Long Term Introduction Questions

[Datpips]

We adopted a 3yr old male cat about.. a year and a half ago? We're still struggling with the 'cat introduction' process.
I would like opinions on when we should just stop separating them. Obviously I don't want to just stop separating all together, I'd like to gradually get to that stage. So to accomplish that I figure we'd have more frequent supervised times together. My conflict with this is I'm not sure how often is too often, which cat goes back into the segregated room after the interaction, and how much time each cat would end up spending with us. Currently they're only together for 5-15mins three times a day. We switch cats whenever we feed. Morning meal, supper meal, and before bed meal. So they rotate between being out from the 'cat room' and being in the cat room. Let's say between the supper meal and before bed meal we add another supervised cat time. Would the cat that was previously in the room go back into the room? Would that stress them out? Or does the cat that was currently out of the room go into the room, adding a fourth switch.
Am I complicating this?

I would also like opinions on when we're dragging out the 'introduction process' for too long. Is it causing more harm than good? They haven't had a serious fight in quite some time. But Pip's (our resident cat) Still like to occasionally be aggressive towards Moose (new-ish cat) when we don't constantly distract her. I would eventually like to get a video to post showing their interactions.

When do we potentially stop being over-protective parents and let them work it out? I want them to communicate with each other. I'm just worried every close encounter they have is negative and is setting them back. As long as they're not yowling in pain? No blood? What about little fur tuffs? What is considered too aggressive to not have us intervene? I want to stop separating them and have them realize they're going to have to live with each other. I don't expect them to ever be best buds but I want them to be stress free when they're together.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Here's my two cents, I think if you are having company and busy happenings for the next couple weeks, maintain what you've been doing. Routine will help the cats stress less.

Then start letting the cats have a lot more time together. Keep swapping room time so that each cat gets roaming time.
They need to work out heirarchy, and as long as there's no blood, don't intervene.
(If a serious fight gets going, use a piece of cardboard to separate them so you stay safe).
Whether they become stress-free with each other is totally up to them

 

[rubysmama]

I'll preface this by saying, I've never had 2 cats at the same time, so therefore have never done cat introductions.

However, I have read lots of threads and info, and I you're at the point to let them spend more time together and see what happens. If it really goes badly, then separate them, and start again.

Some hissing, growling, swatting is to be expected. But, yes, it's fur flying, blood, and a terrified cat you want to watch out for.

Here is a new TCS article called Are My Cats Fighting Or Playing? which includes pictures and videos that help to explain the difference, and the body language to watch for.

And in case you need to start again:
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction

Good luck.

 

[duncanmac]

You've kept the cats separated for a year and a half? What happens when they do interact? A little hissing, batting and chasing is OK. Some wrestling is OK. What do they do when they see each other?

If everything is OK, then just keep extending their together time based upon the cats reactions to each other and your ability to supervise. My resident cat was highly territorial and it took six to eight weeks to integrate my new boy into the mix (and the resident cat got fixed in that time too.) There was a lot of chasing and wrestling during that time and even when we let them together over night the first few times. But we watched both boys and saw that there wasn't any aggression and let each interaction get longer and longer until we just let them be together.

When we introduced the new kitten to the two boys recently, there were a couple of days of hissing and then we just let them loose together - they all seemed more curious than anything else. I think that introduction took a week (12 week old kitten and 2 year old cats) In this case they seemed curious and a little defensive but not mean or aggressive.

Just be prepared for random trouble - even now our two boys will go after each other for "no reason" but it usually starts and ends in a minute with no hard feelings afterwards.

 

[Datpips]

This past year and a half has been immensely stressful. I think I need to realize that they have improved since the beginning. Pips used to always hide, get chased, and urinate after Moose would chase her. Blood has been drawn in the past. I might be preventing progress because I'm constantly worried one of them is going to get hurt. I'm going to try and post a video of their interactions and maybe realize it's not as bad as I think.

Whenever they do get in a scrap Pips doesn't stop. Once she's going for Moose I have to separate them. No blood is drawn that I've noticed as of recent, but Moose's fur definitely come out in tufts. Moose never defends himself. He will always lay his ears flat and cower. She's usually okay until they make eye contact. Moose just will stare, never blinking or looking away.

 

[KarenKat]

I literally just watched Gohan pull out a tuft of Olive’s fur and then eat it. We are at about 13 months of integration, and these silly cats still sit and stare at each other, and if they want to leave they do so in slow motion. At some point we just threw our hands up and figured they will eventually sort themselves out. As long as Pip and Moose are not hiding all the time and peeing anymore, going forward with more time together might be good.

 

[Datpips]

Sorry for the delayed update.
So we gathered some videos of them interacting and fighting in hopes for some criticism. Or reassurance they're not as bad as we think. The video ended up being longer than I thought, so my apologies. The short videos don't contain the full duration of one interaction. Also they are in no order, a bit of a mix from different days.

Pips our first "resident" cat is the brown 5 - 6 year old female.
Moose is our "newer" 3 - 3 1/2..? year old white/black male cat.

https://youtu.be/9PFnYal6EyA

 

[KarenKat]

To be honest, I felt like I was watching our Gohan and Olive interact. They might not have direct fights quite so much (usually one pounce and the aggressor freezes and then slow-mo walks away), and they swish their tails slightly less, but it’s basically them.

I am no cat interaction expert, this is my first one too. But it seems like you are taking all the steps I would - toy and treat distraction, allowing some altercations to play out and not physically placing yourself in harms way. We are so in the same place with our two - they can be close, mealtimes are fine, but they are constantly eyeing each other and it’s a big deal if they run into each other by accident. Moose and Pip are definitely not two friendly cats at play, but they aren’t trying to murder each other. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come by with better tips, but it doesn’t look too bad to me. Hopefully in time they will learn to coexist with less drama.

 

[Datpips]

To be honest, I felt like I was watching our Gohan and Olive interact. They might not have direct fights quite so much (usually one pounce and the aggressor freezes and then slow-mo walks away), and they swish their tails slightly less, but it’s basically them.

I am no cat interaction expert, this is my first one too. But it seems like you are taking all the steps I would - toy and treat distraction, allowing some altercations to play out and not physically placing yourself in harms way. We are so in the same place with our two - they can be close, mealtimes are fine, but they are constantly eyeing each other and it’s a big deal if they run into each other by accident. Moose and Pip are definitely not two friendly cats at play, but they aren’t trying to murder each other. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come by with better tips, but it doesn’t look too bad to me. Hopefully in time they will learn to coexist with less drama.

Thank you. Since it seems were both in similar situations.. do you leave them out 24/7? Are they separated? How long do they spend separated vs together ?
Thanks

 

[KarenKat]

Right now they both have complete run of the house. At first we would close her up at night or when we weren’t home since we had a few chases that ended in torn claws or a scatch or two when Olive would scramble to get under a couch or chair. After 3 or 4 months we started leaving the door open when we left the house for short periods, and gradually increased it.

 

[shadowsrescue]

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I moved 10 months ago and brought 3 feral cats that I had been caring for and living outside on my deck. I also have 3 indoor resident cats. When I moved I decided the feral cats would move inside.

I have a wonderful sun room surrounded by windows for the 3 feral boys. It took them many months to adjust to inside living. I started introductions slowly and all was going so very very well. The cats had been all out together 24/7 for about a month when our older dog passed away. This completely changed the dynamics of the household and one of the resident cats when kind of crazy. At first it was nothing major, but eventually led to him attacking one of the feral boys. It was a bad attack and required vet care. The cat that was attacked then started to spray. It was not a good time.

Since this time, I now have 2 cats on Prozac. Yet the cats are still separated 24/7. I am working on reintroductions, but it is moving at a snails pace. I too am afraid to allow them to just work it out as I don't want another vet visit due to injury.

I watched your video and I believe that the "attack" that occurs around the 12 minute mark starts off as play. Yet, it does escalate a bit. I think on the positive side, you are able to distract and stop the fight. I would just be concerned if you were not there to put a stop to it. The fur coming out in tufts is not unusual. My resident cats play and I often find tufts of their fur about a wild play session. When cats play fight, they will often only mouth thus leaving the fur wet. When they fight to fight, there is often blood, punctures and lots and lots of fur.

Moose does look pretty afraid. How is he after one of Pip's attacks? Does he bounce back or hide out for a bit.

I feel your pain. I try to just make small bits of progress every day. Separate play sessions for the cats is often a way to get out some of the pent up energy. I try to play with my aggressive resident cat 2x daily. I have seen improvement. Also playing with the timid cats, helps to boost their confidence. I am always certain to allow the cat to "catch" the toy and then when the play session is over, I offer a small meal or extra special food reward. Jackson Galaxy the cat guru has a phrase "Hunt, Catch, Kill, Eat, Groom, Sleep". You play with the cat so they can hunt, catch and kill. You want them to be allowed to catch the prey just like in the wild. Then it is most important they get to "eat". Make it something special. Next if you had a wild play session, they will groom themselves and take a nap.

 

[Datpips]

I have the same feelings, I'd hate for a kitty to get hurt. Or even become skittish and fearful from an negative altercation. At the same time how do they learn each other boundaries without us interfering? I'd like Moose to learn from Pips herself that he's too close, not from us luring Moose away from Pips with a treat.

I want them to communicate, even if that means a small scrap here and there. I just assumed it's preferred to have constant positive interactions between them so they build up trust and self-confidence while being together. Based on Jackson Galaxy's advice anyway.

Is it more ideal to have short, more positive interactions? Or really try and extend their time even if it's negative most days?

Another thing about Pips is.. She has no teeth, haha. So Moose normally comes away from a fight a little soggy. I wonder if the fights would be different if she could actually bite Moose? Would there be more blood from her teeth puncturing him?

Moose normally bounces back to the way he was before the fight, he wont run or hide immediately after. Another confusing thing is Moose does usually bounce back and continues to have this desire to be in her presence. He normally lays near her, or wants to be in the same side of the living space as her. Despite her initiating every conflict. Does that mean their scraps aren't that bad? Or is he slightly oblivious to her boundaries. You'd think by now he wouldn't want to be friends with her after everything... lol

We would like to even have them out together the whole duration we're home. Without constantly watching their body language and distracting them from each other. Only separating while we're away or sleeping.

We actually had them out together for a while hour today. No fights... but there was a lot of luring away with treats. Always distracting one cat. Very tense the whole hour. I don't want to stress them out too much.. But this has gone of for so long ): I just want two happy kitties.

 

[rubysmama]

As I've already mentioned, I've never had 2 cats at the same time, so I have no experience with cat introductions, or cat fights, so every skirmish between cats looks like an all out battle to me. So I'm glad KarenKat and shadowsrescue were able to comment on your video.

I do have a question about when you put one of them in the "cat room". Which cat is in there most often? How does the other cat act when they are separated? Is it a room with the door closed? Or do you have the stacked baby gates setup, so the cats can see each other.

 

[Datpips]

Whenever we feed them they switch. Cat 1 that's out during the night, gets put in the room for breakfast meal. Then cat 2 is out. Around 4:30-5 when its supper they switch again. Cat 1 is out and 2 is in the room. Then once more before bed they eat and switch. There's probably a more efficient way, allowing both cats to have equal time out. But it's difficult

 

[shadowsrescue]

I have always followed the rule to end their interactions on a positive note. Also trying to stop the interactions before a negative event occurs. This is really hard as you are extending their time together.

Having no teeth is a plus, but if she still has claws, she would be using those too. Watch to see if Pip jumps onto Moose and bunny kicks at all. If she is just playing, no claws will be involved.

I do think you are definitely making good progress. But I also think you need to keep moving forward. If you do so too quickly, it might backfire and you will have to restart.

Do you have plenty of high spaces where one of the cats can get up out of the way? Something like cat trees or any other vertical space?

I do think it's also a good sign that Moose still wants to be around Pip. My cat that was attacked, runs and hides when I bring the other cat around. I am using a harness on my aggressive cat so I can keep tabs on him.

Rotating who is in and out is also a plus. My 3 feral boys get run of the house at night and sometimes a few hours during the day if I put the other 3 away. It is certainly a balancing act.

 

[Datpips]

Whenever we feed them they switch. Cat 1 that's out during the night, gets put in the room for breakfast meal. Then cat 2 is out. Around 4:30-5 when its supper they switch again. Cat 1 is out and 2 is in the room. Then once more before bed they eat and switch. There's probably a more efficient way, allowing both cats to have equal time out. But it's difficult

Sorry, I posted my last response before I was finished.. On my phone.
But its difficult when work isnt flexable. The cat room.. is a spare bedroom with just a full door closed. With a little piece of wood blocking the tiny bit between the bottom of the door and the floor. As they would get each other and I wanted to prevent that. I would love to have a glass door there instead.. But being in a rental our options are limited on a budget. If there are any suggestions for a rental friendly door so they could see each other that would be great.

I'm embarrassed to admit but we actually have. 5 cat trees? 1 in the cat room, 3 down in the living space, and the final one in our bedroom. Moose will sometimes jump on the cat tree when they're together.. but they usually don't show much interest unless they're separated. So yes, Pips is much more relaxed and more herself when Moose is in the room. Moose is about the same regardless where Pips is maybe a little more understandably wary when she's out.

 

[shadowsrescue]

I have used a cheap wooden screen door that I attached with tension rods. I then had a baby gate in the threshold of the door for extra protection. I used this when I was at home so they cats could see each other and the cat in the room would be able to hear what was going on in the house. I then moved to a wire barrier that works well too. I will post pictures of both.

20170205_212114003_iOS.jpg

• shadowsrescue
• Feb 5, 2017

IMG_5398.JPG

• shadowsrescue
• Feb 5, 2017

 

[rubysmama]

If there are any suggestions for a rental friendly door so they could see each other that would be great.

Some people use 2 stacked baby gates to block a doorway. And shadowsrescue used a screen door held in place with tension rods. There are pictures of both in the How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide

The idea of using a see through door, is so they can interact, but not hurt each other.

edit: I see shadowsrescue beat me to it, and already posted her pics. You can, however, still check out the stacked baby gates in the introducing cats article.

 

[shadowsrescue]

In the first picture, it is a barrier made out of wire shelving. I used 1 piece of 12' and had them cut it into three, 4' pieces. I then attached with zip ties. I then had to make another barrier that was taller and was able to use one, 12' piece cut into 2 pieces. Here is an article explaining how to make it.

Build a free-standing cat / dog / pet gate with virtually no tools

 

[Kflowers]

Yes,the fights would be different if she had her teeth. What I'm seeing is two cats who are very carefully not hurting each other. They aren't even really fighting, just posturing. They ate together. No one tried to drive the other off their food. This says, to me, they aren't trying for dominance, though Pips top cat, no doubt of that.

You may not realize this, but a cat smack that would draw a deep and bloody scratch on you, won't on another cat because their skin is loose. Most of the time, they start with claws in smacks that will bruise a person, but not another cat. Again it's the lose skin.

If your guys hated each other, you wouldn't have had that little tussle in the kitchen, you'd have had an emergency vet situation. And the aggressor would have taken the other one's food. That is a huge point in cat fights. "I got your stuff!" They don't seem to like each other yet, but that takes time and being around each other.

but as others said keep things even until the rest of things settle down, then go forward.

BTW, you were really really careless with your feet in the kitchen. Without any intention to harm you, one could have run over the tops of your feet claws out in the rush to tussle. That hurts a lot and makes it hard to wear shoes. Just saying.

Not wearing shoes around them is a good idea, just stay off of the main runway.