you all for that!

I still would like to read more about people experiences with there diabetic cats. How they manage, tricks and anecdotes...

 

[LTS3]

I still would like to read more about people experiences with there diabetic cats. How they manage, tricks and anecdotes...

A few members I found who have experience:

@Jamesharvey (posted this great thread http://www.thecatsite.com/t/318949/does-your-cat-have-diabetes-if-so-please-read)

@sivyaleah

@fastnoc

There are more members who have posted looking for advice on diabetic cats but they have not posted in a long time and may not even come to TCS anymore.

Did you join the FelineDiabetes.com message board? You'll get more tips and advice from members there. It's a really active board so you'll get respones pretty quickly.

 

[fastnoc]

Wow didn't expect a tag from here been awhile!

Yep my Wilbur has Diabetes. While I'm not going to even enter the debate on whether it's real or the same in humans or not, it's irrelevant to me. what I know is my cat has too much glucose in his blood and will die if I don't treat him, so i do, at all cost.

I can tell you I've learned a bunch from my little chunk.

I've had to make serious changes to diet. I have 3 rescues i've gotten over the years (actually 2008 is when I got the first of these 3, and came here for help). Currently to help Wilbur, I had to change to special food to help keep his blood sugar down. Since he's a grazer I have to keep dry food out. i now buy Hills Prescription Diet W/D Glucose which is NOT CHEAP. I found chewy.com to be the best consistent price at $65 for a 16lb bag. But since all my cats graze, that means all had to make this change. They did, but now i go through a bag every 4.5 weeks. i've got auto re-order on

I will say this, I have learned the hard way veterinary offices differ GREATLY on advice, prescriptions, methods, treatment and pretty much everything else.

I went to a vet where they knew I had finance problems for a bit, yet they had no problem giving my ProZinc @ $130 per bottle. I moved to AZ in October last year, my new vet? not only reduced his dosage (which is EXTREMELY high at 10u twice daily) 10% he also changed him over to VetSulin which costs $55 per bottle. VetSulin apparently works a bit faster but doesn't last as long. whatever, all I know is Wilbur's glucose count has dropped to mid 100's except about 1 to 2 hours before feeding time. Then it goes up to 220 just before time for a new shot.

I have to have special food to tempt him to eat at exactly 12 hours, but I've found (sadly) tuna is the only thing that works. I don't want to feed him a lot of it, so i feed him about 1/4 teaspoon each time (a TINY amount). just enough that I know it will be safe to inject him.

I also learned that you MUST move around the injection site. Don't just give them in the neck or they'll get scar tissue and that actually makes it harder for the insulin to get in and reduces its effectiveness.

It took me a while to get it figured out, but I give him shots all over now. anything behind the head is safe according to my vet. I usually alter right and left side and just pull a tiny bit of hair up, enough to separate the skin from the muscle (because that's what hurts is when you poke into the muscle) and honestly? 9 times out of 10 he doesn't even notice.

Anyway, if anyone new about this has questions I'm happy to help if I can.

felinediabetes is a great site and helped me for learning. they helped me

 Now honestly i do check Wilbur's blood as much as he'll let me but he DOES NOT like his ears being touched or his feet. and I mean BAD. i am lucky to get blood from him once every 3 days. But i do try multiple times per day. I have to catch him in deep sleep to even get close.

I told the vet this and he said that's fine as long as it stays consistent and is never too high.

Wilburs blood sugar was so high he started having seizures. my old vet really stunk and finally had me convinced he had epilepsy, they put him on phenobarbital twice daily for seizures. I get here? the vet says he highly doubts this and has me wean Wilbur off. he said he's pretty sure those seizures were from high sugar. Think about this, the old vet had me get him 2u am and 4u pm. but i dind't get control of his sugar until i got him all the way to 10u. Now he doesn't have seizures anymore, and I don't have to stuff pills in him twice a day. it's so much better now.

I have to take him in for something called a glucose or fructose something. it's the same idea as a glucose curve but it's about 3 times as expensive and supposed to be much better.

Thankfully my income re-stabilized, so I can afford it now.

I would feel much better if I could get sugar readings at least twice a day, but i'm doing the best I can. All i know is my little boy is healthy and happy. and so am I

PS: i did find that wet food is better than dry (although I've actually seen people say both ways) but i was told by multiple vets if I can't afford super expensive wet food, get Fancy Feast but ONLY the classic pate. Wilbur would only lick the outside and leave the chunks. so I bought a handheld blender. i mix in 1-1 water to pate, blend it up into stinky soup, and feed him that which he does eat.; he loves it