Long Awaited Moment Is Almost Here, But....

[KatsPurrrsians]

Ok, I need a little help. I purchased a very specific male Persian last year for breeding program. Now he's finally (& slowly) come into maturity. As I've been waiting I used a stud male from another breeder I know for my female's previous heat. All the kittens have been placed in their new homes as of Thursday. So my question is, I'm sure my chosen female will be going into heat asap, if not already. Do I mate her immediately with my chosen (& purchased) male or keep them separated for a little while?

 

[posiepurrs]

There are a lot of things to take into consideration. How long since she had her last litter, is she in condition, any history of issues(such as pyometras, resorbtions, early lose of kittens). Also would possible due date be convient for you? I always took vacation time so I wouldn't worry myself silly. Money set aside in case of unforeseen c-section? These are just some things to consider.

 

[abyeb]

How long has it been since she was pregnant? I think waiting a while might be advantageous, as pregnancy takes a toll on the body, so it might be to her benefit to take some time to recover from that.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

She's had the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years off before I used the stud to mate her with in January. So it's been roughly 3 months since her last litter was born. She's never had any issues during pregnancy or deliveries, however I too thought she could benefit from waiting a month or so to simply give her a break.

But now I'm completely freaking out because my husband just informed me my 4 year old accidentally let her out out last night!! She AND my male! He couldn't find them again until this morning !! He said the Female was outside waiting to get in at back door to the basement level but my male was upstairs on the deck. So they weren't together !

I was out of town from Friday through this morning. So I didn't know any of this until he just told me a little while ago after I got home. I'm obviously VERY concerned about this! When I left to go out of town on Friday my female wasn't showing any signs of heat whatsoever and hasn't since last conceiving in January. Now since being out all night she's crying to get out and has been hovering by doorways all day today. She's not rubbing against anything or showing all the full on heat signs like she usually does when she's ready to mate, just the calling and restlessness. Could she have gone into heat since I left on Friday and mated & conceived last night? I know there are several different stages of heat. The first stage being the one in which they won't accept a male (I'm sincerely hoping this is what I'm witnessing right now). Since I got home a bit ago I'm noticing if my male gets near her she hisses and he walks away. He isn't staying near her like the studs in the past. They didn't leave her side except to give her a few feet of "safe space" until she was ready to accept the stud. My male on the other hand is completely inexperienced. I'm honestly not even sure if he's fully matured yet. He's 13 months old. He wonders the house crying and yowling at night only, every night for over a month.

I've been waiting so long to breed these two and now I'm terrified it could have be compromised since she got out. These fears could just be paranoia on my part because I've waited so long and am anxious to do everything right...including giving her time to recover from last litter. I'm beginning to worry this is going to be more difficult than I'd hoped.

We haven't lived in this house long (my old house was better designed to avoid this issue) and my plan was to keep cats in basement level of house (where my master BR is so I can keep a constant eye on them) but now that they both got out I'm wondering if I need a new designation plan for housing the cats. I want to let her recover (if that's the best option of course) and I certainly can't risk her getting out again.

I know this post is all over the place with my original post question and now this new dilemma. So please forgive the messiness and unorganization of my post. Basically my newest question is , from the behavior I'm describing between she and my male, could she have come into the breeding stage of heat and mated in the 2 days I was gone without any prior signs of heat until today.

As a relatively new breeder, ive only been actively breeding for about a year and a half. I spent 3+ years prior doing research and working towards building my program. But this is the first time I've had my own intact male and female. And again, I'm not even positive my male is fully sexually matured so that's another question mark or dilemma .

 

[StefanZ]

I see you had unluck her. A curse for any breeder. Your programme will be delayed a full year. And you must take a full course of Felv, FIV, and parasite tests, becuase the tom she met was surely unprotected.
On the wife of Ceasar virtue may not even a shadow fall - so you must make all the tests...

And as this pregnancy will be a short time after the last one, you must let her rest. So, you will lose here a full year.
Perhaps better to start a new with some other female, and spay her asap?

................
I though you had another question; to let them mate immediately as she begins to come into heat, or wait a day or two.

Its common to wait a day or two, ie mate in the middle of the heat.
But your stud is young and unexperienced. The chances are big he doesnt know what to do and how, and he will need several days to mature into the insight and decision...

And thus, begin as soon you can, if you want this heat to result.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Thanks Stefanz!

She appears to be coming into full heat this evening/morning. She's now approached my male a couple of times ready to mate. He's been following her around and not leaving her side, however had no clue as to what he was supposed to do. He sniffed her rear but that's about it.
Is there any way to tell if she mated with another male last night? I have a strong feeling she wasn't in full heat yet, if at all , but obviously I can't be sure. No one in my family saw any signs of heat until today & late this evening. I checked her coat and neck for bite makes or any signs of mating as soon as I got home this morning (about 30 minutes after she got back inside safely) and saw nothing. Since my male was with her outside the whole time I also checked him to see if he had any signs of a Tom fight, and again, nothing to indicate he or she came in contact with another tomcat. I know this isn't definitive by any means, but it gave me some sense of security.

 

[StefanZ]

Yes, lets hope for the best. And your boy, as he apparently understands there is something odd going on, and he is supposed to do something, there is good hope it clicks in.

Do you wish them to mate already in this heat? If so, limit their rooms. Ie best if you have them in one mating room, just them, a few suitable furnitures, somewhere for him to flee into after the first mating (he will be attack-chased), some laying places... Food, water, litter, scratching post

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Yes, lets hope for the best. And your boy, as he apparently understands there is something odd going on, and he is supposed to do something, there is good hope it clicks in.

Do you wish them to mate already in this heat? If so, limit their rooms. Ie best if you have them in one mating room, just them, a few suitable furnitures, somewhere for him to flee into after the first mating (he will be attack-chased), some laying places... Food, water, litter, scratching post

You were absolutely correct! He figured it out the next day! They mated 5-6 times yesterday, she had the classic "success " signs after each mating ie; let out the loud ferocious scream then went to intensely rolling and flipping on the floor and licking her genitalia .

If I had it my way I would have waited a month or two before breeding them but after my scare with her getting outside , I decided not to separate them, plus, I had no way of separating them for months . I've heard of teaser toms but have no idea how I would acquire one. It took 2 years just to find the right real Tom lol. So now that the deed is done, I have a few questions and concerns maybe you could help with.

With my male just coming of age, this is the first time I've witnessed first hand a successful mating. I've invested so much time, energy and money into these two kitties and this big moment so I want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly and understanding & I don't just want to assume anything. I've read that females will finish out their heat cycle even if mated on first day of heat. But this doesn't seem to be the case so far. I haven't seen any heat symptoms since they last mated last night. Both male and female have been napping all day. Should I expect to see heat signs later on today or tomorrow ( perhaps they are just tired from all the fun ;-)?

I'm counting roughly 62 days from yesterday, correct? Again, sorry for the obvious questions - I'm just so excited and have been waiting 3 years for these two! All the research, investments, patience, etc. But anyway, back to my question...Since cats are induced ovulators, I'm never quite sure when the actual conception date is, therefore I'm not sure when to start counting. My last litter I believe was after 65 days so I think I began the count too soon.

Now on to my biggest concern...I live in the south and we are having a record year for fleas and ticks. I posted this question elsewhere on TCS so I won't go into too much detail and write a novel, but a few weeks ago I noticed fleas. I'm alway religious about giving my fur babies Revolution on the same day each month. It all began after dog sitting for a friend. I'm afraid the dog having fleas combined with record flea season (due to mild winter) has brought on a huge worry for my now pregnant kitty. Her Revolution doesn't seem to be working at all this time around (nor my male). My groomer suggested they might be building an immunity to it so she recommended Bravecta. My vet doesn't carry this stuff and they just want me to wait out the month and try Revolution purchased from them instead of the online pharmacy I use (I get a better deal and it's always worked great). Now with my baby being pregnant, there is no way I can allow these fleas to manifest for another 3 weeks!! I'm so worried and I'm becoming desperate! What do I do?

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

She's had the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years off before I used the stud to mate her with in January. So it's been roughly 3 months since her last litter was born. She's never had any issues during pregnancy or deliveries, however I too thought she could benefit from waiting a month or so to simply give her a break.

KatsPurrrsians - I've read through this thread a couple of times, and this isn't quite clear to me. You say that, "she's had the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years off before I used the stud to mate her with in January..." which implies that she had a litter in October or November - 'before Thanksgiving' - and another litter in March or early April, and that she's probably been impregnated again - either by your stud male or by an unknown male while outside. You also note that, "she's never had any issues during pregnancy or deliveries," which suggests that she's had other litters as well.

Giving us details is always helpful; can you tell us the age of this particular queen, and her past birthing history (dates of deliveries and the number of kittens)?

.

 

[talkingpeanut]

KatsPurrrsians - I've read through this thread a couple of times, and this isn't quite clear to me. You say that, "she's had the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years off before I used the stud to mate her with in January..." which implies that she had a litter in October or November - 'before Thanksgiving' - and another litter in March or early April, and that she's probably been impregnated again - either by your stud male or by an unknown male while outside. You also note that, "she's never had any issues during pregnancy or deliveries," which suggests that she's had other litters as well.

Giving us details is always helpful; can you tell us the age of this particular queen, and her past birthing history (dates of deliveries and the number of kittens)?

.

Agree that more details would be very helpful! I'm also curious about your plans to separate the cats after this litter, as I'm sure your female will need quite a break.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

This particular queen is 3 years old. This will be her 3rd pregnancy. She had her first litter last spring year and then we used a stud in January. Then she just conceived her 3rd litter a couple of days ago with my 1 year male tom. I definitely want to give her as much time as possible off after this litter without being susceptible to pyometra. I was even thinking of retiring her completely (spayed) and just having her as a wonderful pet. That will of course depend on how everything goes with her this pregnancy etc, but at the very minimum I want her to have quite a while off. I'd love some information on controlling heats, such as teaser toms mentioned in an earlier post, or other methods of achieving time off for queens. This is partly why I chose to use a stud rather than having my own in tact male initially. That way I wasn't battling females in heat with specifically chosen breeding times. But I soon came to realize for the specific program I'm working towards, I needed a my own chosen in tact male. A lot of this is new to me and I still have a lot to learn . TCS and other forums have been a huge help ! The breeding mentor I have has gone through some life changing ordeals with his home life & career and isnt always available when I need him. As I'm sure you all can tell

Hope this helps!

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Just wanted to update everyone on how things have gone. I have 7 eight days old babies ! They are doing wonderfully! Mama is nursing them all like a champ! Best mom ever, this one! I've got her on a high quality, high calorie diet and grabbing some raw goats milk from a co worker of my husbands who has goats and fresh milk. Is this the right kind of milk StefanZ ?

Also, I'm keeping mom separated from dad & all the cats in my house. My kitten scales have gotten misplaced but new ones should be here Sunday. They are all about the same size, nice healthy and fat, eyes are opening on a few already. I've begun making stud quarters on the top level of my house. This will ensure mama gets her much needed brake after this litter. I have another queen who's litter is due any day! Exciting times!

 

[StefanZ]

Yes raw goats milk is the extra.

 

[GoldyCat]

Oooh, love the shiny black one. Do you know which are boys and which are girls?

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

GoldyCat , I sure do ... we have 4 hefty boys and 3 precious girls! 2 flame point boys, 2 red boys, 1 seal point girl, 1 black girl with some tiny whitish spots on her neck and paw, and last but certainly not least, 1 dilute calico girl!

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Papa meeting his baby for the first time ! I supervised the entire 10 seconds I let him meet his son and he did very well. He began grooming him immediately . He's a caretaker times 100! But he's separated from mom & babies & probably won't see his then again for a while so mom and babies can relax with peace and quiet.

I love the little black one too GoldyCat ! She's a little sweetheart & lover!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

View attachment 191596 GoldyCat , I sure do ... we have 4 hefty boys and 3 precious girls! 2 flame point boys, 2 red boys, 1 seal point girl, 1 black girl with some tiny whitish spots on her neck and paw, and last but certainly not least, 1 dilute calico girl!

Now that is a proper catpile! Congratulations to MommaCat!
.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

So you don't think the goats milk would upset mamas tummy? When she gets diarrhea she always goes in my garden tub for some reason. Guess she doesn't want to nasty up her litter box lol. But yeah, definitely want to provide all the extra help I can give her since she's doing a magnificent job taking care of, and nursing these babies. Don't want her to fall ill or weak.

 

[KatsPurrrsians]

Those of you who've helped me out with genetics in the past (regarding this particular litter in fact. I believe most all of you who posted above) were absolutely right! Half (almost half) of them are pointed just as y'all said they'd be ! That was a different post though. I'll have to find it and post update

 

[GoldyCat]

So you don't think the goats milk would upset mamas tummy? When she gets diarrhea she always goes in my garden tub for some reason. Guess she doesn't want to nasty up her litter box lol. But yeah, definitely want to provide all the extra help I can give her since she's doing a magnificent job taking care of, and nursing these babies. Don't want her to fall ill or weak.

Fresh raw goat's milk should be fine. That's what is recommended for bottle babies. The only time I've had problems with diarrhea in foster kittens was when I ended up with processed goat's milk. (Bad choice on my part to go ahead and use it).