Mixing dry food with raw

[anju]

We have two and a half cats - the half pint is a kitten we rescued last week, about 5 - 6 weeks old now.

I live in a small town in India - cats here are not generally considered as house pets yet, although that is probably changing. So because of this, cat supplies are almost impossible to find, even online. Try asking for taurine or cat supplements and they will look at you blankly.

The one thing we do get here is cat food, dry and wet. Brands - Whiskas, Royal Canin and Iams, Drools, Kitekat, Meow. Of these, I always buy Royal Canin.

An online store ships Taste of the Wild feline food, which I think is very good, however, they only ship in sizes of 15 lbs(!!), and I don't think it's good to store that much for that long.

For the past two years, we've been feeding the older two a mixture of beef and beef offal (we've tried chicken, which they will not even smell, and rabbit, which is too expensive here to be sustainable) mixed with dry kibble and some additions (fish oil, a bit of psyllium husk).

How this came about: we fed them only wet Royal Canin food at first. I started reading about the raw diet earlier, and decided to try it. Like I mentioned, they took to beef right away. I know chicken is closer to their natural diet, but they will not eat chicken even if they haven't eaten the whole day, and I usually cave in before the day is over and feed them what they like.

They are extremely fussy eaters, and will eat only lean beef. I always have to ask the butcher to be sure not to get any fat in anywhere. I put the meat in some warm water and wash, then roughly grind with kibble and fish oil in a food processor.

Their favourite is dry Royal Canin kibble. There was a point where my female cat starved herself for two days, eating maybe a mouthful of fresh sardines, in order to be fed kibble - again, I caved in, after trying just about everything else available to me.

My concern is calcium/phosphorus content - which I recently read about. They refuse to eat even the smallest bones (unless in fish, which we do not feed them more than once a month), and will turn away if they get boney meat. Should I give them supplements? I also searched around for bone meal, which strangely enough does not seem to be available anywhere here.

Any suggestions? They are (touch wood) healthy, with the most amazingly soft and shiny coats, plenty of energy (unless it's summer and too hot), strong clean teeth, and poop very healthily (about once a day or once every 36 hours, soft yet firm bullets, yellowish brown). The big boy weighs 12 lbs, the girl about 7 lbs and the littlest guy (who we are feeding KMR and wet Royal Canin food now) weighs just 1 lb (he was starved and malnutritioned when he found him, and has gained 9 ounces in the past one week).

 

[ritz]

Thank you for going to the trouble of finding suitable food; I know it's hard in India.

Regarding supplements:  calcium is really really important, even more so for growing kittens.  You absolutely should give some supplements, although depending on how much of the dry and wet food, I don't know how much.  Too much calcium will cause constipation.

In India, can you order from Amazon?   I don't know if HareToday will ship supplements overseas--they have Alnutrin, which is excellent (doesn't need refrigeration).  Can you get eggs--you can process the egg shells to provide required calcium.  You must also balance phosphors. 

You can get Taurine from beef heart (or really any kind of heart). 

I'm surprised they wouldn't chew/eat rabbit bone because rabbit bone is small and soft.  Do you make sure meat is attached to the bone?  Can you get Cornish hen--they are smaller than chickens.  Have you tried smashing the bone to make the pieces tiny?

 

[anju]

Thank you for going to the trouble of finding suitable food; I know it's hard in India.

Regarding supplements:  calcium is really really important, even more so for growing kittens.  You absolutely should give some supplements, although depending on how much of the dry and wet food, I don't know how much.  Too much calcium will cause constipation.

In India, can you order from Amazon?   I don't know if HareToday will ship supplements overseas--they have Alnutrin, which is excellent (doesn't need refrigeration).  Can you get eggs--you can process the egg shells to provide required calcium.  You must also balance phosphors. 

You can get Taurine from beef heart (or really any kind of heart). 

I'm surprised they wouldn't chew/eat rabbit bone because rabbit bone is small and soft.  Do you make sure meat is attached to the bone?  Can you get Cornish hen--they are smaller than chickens.  Have you tried smashing the bone to make the pieces tiny?

Thanks for those suggestions, Ritz. I'll look into calcium supplements for cats.

I've thought about Amazon and the shipping costs make it prohibitive for me - a one-time thing would be fine, but do not think it would be sustainable in the long-term.

Good to know about the taurine, they do get beef heart in their diet. That is another reason we mix the beef with the dry food, we figure the vitamins and minerals in the dry food is good for them if they cannot get it in another way. But the main aim is to get the taste of the dry food in there, which they adore. They will sulk if there is no kibble in their plates somewhere (like when we feed them the occasional sardine).

Again, rabbit is hard to get and very expensive because of that reason. They pretty much ate around the bones the couple of times we did try it.

No to cornish hens as well - it is so frustrating that I cannot give my babies optimal stuff because of where I live!

I've tried smashing the chicken bones up with a hammer and feeding it to them very early on, but they only ate chicken a few times, so it wasn't feasible to get both chicken and beef just to smash up the chicken bones. We humans in the family do not eat chicken (or indeed meat) more than a couple of times a month, if at all.

Eggs in plenty, yes - but not free-range, even if one was willing to pay a fortune for it, which we are. Nobody seems to keep hens in this town any more. Would it be ok to give them those eggshells ground up? That would be a great solution since we eat a lot of eggs. How would I balance phosphorus/meat with that?

 

[tobykitten]

The general ratio for calcium to phosphorus is 2:1 - so for every 1 part meat add 2 parts eggshell (or other calcium resource).

 

[ldg]

The general ratio for calcium to phosphorus is 2:1 - so for every 1 part meat add 2 parts eggshell (or other calcium resource).

????? What measures do you refer to?

Because a proper calciumhosphorus ratio for cats is about 1.1:1. But this is measured using the amount of phosphorus and calcium in the food (meat and organs are high in phosphorus with very little calcium) and the phosphorus and elemental calcium in the source. Bone has a lot of phosphorus in it; but bone has about twice as much calcium as phosphorus in it.

I don't have the information in grams for the measures, but if you finely grind the eggshells, it takes 1/2 teaspoon to balance one pound of meat. For balancing each meal, it takes 1/32 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell powder to balance the phosphorus in one ounce of meat. Organs like liver and kidney require 1.5x that because they contain more phosphorus - so 3/64 teaspoons per ounce (though most kitties get the runs if you feed organs as a meal. They usually need to be fed about 50/50 with meat, so measuring can get tricky if you don't have very small measuring spoons).

Here is a discussion and how-to: http://holisticat.com/esp.html

 

[maple syrup]

Have you tried Quail?  I am sure you can get that or other small birds in India at the meat market.  I lived in India for a couple of years, and they have these really great food processors - the stainless steel ones that I've never seen here in Canada.  They are pretty heavy grade and you probably already have one in your kitchen.   I would try getting a small chicken and have it curry cut and then put some in the processor - bones and all.  Maybe add some beef to the mix for flavor, and see if they will eat it that way.  We used to go to one of the chicken stalls where you choose your live chicken and they butcher it for you right there.  Maybe a farm chicken like that might be most appealing to them.

My kitten really didn't 'get' what was so great about poultry.  I guess it doesn't really smell... and sometimes it smells ...well ... fishy. And he is still fussy about it.  I think it is what the chickens are fed here in North America  - sometimes they smell fishy.  There have been a couple of times where I purchased chicken at a specific market here and and that day offered it to him.  He was not impressed and acted like his placemat was his litter box, pawing the floor around his meal to try to cover it over with litter.  My analysis of the chicken was that it was fishy smelling, and Immediately trashed it.

It will also take some getting used to chewing bones, so grinding might be the answer.  And if not use a meat mallet to beat them up.  But this works best with a quail or other smaller bird initially. - or even chicken necks. 

Good luck!

 

[Willowy]

I'm sure you can use human calcium supplements as well. It depends on the product how much you would use. If you could get calcium carbonate capsules (with powder inside), I'm pretty sure you'd use the same amount as eggshell. But since you eat eggs a lot, eggshell would be cheaper!

And, yeah, even if you were going for a 2:1 cal/phos balance, it certainly wouldn't mean 2 parts calcium to one part meat! Yuck, it would be really hard to eat that much calcium powder! :tongue2: There is a certain amount of phosphorus in meat, the amount varies by cut and species. You can find the info online. That's what you want to balance.

 

[tobykitten]

http://www.pet-grub.com/holistic_pe...nswers/three_questions_about_calcium_for_pets

http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/calcium-supplementation-for-raw-dog-food-diet.html

Vet recommends 2:1 ratio for both dogs & cats.

 

[mschauer]

The general ratio for calcium to phosphorus is 2:1 - so for every 1 part meat add 2 parts eggshell (or other calcium resource).

http://www.pet-grub.com/holistic_pe...nswers/three_questions_about_calcium_for_pets

http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/calcium-supplementation-for-raw-dog-food-diet.html

Vet recommends 2:1 ratio for both dogs & cats.

The ratio referred to is calcium to phosphorous not eggshell to meat. And there is no single correct ratio. The issue is that phosphorus binds with calcium making the calcium unavailable for utilization by the body. Therefore, there must be more calcium in the diet than there is phosphorus. Various sources will give a suggested calcium to phosphorus range some where within 1.1 - 2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus. 

 

[tobykitten]

I get how it works.

Meat = phosphorus resource, eggshell = calcium resource, and parts is simply a description of the ratio (2:1).

If you want an amount, from the site:

Based on the average phosphorus content of meat, adding 1 teaspoon (5 mL) of ground egg shells helps to provide the body with enough calcium to create the ideal 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

 

[ldg]

Wow, what poorly written answer in that petgrub link discussion of the calciumhosphorus ratio.

It recommends adding 1 teaspoon of eggshell powder to how much meat?

And no mention is made of the fact that when calculating the ratio Ca, it is the amount of elemental calcium that matters. Eggshells are approximately 97% calcium carbonate, which contains approximately 39% elemental calcium.

So when calculating the Ca ratio, it is the amount of elemental calcium in the source that matters.

Again, this is discussed in detail in the Holisticat article on How to Make Eggshell Powder.

 

[mschauer]

I get how it works.

Meat = phosphorus resource, eggshell = calcium resource, and parts is simply a description of the ratio (2:1).

Perhaps it is just the terminology you are using incorrectly. When you wrote:

The general ratio for calcium to phosphorus is 2:1 - so for every 1 part meat add 2 parts eggshell (or other calcium resource).

That means if I use 1 lb of meat I should use 2 lbs of eggshell. When you use "parts of" terminology in speaking of ratios you have to name the things that are actually to be used in proportion not the sources of those things or it doesn't make sense.

 

[peaches08]

Also, isn't it true that about 85% of the phosphorus in the body found in the bones and teeth? Just asking since phosphorus can be a real problem for the folks dealing with CKD kitties.

 

[tobykitten]

The ratio is 2:1.

I'm out -- this place is totally unwelcoming and generally mistrustful of newbies.  If someone suggests something that doesn't align with popular opinion of the resident "experts", they are met with pretentious responses.  I have been treated again and again this way in my time here.

I don't know how you guys stand yourselves.  Have fun without me and your snobbery!

 

[mschauer]

I'm sorry you feel that way but posting confusing or incorrect information isn't helpful to anyone and can in fact do much harm. This forum is all about making sure people are clear about how to safely feed a homemade raw diet to their cats. To that end we all feel responsible for correcting or clarifying information posted by others. 

 

[peaches08]

I was welcomed to TCS with opened arms. *shrugs*

I had nightmares about a certain kitten that was fed a horribly imbalanced diet. That whole mess STILL bothers me. That said, I agree with mschauer 100%. While you, TobyKitten, may understand what you meant to say (hopefully NOT 2 lbs Ca to 1 lb meat), how it came across was incorrect information. It has nothing to do with being new. It has to do with giving correct information. Incorrect information can harm and even kill.

 

[ldg]

I'm sorry you feel that way but posting confusing or incorrect information isn't helpful to anyone and can in fact do much harm. This forum is all about making sure people are clear about how to safely feed a homemade raw diet to their cats. To that end we all feel responsible for correcting or clarifying information posted by others. 

I'd like to make a correction to that, mschauer. "To that end we all feel responsible for correcting or clarifying information posted by anyone."

I've been corrected plenty here, and I'm glad of it. For most of us, it's all about learning and doing things correctly. In the end, what we care about is the kitties. :heart2:
.

Wow, what poorly written answer in that petgrub link discussion of the calciumhosphorus ratio.

Just to be clear, I felt the information provided in the link was poorly written, unclear and confusing. Perhaps that's why your information posted here comes across as confusing? :dk:
.

Also, isn't it true that about 85% of the phosphorus in the body found in the bones and teeth? Just asking since phosphorus can be a real problem for the folks dealing with CKD kitties.

Yes, replacing bone with eggshell powder as a source of calcium is one of the mainstays of creating a homemade diet for kitties with kidney disease / renal failure. :nod:

 

[mschauer]

I'd like to make a correction to that, mschauer. "To that end we all feel responsible for correcting or clarifying information posted by anyone."

I've been corrected plenty here, and I'm glad of it. For most of us, it's all about learning and doing things correctly. In the end, what we care about is the kitties.

.

I'll take that as a clarification rather than a correction since I didn't mean to be implying that anyone would somehow be exempt. 

 

[ldg]

I'll take that as a clarification rather than a correction since I didn't mean to be implying that anyone would somehow be exempt. 

Fair enough. And I'll take that as a correction, because I clearly used the wrong word.

 

[anju]

Thank you everyone for your valuable input, I didn't mean to spark a debate. After much hunting I found a calcium syrup for pets, ProviCal, with the following composition (copied directly from box):

Miicro Crystalline Hydroxy Apatite complex (MCHC): each 20 ml contains

 Calcium -  350 mg

 Phosphorous - 280 mg

 Vit D3 - 1600 IU

 Vit B12 - 20 mcg

Contains approved flavors and coloring agents.

The syrup is a lurid pink color which frankly scares me a little. The dosage on the box says 2.5ml twice daily for cats.

- Should I feed them this instead of going with the eggshell option?

- Is the pink color ok? I'd be wary of eating something that shocking pink, but is it actually harmful?

- Is it ok to give approximately 1ml for the 7 week old kitten? (Based on the dose for cats? There was no dosage specified for kittens)

- I feed the cats about 9 ounces of meat per cat (ie, which is all they eat) without any form of calcium in it. Would the calcium - phosphorous ratio work out to something like the correct amount?