Mickey, my 27 lbs foster and his journey back to a healthy weight

[mschauer]

Week 5 Update

Mickel weighted in at 25:11 (lbsz) tonight. That's only 3 oz down from last week. That's only 0.7% of his body weight. I'm glad his weight is going down but that is too slow!

About mid-week I started him on a mix of Weruva and by Nature foods. The Weruva foods are all very low in calories and fat but high protein. The by Nature products are low calorie with moderate amounts of fat and protein. I think a mix of the two makes for a nice high protein, moderate fat and fairly low in calories food. I was giving him 170 calories which was 7.5 oz of the mixed food. I like that I can cut the calories and he still gets 7.5 oz!

Since his weight loss is still so slow I'm going to cut the calories to 153. That will be about 7 oz, a little more or less depending on which Weruva and by Natural foods I use.

I'm so glad he will eat anything. That makes the process so much easier!

I gave some of the left over Weruva/by Nature mix to Coco, my Bengal, and she loved it! Usually all of mine are very picky about processed foods. It will be interesting to see if the others like it also. Not that I would give it to them on a regular basis since I feed them a raw diet.

Edit: I just did the calculation and the Weruva/by Nature mixture comes out to 11% protein, 3.7% fat and 2.6% carbs. I thought the fat would be a bit higher than that but it's probably good that it isn't. As sedentary as he a lower fat food is probably better although I think the Weruva by it's self is too low in fat.

 

[wolcar]

Congrats on the weight loss.  I'm sure a few ounces off him still makes him feel better.

Do you think he'll notice the calorie cut?

Also, you mentioned (and someone else also mentioned elsewhere) that the Weruva was so low in fat.  Do you know what percentage of a cat's diet SHOULD be fat? 

 

[mschauer]

Congrats on the weight loss.  I'm sure a few ounces off him still makes him feel better.

Thanks! 

Do you think he'll notice the calorie cut?

I hope not. One of the reasons I don't like the Weruva being so low in fat is that studies have shown that the more fat in a food the less is needed to provide cats with a feeling of satiety. But fat is also high in calories so I like using the Weruva to, in affect, create a custom food with the protein/fat/carb I want. On the other hand, because of the satiety affect, maybe feeding a relatively small amount of a high fat food would work also. Hmm, something to think about.

Also, you mentioned (and someone else also mentioned elsewhere) that the Weruva was so low in fat.  Do you know what percentage of a cat's diet SHOULD be fat? 

Define "should". 

  The AAFCO has defined a minimum range of 8-17% on a dry matter basis but studies have shown that cats do very well on diets much higher in fat. The Weruva foods are within the AAFCO range so they aren't too low in fat in that regard. It is really for the reason I stated above that *I* think it is too low in fat. 

 

[mschauer]

Mid-week Update

Mickel weighted in at 25:10 (lbsz) which is only 1 oz down from Saturday. I was looking for something more like 3 oz. I'm really beginning to question the accuracy of the calorie information I'm getting from both Weruva and by Nature. There's more on that below. 

He is getting a mix of Weruva (Paw Lickin Chicken or Peking Ducken) and by Nature (Chicken, Turkey or Beef) to equal 153 calories a day. That comes out to about 7 oz of food more or less depending on the mix. I'm going to drop it down to 145 calories a day or about 6.5 oz. That's still a decent amount of food so hopefully he won't feel too deprived between meals. I'm still splitting his food into 4 meals a day.  

I heard back from the by Nature folks. They insist that the calorie content listed on their web site is correct. That means the 95% foods I am using supposedly really are only 20 kcals/oz. Given their guaranteed analysis shows a minimum of 10% protein and a minimum of 6% fat I don't see how that that can be possible. I was assuming that they are actually 25 kcal/oz, the same as their organic foods which have the identical guaranteed analysis. If they are actually 20 kcal/oz then rather than giving Mickey 153 calories a day I've been giving him 139. Geez. That's a big difference. I still don't believe it. I'm still assuming it's 25 kcal/oz.

At this point the actual calories don't matter. As long as I use the same foods I could go back to tracking by food quantity rather than calories but I'll stick with calories for now.

He seems to quite like his current diet. He seems happy and he seems to be more active. He walks around more and is more inquisitive. But that could just be because he gotten more comfortable in his new home:



It took him 2 tries but he was able to jump up to the sofa seat without any climbing!

I'm working on adding an electromagnetic cat flap to the door of his room. He'll have a transmitter on his collar so that only he will be able to get into his room. That will keep my cats from getting his food. I've already made sure that he can't get at my cats food. Once I get the flap added he'll have almost free run of the house at all times. I worked so hard to get him to leave his room and now he doesn't like to stay in it! Maybe being able to roam around the house will give him a bit more exercise also.

 

[wolcar]

Really, he is so adorable. He looks so cute chillin' on the sofa like that.  I'm glad he jumped up on his own. My sister's father in law can't even do that without a little bit of climbing ;-) lol  Maybe it's like how people lose weight...sometimes you can't see it every week. Maybe next week or the next few days he'll have more.  I'm in the same boat. I get on the scale with my Ulysses and our #'s together on the scale come down but I'm the one losing the weight - He doesn't seem to be.  he he

Well,  from what you're saying about the food and whatnot I'm a little skeptical that their #'s are accurate. 

How do you measure out the ounces or do you just eye it up? 

 

[mschauer]

How do you measure out the ounces or do you just eye it up? 

Oh no, I can't eyeball amounts accurately at all. I use a kitchen scale. And I measure in grams which is easier than measuring in ounces when the amounts are small.

I really don't think I know how many calories he is getting. That's annoying because when I switch him to raw I won't know how much to start him at.

Oh, well. The plan for now is to get him losing steadily at a rate of 1-2% a week on the mix of Weruva and by Nature. I won't have to worry about how much raw to give him until then.

 

[ldg]

First of all, WHAT a love he is! Really, that's just too cute! And for Mikey JUMPING up there on his own! :lol3:

I heard back from the by Nature folks. They insist that the calorie content listed on their web site is correct. That means the 95% foods I am using supposedly really are only 20 kcals/oz. Given their guaranteed analysis shows a minimum of 10% protein and a minimum of 6% fat I don't see how that that can be possible.

Well, given the calorie information is known for the fat vs protein in the food - and the analysis is guaranteed - exactly how do they explain the discrepancy? :dk: Be interesting to see if you can get that information out of them.

 

[cinderflower]

this is the first time i've read this.  POOR KITTY!!! gordo.  but i'm glad he's losing.  i bet when you get him to a reasonable size, you'll want to keep him.  i would.  i'm kind of possessive like that, if i had a cat to rehabilitate because someone just sorta kinda screwed it up and then said, "here," if i got him da bird jumping size, i'd keep him forever so no one else could ever undo all my hard work.  but that's just me

can you get hound & gatos where you are?  all their nutrition info is on their site, and it's a reasonably priced food.  although it's cheaper in the pet store than the weruva, it's more than where i get it at doggiefood.com.  they don't carry hound & gatos though, i've meant to ask them why but i haven't.  it's pretty new, started in 2010.  it's anywhere from 1.47 to 1.52 a can, the rabbit, salmon and pheasant are more expensive than the beef and chicken.  it's about 197-218 per 5.5 oz. can. (if i buy a case online the weruva is 1.34 for 5.5 oz.)

have you seen those balls and toys where they have to play with it to get their food?  i don't know how it would work with wet food though.   my older two cats just figured out how to make all the food fall out at once NOM NOM NOM so maybe not, but you could put little bites all around so he had to look for them?  would you think that was too mean or labor-intensive?  i'd think he'd get kind of happy "discovering" his food. and it would take him longer to eat so more time to register "full" with his brain (if that part isn't broken forever) and also keep him from eating everyone else's food.  i have a cat who is a garbage collector, he goes around eating whatever anyone else leaves, so i've just started giving him less food in his inital portion because i know he's going to make up for it later.  

he sticks to his room because the other cats call him names lol.

and as far as exercising, when you're that overweight, little things are big.  i watched one of those awful, "i got fatter than my house," shows on TLC, with the biggest man in the world, in mexico.  i think he weighed a ton, and just sitting up in bed and pumping like bicycle pedals on the triangle you pull yourself up with was all he could do, but it was enough.  i don't know what finally happened to him though.  seriously, he looked like he was drowning in fat.  he couldn't even stand up.  i'll come back and read the rest later.  YAY MICKEY!

 

[mschauer]

First of all, WHAT a love he is! Really, that's just too cute!

And

for Mikey JUMPING up there on his own!

He's such a sweetie! I can't wait to get the cat door installed so he can come and go from his room as he pleases. I think he will be very happy about that. I just hope the cat door I got is big enough! I'm pretty sure it is. I put the collar with the magnetic on him last night for him to get use to. He had no reaction at all. I've never seen a cat that didn't try at least a little to remove a collar.  

   That is just how easy going this guy is.

I heard back from the by Nature folks. They insist that the calorie content listed on their web site is correct. That means the 95% foods I am using supposedly really are only 20 kcals/oz. Given their guaranteed analysis shows a minimum of 10% protein and a minimum of 6% fat I don't see how that that can be possible.

Well, given the calorie information is known for the fat vs protein in the food - and the analysis is guaranteed - exactly how do they explain the discrepancy? 

 Be interesting to see if you can get that information out of them.

Communicating with them is a little awkward because the customer rep has to convey questions to an off site nutritionist and my questions seem to loosing something along the way. In the last exchange I wrote:

I don't understand how a food can be a minimum of 6% fat, as is stated on in the guaranteed analysis of the 95% products, and have only 20 kcal/oz especially given that the organic products have an identical GA and are stated to have 25 kcal/oz but I guess I will just have to go with that.

The response was:

These are calculated values based on composition analysis.  We may have more protein and fat in the organic that the GA minimum indicated and that is why the value for the Organic is higher.

It isn't the calories in the organic that I question. It's the calories in the 95% products. I don't see how a food with a minimum of 6% fat can be that low in calories.

But, I think it is pointless to pursue it any further. The customer rep also represents World's Best Cat Litter. When I told her I use it she sent me 5 $5 off coupons for it. That's a good customer relations tactic. I'm left with a good feeling even though I didn't get a satisfactory answer to my question. 

 

[mschauer]

this is the first time i've read this.  POOR KITTY!!! gordo.  but i'm glad he's losing.  i bet when you get him to a reasonable size, you'll want to keep him.  i would.  i'm kind of possessive like that, if i had a cat to rehabilitate because someone just sorta kinda screwed it up and then said, "here," if i got him da bird jumping size, i'd keep him forever so no one else could ever undo all my hard work.  but that's just me

I am really worried that I'll get him down to a reasonable size and then despite strong warnings not to his adopter will free feed him dry food and he'll explode again. That's a long ways down the road though.

can you get hound & gatos where you are?  all their nutrition info is on their site, and it's a reasonably priced food.  although it's cheaper in the pet store than the weruva, it's more than where i get it at doggiefood.com.  they don't carry hound & gatos though, i've meant to ask them why but i haven't.  it's pretty new, started in 2010.  it's anywhere from 1.47 to 1.52 a can, the rabbit, salmon and pheasant are more expensive than the beef and chicken.  it's about 197-218 per 5.5 oz. can. (if i buy a case online the weruva is 1.34 for 5.5 oz.)

197-218 calories per 5.5 oz indicates the food is high in fat. That's something I've found is common with the products that are supposedly high in "meat". The natural assumption is that "meat" means lean meat. It doesn't. Being high in fat doesn't make it a bad product but I don't think it is a good choice for a weight lose diet. The H & G isn't as bad in that regard as some of the other "high meat" products though.

 

[cinderflower]

"I am really worried that I'll get him down to a reasonable size and then despite strong warnings not to his adopter will free feed him dry food and he'll explode again. That's a long ways down the road though."

i know it's down the road, i just can't help but feel that animals (dogs or cats or anything that can get obese) are sort of like people, with a tendency to relapse, like kirstie alley or carnie wilson lol.  but maybe you ended up with a ricki lake one.  it would be a job to keep him at a healthy weight because he's already learned how to eat for recreation.

i mostly use h & g and weruva.  it sort of balances out, to me.  and i could be wrong, that's just the conclusion i came to.  i know it's high in fat, because there's no way they could sell that much "meat" (muscle meat off the bone) for the price, but the customer rep was nice to me.  (i'm going to angle for more coupons though lol).  i'm pretty sure they use a lot of liver too, because it all has that odor.  it doesn't bother me, except that the liver might be the worst part of an animal to eat.  it's kind of like an aquarium filter, but i always liked it.  it's not ideal of course, but i didn't get the run-around or ignored so i keep buying it. to me, fat calories for cats are better than carb calories.  as long as it has enough protein to keep them full for awhile.

i have one cat who struggles to keep weight on, one who's dying to get fat, and one who does a pretty good imitation of being anorexic but he's not lost any weight in a month plus i catch him eating when i turn on the light sometimes, so i think the mixture of high fat/ low fat is okay, except guess which ones prefer which? (of course.)

 

[mschauer]

Week 6 Update

On Saturday Mickey weighted in at 25:8 (lbsz). That's 2 oz down from his mid-week weight in on Wed. So that's only a total loss of 3 oz since last week. Considering I lowered his food quantity on Wed I was hoping for a loss of about 3 oz. Maybe this weeks mid-week weight in will show a faster rate. I'm going to keep him at 145 calories or about 6 1/2 oz for now. 

I got the electromagnetic cat flap installed in the door to Mickey's room. The flap is meant to prevent my cats from eating his food while giving him access to it. To get out of his room all he has 

to do is push on the flap. It isn't latched it that direction. But to get into his room the magnetic on his collar opens a latch so the flap can be pushed in. 

It didn't take him long to figure out how to get out of his room. Getting back in though has proved to be a problem. He seems to be having trouble learning to push the flap in while the latch is open.

I've pushed him through several times but that doesn't seem to have given him the idea that he can get through it on his own. 

There are a couple things I can try. I hope he learns how to do it. Otherwise I'm going to have to keep him closed up in his room until he has finished all his food. 

Sigh. I thought the flap was going to be a fantastic solution. I'm still hoping it will be. 

 

[ldg]

It will be. I know you probably don't want to do this, but food might be the motivator that gets him through that flap into the room. A few treats might not hurt? :dk:

 

[mschauer]

It will be. I know you probably don't want to do this, but food might be the motivator that gets him through that flap into the room. A few treats might not hurt?

Well, I thought food would be a big motivator but it seems it isn't. He was outside his room all night Sunday night and couldn't get to his food. I don't think he even tried to get in the room because I never heard him banging on the flap. He made quite a racket banging on the inside of the flap before he learned to go through in that direction.

I think the biggest motivator for him is me. I have a camera in his room that records video when motion is detected. Saturday night I put him in his room before I went to bed. The video that was recorded showed him walking all around the room, playing with his toys, eating and generally being fairly active. But he never went near the door until I got up the next morning and started making noise. Then he immediately went through the flap and came to where I was. Any time I am home he stays right near me. 

I tried going into his room and leaving him outside so that he would have to go through the flap to get to me but he was content to just lay outside the door.

So, one thing I might try is to temporarily reverse the door so that that he has to learn to go through the latched side of the door in order to get out of his room. But first, I've taped a second magnet to the door so that the latch stays open all the time so he can get into the room the same way he gets out, just by pushing on the flap. I'm hoping that if he learns he can get though that way on his own that when I remove the second magnet he will try harder to get in.

 

[ldg]

Oh good idea!

And HOW can you still consider this kitty a foster, knowing how much he loves you?! Aw, that's just too sweet!!!!!! :heart2:

 

[mschauer]

Oh good idea!

And HOW can you still consider this kitty a foster, knowing how much he loves you?! Aw, that's just too sweet!!!!!!

I think I'll be very tempted to keep him but I really think he would bond just as closely with someone else. He's just a sweet boy.

 

[cinderflower]

too bad the cat flap is too small for you to get down and show him what to do lol.  he might just be a slow learner at some things.

wow, you have a video recorder set up.  you could have a "paranormal activity 4: the cat's story."

there is a way to calculate calories based on fat content, etc. but it's not that easy, and if they are adamant about the ingredient amounts it makes it harder.  the other thing is that being that overweight probably messes with his metabolism so it's hard to calculate how many calories he actually burns.  there are really overweight people who insist they don't eat that much, and while a lot of them aren't truthful, there are those who consume far fewer calories than you'd think in relation to their size.  if they aren't active their metabolism just shows to almost nothing.  if you can figure out the exact calories in the food, when he doesn't lose any weight at all, that's exactly what he's burning.

but that's going to change, because obviously the more weight he loses, the more active he will be but the more slowly he'll lose.  his metabolism is going to revert to normal the more small meals he eats per day and exercises.  it's probably not that easy to get around when you weigh 460 lbs. (which isn't all that accurate but if you calculate it based on a "normal" weight of 150 lbs. for a person and 10 lbs. for an average cat, that's about what it comes to.)

i knew about, but didn't really know why, hepatic lipidosis is such a big risk.  he would be even more at risk because when a cat doesn't eat, or eat enough, their bodies go straight to any fat reserves, and their livers are meant to process protein, not large amounts of fat.  (you probably already knew this but i didn't

).  i guess a lean cat would probably just burn muscle if it didn't have any fat, so a skinny cat could probably go longer without food (as in lost and starving outside) without developing a fatty liver. (but could still develop h.l.)

so as long as he's eating (just less than he burns) he'll lose weight, 1-2% a week.  so you're going to be doing this for a long long time lol.  lisa pierson says a cat's diet should be 45/45/10 (less than 10% carbs) but that's for a normal cat, so i don't know what percentage you would use since mickey is burning his own fat, hopefully.  even people on diets still need fat, just not necessarily like the atkins diet.

i think this country is probably ready for bariatric vets.

 

[ldg]

I think I'll be very tempted to keep him but I really think he would bond just as closely with someone else. He's just a sweet boy.

Yeah, I know, in the end they're all traitors. :lol3: It's why fostering works.

 

[mschauer]

Mickel weighted in at 25:5 (lbsz) today. That is 3 oz down from Sat and half way to the 6 oz a week I would like to see. I'm leaving him at 145 calories for now but this weeks loss may be a bit skewed by the cat door fiasco. More on that below but there were days when he couldn't get into his room either when I was at work or overnight and so couldn't get to his food. I always tried to make up for that by giving him more at the next meal but I'm not really sure how much food he got on a couple of days. He never seemed to be particularly starved after one of those times of not being able to get to his food. I have a feeling I'm going to be dropping the amount he gets again but I'll wait and see.

Ok. The cat door. First a quick recap. The cat door is such that when going through it in one direction all it takes is a push to open the flap. But when going through it in the other direction the flap is latched and the latch is opened when a magnet on Mickey's collar is detected. To start with I installed the door so that the unlatched side is inside Mickey's room and the latched side is outside. He caught on fairly quickly that he could get out of his room by pushing on the flap but he has had a tough time with learning to get back into his room from the latched side. The latch doesn't stay open unless the magnet is within a fairly small zone near the door. So a little persistence is needed in going through from that side because in some cases the magnet isn't in quite the right position.

He has had so much trouble getting through from the latched side that he doesn't even try anymore.

It turned out to be a mistake to tape a magnetic to the door to keep it unlatched so he could get used to going through it the same way as the unlatched side, just by pushing on it. Apparently when the latch is open a circuit is completed and so keeping it open drains the battery and closes the latch.

On to plan B. I removed the battery and taped the latch open. He wouldn't even try. I think he was so used to not being able to go through in that direction that he figured there was no use in trying. So, I propped the flap open a bit using a little mouse toy so he might think there was a chance he could get it open. That worked. He did go through it. But, once he goes through one time the toy falls away and so the flap is go longer propped open. Also, it didn't take my mischievous little boy kitty, Toby, long to figure that he can go through it when it is propped open. 

Plan C. I reversed the cat door with the battery installed again so that the latched side is inside the room and the unlatched side is outside. Since he is accustomed to getting out of his room through the flap the hope was that he would be more persist ant in trying to get out even if the latch didn't always open when he was near the flap. That worked in that he did try to get out but when he couldn't get the the flap open right away he sat down and batted at the flap. From a seated position the magnet was too far away so the latch wouldn't open. 

Plan D. I kept the door reversed with the latched side to the inside of the room but removed the battery and taped the latch open. That worked. He goes through the flap in both directions so he can get into and out of his room whenever he wants to. But, so can my cats since the latch is disabled. So far none of them has figured out that they can go through it but I'm sure at least of them will eventually. My hope now is that Mickey will get so used to being able to get through it in both directions that after a few days I'll be able to enable the latch again and he'll be persistent enough to get through the latched side.

Geez, I never thought it would be this difficult to train him to go through the flap! 

 Sigh, I hope Plan D works for a few days at least. 

When he gets down to 25 lbs I'll post another picture of him. Any guesses about whether we'll be able to see a difference?

 

[ldg]

3 ounces! OK - I'm sorry he didn't have access to his food as intended, but seems like it worked - and seems like he wasn't overly stressed, and that's the key, really.

I have no idea if we'll be able to tell the difference via pictures in 27 vs 25, but can't wait to see!